Clause 3. — (Value of articles for purpose of Act.)

– in the House of Commons on 19th November 1931.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mr James Milner Mr James Milner , Leeds South East

I beg to move, in page 3, line 11, at the end, to insert the words: (3) All regulations made under this Sec-won shall be laid before the Commons House of Parliament as soon as may be after they are made and, if an Address is presented to His Majesty by the Commons House within the next subsequent twenty days on which that House has sat next after any such regulation is laid before it praying that the regulation may be annulled, it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder or to the making of any new regulation. The Committee will observe that the object of the Amendment is to provide that the regulations which the Bill says may be made by the Commissioners shall be laid on the Table of the House. I can imagine the indignation of hon. Members on the Opposition side in the last Parliament had the Labour Government put forward the suggestion which is made in this Clause to the effect that the Commissioners may make regulations enabling their officers to require any person concerned with the importation of articles into the United Kingdom to furnish to the Commissioners in such form as they may require such information as is in their opinion necessary for a proper valuation of the articles, and to produce any any books of account or other documents of whatever nature relating to the purchase, importation, or re-sale of the articles by that person. I can recall the indignation with which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Holland-with-Boston (Mr. Blindell), who is now sitting on the Front Bench opposite, met much more moderate provisions than these in the Agricultural Market- ing Bill. We should have heard a great deal as to the gross interference with the liberty of the subject in endeavouring to justify the making of regulations that the Commissioners shall demand all books and documents and access to any premises. This is a very serious matter indeed, and I suggest that hon. Gentlemen opposite should give it their careful consideration. The very least thing which this Bill ought to provide is that these regulations should be laid upon the Table of the House. They can be made in a hole-and-corner fashion, and the House will have no opportunity to express an opinion upon them. It will, presumably, be only after expense has been incurred and with difficulty that the importers will be able to know the regulations with which they have to comply.

The regulations are, apparently, going to be of the widest possible character, and I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should reconsider this particular part of the Bill, and possibly accept the Amendment which I have moved. There are precedents for the inclusion of the form of my Amendment. I am inclined to think that under the Weights and Measures Acts, which, I believe, are administered by the right hon. Gentleman's Department and deal with matters which are nothing like as important as the matters likely to be dealt with under this Bill, regulations have to be laid before Parliament. I think that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that we on this side are doing our best at any rate to make the Measure, although we object to it in principle, a little more acceptable, perhaps, and certainly a good deal more workable. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will see fit to accept the Amendment.

Photo of Mr Leslie Hore-Belisha Mr Leslie Hore-Belisha , Plymouth, Devonport

I do not think that my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment need take quite so serious a view of these regulations. They are merely mechanism to enable the Commissioners to ascertain the value of the article, and therefore do justice to the parties concerned, and not in the nature of the orders which the President of the Board of Trade is to make, which, of course, quite properly are to come before this House in the shape of a Resolution for confirmation. This is just an ordinary piece of departmental mechanism. At any rate, I may perhaps allay his suspicions if I tell him that these regulations will be published in the "London Gazette" and in the Statutory Rules and Orders. I hope that that will satisfy him that complete publicity will be given to these very simple regulations.

Photo of Sir Stafford Cripps Sir Stafford Cripps , Bristol East

I am much obliged to the hon. Member for his explanation, but if these Rules are to be published as Statutory Rules and Orders, as I understand he now says they are to be, and not merely as Regulations, will it not be according to practice and precedent that they should be laid upon the Table of the House? Surely this House is entitled to be acquainted with Statutory Rules and Orders if they are to be made in that form. I would point out to the hon. Member that there have before been objections from other parts of the House to

Division No. 13.]AYES.[9.56 p.m.
Atllee, Clement RichardHall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)
Batey, JosephHall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Maxton, James
Sevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)Hicks, Ernest GeorgeMilner, Major James
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)Hirst, George HenryParkinson, John Allen
Buchanan, GeorgeJenkins, Sir WilliamPrice, Gabriel
Cocks, Frederick SeymourJones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Salter, Dr. Alfred
Cove, William G.Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Thorne, William James
Cripps, Sir StaffordKirkwood, DavidTinker, John Joseph
Daggar, GeorgeLansbury, Rt. Hon. GeorgeWatts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. David
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)Lawson, John JamesWilliams, David (Swansea, East)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Leonard, WilliamWilliams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Duncan, Charles (Derby, Claycross)Logan, David GilbertWilliams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Edwards, CharlesLunn, WilliamWilliams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Grenfell, David Bees (Glamorgan)McEntee, Valentine L.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)McGovern, JohnTELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Grundy, Thomas W.Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)Mr. John and Mr. Duncan Graham.
NOES.
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.Bossom, A. C.Clarry, Reginald George
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)Boulton, W. W.Clayton, Dr. George C.
Allen, Maj. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd, W)Bowater, Col. Sir T. VansittartCooke, James D.
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert TattonCooper, A. Duff
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh)Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.Copeland, Ida
Anstruther-Gray, W. J.Boyce, H. LeslieCraddock, Sir Reginald Henry
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Apsley, LordBroadbent, Colonel JohnCrooke, J. Smedley
Aske, Sir William RobertBrocklebank, C. E. R.Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)
Atholl, Duchess ofBrown, Ernest (Leith)Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)
Atkinson, CyrilBrowne, Captain A. C.Cronm-Johnson, R. P.
Baillie, Sir Adrian W. B.Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.Cross, R. H.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Burghley, LordCrossley, A. C.
Balniel, LordBurgin, Dr. Edward LeslieCruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Burnett, John GeorgeDavidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.
Barrie, Sir Charles CouparButt, Sir AlfredDavies, Edward C. (Montgomery)
Barton, Capt. Basil KelseyCalne, G. R. HallDavies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve CampbellCampbell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley)Dixey, Arthur C. N.
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)Campbell-Johnston, MalcolmDonner, P. W.
Beaumont, R. E. B. (Portsm'th, Centr'l)Caporn, Arthur CecilDoran, Edward
Beit, Sir Alfred L.Castle Stewart, EarlDower, Captain A. V. G.
Bern, Sir Arthur ShirleyCayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)Drewe, Cedric
Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest NathanielCazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)Duggan, Hubert John
Bernays, RobertChamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)
Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)Dunglass, Lord
Birchall, Major Sir John DenmanChapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Eales, John Frederick
Bird, Ernest Roy (Yorks., Skipton)Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)Eastwood, John Francis
Bird, Sir Robert B. (Wolverh'pton W.)Choriton, Alan Ernest LeofricEden, Robert Anthony
Borodale, ViscountChotzner, Alfred JamesEdmondson, Major A. J.

Regulations which required the production of documents for the proof of value. I seem to remember that during certain proposals regarding the taxation of land values, there were some very violent protestations made as regards the production of documents simply in order to prove the value so that the valuer might act fairly between the parties. I suggest to the hon. Member that if these are to be published as Statutory Rules and Orders, there can be no harm in laying them upon the Table of the House, because it will not delay their operation in any way, but will give an opportunity for anybody who objects to them to raise the question in the ordinary way by a Prayer, and to have the matter here discussed.

Question put "That those words be there inserted."

The House divided: Ayes, 45; Noes,285.

Ellis, Robert GeoffreyLees-Jones, JohnRosbotham, D. S. T.
Elliston, Captain George SampsonLeighton, Major B. E. P.Ross, Ronald D.
Eimley, ViscountLennox-Boyd, A. T.Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Emmott, Charles E. G. C.Levy, ThomasRunciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Entwistle, Major Cyril FuliardLiddall, Walter S.Runge, Norah Cecil
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)Little, Graham-, Sir ErnestRussell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Erskine-Boist. Capt. C. C. (Blk'pool)Llewellyn-Jones, FrederickRussell, Hamer Field (Shel'ld, B'tside)
Essenhigh, Reginald ClareLyons, Abraham MontaguRussell, Richard John (Eddisbury)
Foot, Dingle (Dundee)Mabane, WilliamRutherford, Sir John Hugo
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)MacAndrew, Maj. C. G. (Partick)Salt, Edward W.
Ford. Sir Patrick J.MacAndrew. Capt. J. O. (Ayr)Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Fraser, Captain IanMcEwen, J. H. F.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.McKie, John HamiltonSandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Fuller, Captain A. E. G.Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Corn'll N.)Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard
Ganzoni, Sir JohnMcLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)Savery, Samuel Servington
Gibson, Charles GranvilleMacquisten, Frederick AlexanderScone, Lord
Gillett, Sir George MastermanMakins, Brigadier-General ErnestSelley, Harry R.
Glossop, C. W. H.Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Gluckstein, Louis HalleMargesson, Capt. Henry David R.Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)
Goldie, Noel B.Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John M.Simmonds, Oliver Edwin
Goodman, Colonel Albert w.Millar, James DuncanSmiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.
Gower, Sir RobertMitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)Smith, Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-In-F.)
Greene, William P. C.Molson, A. Harold ElsdaleSmith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. JohnMoore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)Moreing, Adrian C.Somervell, Donald Bradley
Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.Morgan, Robert H.Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)
Gunston, Captain D. W.Morris, John Patrick (Salford. N.)Soper, Richard
Guy, J. C. MorrisonMorris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.
Hanley, Dennis A.Muirhead, Major A, J.Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph HenryMunro, PatrickStanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)
Harris, Percy A.Nail, Sir JosephStones, James
Hartland, George A.Nail-Cain, Arthur Ronald N.Stourton, John J.
Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.Strauss, Edward A.
Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)Normand, Wilfrid GuildStrickland, Captain W. F.
Heneage, Lieut-Colonel Arthur P.O'Donovan, Dr. William JamesSugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Herbert, George (Rotherham)Oman, Sir Charles William C.Sutcliffe, Harold
Hillman, Dr. George B.Ormiston, ThomasTaylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (Pd'gtn, S.)
Hills. Major Rt. Hon. John WallerPalmer, Francis NoelTempleton, William P.
Holdsworth, HerbertPatrick, Colin M.Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Hope, Sydney (Chester, Staiybridge)Peake, Captain OsbertThomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Hore-Belisha, LesliePearson, William G.Thomson, Mitchell-, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Hornby, FrankPeat, Charles U.Thorp, Linton Theodore
Howard, Tom ForrestPenny, Sir GeorgeTouche, Gordon Cosmo
Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.Perkins, Walter R. D.Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Peters, Dr. Sidney JohnWallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'ptn, Bliston)Wallace, John (Dunfermline)
Hume, Sir George HopwoodPickering, Ernest H.Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)Pickford, Hon. Mary AdaWard, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. sir AylmerPike, Cecil F.Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. (M'tr'se)Potter, JohnWatt, Captain George Steven H.
Hutchison, W. D. (Essox, Romf'd)Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.Wells, Sydney Richard
Inskip, Sir Thomas W. H.Procter. Major Henry AdamWeymouth, Viscount
Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, c.)Purbrick, R.Whiteside, Borras Noel H.
James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.Raikes, Hector Victor AipinWhyte, Jardine Bell
Jamieson, DouglasRamsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Jennings, RolandRamsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)Wills, Wilfrid D.
Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)Ramsbotham, HerswaldWindsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonul George
Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)Ramsden, E.Withers, Sir John James
Ker, J. CampbellRea, Walter RussellWomersley, Walter James
Kerr, Hamilton W.Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)Wood, Major M. McKenzie (Banff)
Kirkpatrick, William M.Reid. James S. C. (Stirling)Worthington, Dr. John V,
Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.Remer, John R,Wragg, Herbert
Lamb, Sir Joseph QuintonRenwick, Major Gustav A.Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'V'noaks)
Law, Sir AlfredRhys. Hon. Charles Arthur U.
Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)Roberts, Aied (Wrexham)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Leckie, J. A.Robinson, John RolandSir Victor Warrender and Mr. Blindell.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.