Orders of the Day — FINANCE (No. 2) BILL. – in the House of Commons on 1 October 1931.
This Clause raises a point that is different from but cognate to the point that was raised on Clause 22, and though it is different, I think it can be attacked and defended on the same lines as those which were used on the respective sides of the Committee on the former Clause. Therefore, I do not propose to say very much with regard to it, but we shall vote against it. I gathered from something that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said earlier that he was somewhat doubtful about this Clause and that he had only come down in favour of it after a good deal of hesitation. Our hesitation is apparently a little stronger than his, and we have come down in our minds against this Clause. The existing provision in regard to the 5 per cent. War Loan has proved a very inconvenient one. It postpones the payment of tax, and at the same time, in a certain number of cases—the Chancellor said there were only a few—it enables evasion to take place. For both these reasons, we are opposed to the Clause.
Hon. and right hon. Members opposite will observe that this Clause is merely permissive. It does not say that the Treasury shall issue a conversion loan on those terms; it merely says that the Treasury may, if they think fit. There is not the least doubt that if we wish to bring a conversion of 5 per cent. War Loan to a successful issue, we must endeavour to encourage foreign money to come into it, and there is not the least doubt that foreign money on a long-term loan is a great advantage.
May I point out that that is quite beside the mark, as we have already, in Clause 22, said that no foreigner shall pay tax at all on either of these loans? We are discussing Clause 23, which, in consequence of what we decided on Clause 22, does not apply to foreigners at all.
As the hon. Gentleman says, this is cognate to Clause 22, but it is germane to the whole question. If Income Tax is to be deducted at the source, it will discourage the foreigner from investing his money. The ex-Financial Secretary to the Treasury is not a foreigner, and cannot know the foreigner's ideas on the subject. I know from my conversation with people who are foreigners, who have interests in this country, that the mere fact that Income Tax is to be deducted at the source will act as a serious deterrent and will prevent them investing their money. It is true that they will not be liable to Income Tax, but it means that it will be deducted from their dividends before they get them, and they will have to go through the cumbersome and laborious task of recovering it. That in itself will act as a deterrent and prevent foreigners investing their money in this proposed loan, and it will make it infinitely more difficult for an effectual conversion to be carried out.
Division No. 511.] | AYES. | [9.7 p.m. |
Acland-Troyte, Lieut-Colonel | Fison, F. G. Clavering | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Foot, Isaac | O'Connor, T. J. |
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Ford, Sir P. J. | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) |
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
Allen, Lt. Col. sir William (Armagh) | Fremantle, Lieut.-Celonel Francis E. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
Aske, Sir Robert | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) |
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover) | Gauit, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton | Peake, Capt. Osbert |
Atholl, Duchess of | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Penny, Sir George |
Atkinson, C. | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) | Perkins, W. R. D. |
Baldwin, Rt. Hon, Stanley (Bewdley) | Gillett, George M. | Peters, Dr. Sidney John |
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) | Gilmour, Lt. Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Power, Sir John Cecil |
Balniel, Lord | Glassey, A. E. | Pybus, Percy John |
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson |
Beaumont, M. W. | Gower, Sir Robert | Ramsbotham, H. |
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Rathbone, Eleanor |
Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central) | Granville, E. | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
Berry, Sir George | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Reid, David D. (County Down) |
Betterton, Sir Henry B. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Remer, John R. |
Birchall, Major sir John Dearman | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Rentoul, Sir Gervals S. |
Blindell, James | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. |
Boothby, R. J. G. | Gritten, W. G. Howard | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) |
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) |
Boyce, Leslie | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
Bracken, B. | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
Briscoe, Richard George | Hanbury, C. | Ross, Ronald D. |
Broadbent, Colonel J. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. |
Brown, Brig. Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Harris, Percy A. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
Buchan, John | Hartington, Marquess of | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) |
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
Cadogan, Major Hon, Edward | Haslam, Henry C. | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
Caine, Hall-, Derwent | Henderson, Capt, R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Savery, S. S. |
Campbell, E. T. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Scott, James |
Carver, Major W. H. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. |
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome |
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth, S.) | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Simms, Major-General J. |
Cazalet, Captain Victor A | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Witnington) |
Chadwick, Capt. Sir Robert Burton | Hunter, Dr. Joseph | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (Caithness) |
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Skelton, A. N. |
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) | Hurd, Percy A. | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
Christie, J. A. | Hurst, Sir Gerald B. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) |
Clydesdale, Marquess of | Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
Cobb, Sir Cyril | Inskip, Sir Thomas | Smithers, Waldron |
Cockerill, Brig.-Generel Sir George | Iveagh, Countess of | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Somerset, Thomas |
Colfox, Major William Philip | Jones, Rt. Hon. Lelf (Camborne) | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
Colman, N. C. D. | Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
Colville, Major D. J. | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
Conway, Sir W. Martin | Knox, Sir Alfred | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
Cooper, A. Duff | Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland) |
Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. |
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Latham, H. P. (Scarboro' & Whitby) | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. |
Cowan, D. M. | Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) | Thomas, Major L, B. (King's Norton) |
Cranborne, Viscount | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Thompson, Luke |
Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. | Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) | Thomson, Sir F. |
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Lleweilln, Major J. J. | Thomson, Mitchell-, Rt. Hon. Sir W. |
Crookshank, Capt, H. C. | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) | Todd, Capt. A. J. |
Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Long, Major Hon. Eric | Train, J. |
Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Lymington, Viscount | Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon |
Davies, Dr. Vernon | McConnell, Sir Joseph | Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) |
Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
Dawson, Sir Philip | Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
Denman, Hon. R. D. | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. | Macquisten, F. A. | Wells, Sydney R. |
Dixon, Captain Rt Hon. Herbert | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | White, H. G. |
Duckworth, G. A. V. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) |
Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Margesson, Captain H. D. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
Dugdale, Capt. T. L. | Markham, S. F. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
Eden, Captain Anthony | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Withers, Sir John James |
Edge, Sir William | Millar, J. D. | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
Edmondson, Major A. J. | Milne, Wardlaw-, J. S. | Womersley, W. J. |
Elliot, Major Walter E. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) |
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) | Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k) |
Everard, W. Lindsay | Muirhead, A. J. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton |
Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Nall-Cain, A. R. N. | |
Ferguson, Sir John | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
Flelden, E. B. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Captain Austin Hudson and Viscount Elmley. |
NOES. | ||
Adamson. Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Potts, John S. |
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Price, M. P. |
Alpass, J. H. | Henderson, W. W. (Middx, Enfield) | Quibell, D. J. K. |
Arnott, John | Herriotts, J. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
Attlee, Clement Richard | Hicks, Ernest George | Ritson, J. |
Ayles, Walter | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Romeril, H. G. |
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hopkin, Daniel | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
Barr, James | Horrabin, J. F. | Samuel, H. Waiter (Swansea, West) |
Batey, Joaeph | Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) | Sanders, W. S |
Benson, G. | Jenkins, Sir William | Sawyer, G. F. |
Bowen, J. W. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Scrymgeour, E. |
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Kelly, W. T. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
Broad, Francis Alfred | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Shield, George William |
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Shillaker, J. F. |
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Kinley, J. | Simmons, C. J. |
Buchanan, G. | Kirkwood, D. | Sitch, Charles H. |
Burgess, F. G. | Lawrence, Susan | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland) | Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) | Stamford, Thomas W. |
Cameron, A. G. | Lawson, John James | Stephen, Campbell |
Cape, Thomas | Leach, W. | Strauss, G. R. |
Chariston, H. C. | Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) | Sullivan, J. |
Clarke, J. S. | Longden, F. | Thurtle, Ernest |
Cluse, W. S. | McElwee, A. | Tillett, Ben |
Cocks, Frederick Seymour | McEntee, V. L. | Vaughan, David |
Cove, William G. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Viant, S. P. |
Cripps, Sir Stafford | McShane, John James | Walker, J. |
Daggar, George | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Watkins, F. C. |
Dalton, Hugh | Marcus, M. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
Dukes, C. | Marley, J. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
Duncan, Charles | Mathers, George | Wellock, Wilfred |
Dunnico, H. | Messer, Fred | Welsh, James (Paisley) |
Ede, James Chuter | Middleton, G. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Lady wood) |
Egan, W. H. | Milner, Major j. | Whiteley, William (Blaydon) |
Freeman, Peter | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Morley, Ralph | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) |
Gossling, A. G. | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Mort, D. L. | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Noel Baker, P. J. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
Groves, Thomas E. | Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) | Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) |
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) | Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) | Young, Sir R. (Lancaster, Newton) |
Hardie, David (Rutherglen) | Palin, John Henry. | |
Hardie, G. D. (Springburn) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
Haycock, A. W. | Picton-Turbervill, Edith | Mr. Hayes and Mr. Charles Edwards. |
I should like to ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what is the exact position with regard to Sub-section (2) of this Clause?
The main purpose of this Clause is to provide for the modifications of the Sinking Fund including those which are necessary to deal with the Hoover Plan. As the hon. Gentleman knows, under the Hoover Plan we are to pay less money to the United States, and, correspondingly, we receive less money from Reparations and Allied Debts; and, unless this modification were made here, it would not be possible for us to "let up," if T may use that expression, that is to say, to modify the Debt charge in respect of our payments to the United States, and we should therefore be in the difficult position of receiving no money at all in the way of Reparations or Allied War Debts and still having to apply to Sinking Fund the amount saved on our payments to the United States. That, obviously, would be inadvisable, and therefore we have taken power to modify it in this Sub-section.
Surely, that is not a complete answer to my question, which related to the whole of Sub-section (2)? The hon. and gallant Gentleman has only dealt with paragraph (a). I should like to know the position with regard to paragraph (b) also.
May I ask, Sir, whether you propose to call upon me to move the new Clause—[Reduction of club duty]—standing in my name.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN:
I must point out to the hon. Member that the Clause standing in his name is out of order. There is no Ways and Means Resolution on which the Clause could be founded.
Would it be possible to have additional taxation without that being stated in the Preamble to this Bill?
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN:
No additional taxation can be levied which is not already covered by this Bill.