Clause 9. — (Power of Board of Trade to require information.)

Part of Orders of the Day — Import Duties Bill. – in the House of Commons at on 22 February 1932.

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Photo of Mr Valentine McEntee Mr Valentine McEntee , Walthamstow West

The hon. Member for South Bradford (Mr. Holdsworth) does not apear to have read Clause 9, to which these Amendments relate. The Clause deals with the power of the Board of Trade to require information as to the condition and progress of trade and industries engaged in the manufacture in the 'United Kingdom"— and so on. If the object of the Board of Trade is to obtain information, surely they would desire to obtain accurate information on the points in question, and, if that be their desire, the returns ought at least to be understandable. The hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Government Bench said that the sole object of the Government was to ascertain the volume of production, and later on he said that, by the value which is mentioned in the Bill, he meant the selling value. But what is the selling value? There is no such thing. Any economist will tell you that. You can talk about the selling price of an article, but but to talk about its selling value is nothing but nonsense, and it was obvious to me that a later speaker, who said that the hon. Gentleman did not understand the economics of the Bill, whatever else he may have understood about it, was speaking perfectly truly.

There is no such thing as the selling value of anything. It has a selling price, which varies from day to day. It is governed by circumstances, and no one can say to-day what the circumstances will be to-morrow. For instance, normal selling prices in our markets to-day are entirely different from what they were 12 months ago. The selling price is governed by a number of factors, which cannot be determined from day to day. The cost of production enters into the value of the article, but has very little to do with the price. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that he should go to some of the old Liberal economists, if he does not like to read the more up-to-date Socialist economists, and get some of the elementary knowledge which they give as to the meaning of price and value.

I take it that, if information is wanted, it is full and useful information that is wanted, and not only for the Board of Trade. They are not the only people concerned, and the manufacturers are not the only people concerned; the public generally ought to be, and no doubt will be, far more interested than either, and the public have a right to know some of the particulars for which we are asking here. It is my definite opinion that an attempt is being made to keep back from the public that information which they have a right to expect from a Government that calls itself a National Government. Why should they not know the real cost of production? Why should they not know what are these overhead charges that firms and companies will put forward when these inquiries are being made?

Not very many years ago, I had personal knowledge of a firm of timber merchants in the city, whose overhead charges were entirely and deliberately misleading. My hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) has referred to some of the practices that are followed in business to-day, and to what he has said I may add that in the case of the particular firm of which I am speaking, and which is still in existence, two aunts of the principals in the business were always paid a regular salary year by year, though neither of them ever visited the business or took any part at all in it. Again, there was a young nephew of the principal, who at the time of which I speak was eight years of age, but whose name was on the books and who was paid a regular salary year by year. It all went into the cost of production, or, at any rate, into the overhead charges. How is it possible to get accurate information if people do as they are doing to-day, namely, setting out deliberately to mislead in their statements and returns?

The hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. Williams) said that it was impossible, in the case of a business owned by an individual, to get the information sought for in the first of these four Amendments. That may be so, but is the fact that it is impossible to get it from all a reason why it should not be obtained in those cases where it can be obtained? We are not asking that company information should be obtained from individual owners of businesses, but we ask that, where a company which comes forward as a company could and ought to give this information, an effort should be made to get the information as accurately as possible. The hon. Member for South Bradford said that the information could be obtained by applying at Somerset House, where the companies are registered; but why should that be necessary? A fee has to be paid, and, although it may be a small one, unless it is paid the in- formation is not available. We desire that this information shall be made public, and that the public shall know what profits are being made, what overhead charges are being charged, and how they are made up.

With regard to the items in the Bill itself the hon. Member for South Bradford says that the number of persons employed is of importance. It may be, but what is of more importance is the character of the people employed—I do not mean their personal or moral character, but whether the labour is just cheap boy labour, or whether it is adult labour. We ought to have some information as to the type of people employed, and also as to the type of wages paid, but that is another matter. I was rather surprised that the hon. Gentleman who spoke for the Government made no reply at all to the important facts which were put forward in support of these Amendments, but evaded them, though, if I may say so, not very successfully, and showed that, as regards part of them at any rate, he had not the slightest idea of the meaning of the terms employed in the Bill. The Bill would be very much strengthened, and the information obtained generally would be of very much greater value, if the Government accepted the Amendment.