Unemployment Insurance [Advances and Payments].

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 22 June 1931.

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Photo of Mr Ernest Brown Mr Ernest Brown , Leith

May I ask the Committee to consider this problem? If these anomalies are to be dealt with, they ought to be dealt with, not by the Bill which we cannot now discuss, but by another Bill—a Bill to deal at once with a schedule of what is involved. A complex Measure dealing with these complex problems would have to be an exceedingly elaborate Measure, which would be very difficult to draft, and, unless it were considered at length, would be likely to hit both the wrong mark as well as the right one. I saw a statement in a newspaper this morning in which it was calculated that 1,000 categories would be needed, but I am doubtful whether it will be possible to deal with it even with 3,000 or 4,000 categories. The hon. Member for Gorbals may say that the anomalies ought not to be touched, but let me say to him, and to those who think with him, that the reply is, surely, this: If the fund is solvent, and men who do not need it are drawing money from that fund, they prevent a higher rate of benefit being paid to those unemployed workers who have no other resources. [Interruption.] That may be nonsense, but it only means that my standard of nonsense and that of the hon. Member are two entirely different standards. Any man who is drawing—and there is evidence to prove that there are such—£2 10s., £3 or £4 a week, and is also drawing benefit, is taking money which might be applied to his needier brothers, if the fund is solvent. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Hon. Members will be able to state their own case in their own way; that is my view. Alternatively, if the fund is not solvent, such anomalies are helping to drive the fund, not merely into bankruptcy, but into disrepute.

There are two sets of criticisms, and they are very interesting. I heard a whisper about the Leith docks, but I would say that at Leith at any time, as I have said it, and the Leith dockers will back my view. The first criticism is that this is the line of least resistance. It is said that it is a highly significant innovation in the direction of Government by Order. That is true. It is said that the policy now being pursued is a policy of cowardice. That criticism is directed at all Members of Parliament, irrespective of party. That is the criticism from the Right. But there is an equally formidable body of criticism from the Left and from behind the right hon. Lady. That says that these proposals are a new inquisition, more subtle than the old; that they are a new machine loaded against the workers and designed to bring them back to the Poor Law; that they are a danger to the defenceless unemployed, and a new weapon by which the unemployed will be under a scheme operated by successive Governments more and more harshly against them. Surely, however, the Commons of this country between them can draw the line between both these bodies of criticism. I am reminded of a story that was told by Mr. Birrell. At the time of the Boer War, he said, he was howled down in the early part of one week at Manchester for being a pro-Boer, and later in the same week, when the Labour party went to Belgium, he was howled down in Brussels for being an oppressor of small nations. His remark was that a man who was howled down from two diametrically opposite points of view twice in the same week must be right. I give the right hon. Lady that story for her comfort.

May I ask the Committee to consider what I think is the genesis of the idea? It cropped up three times in the evidence before the Royal Commission, on two days, the 19th day and the 26th day. It cropped up twice on the 19th day, first in the evidence of Sir William Beveridge, and, secondly, in another form, in the evidence of Mr. G. D. H. Cole, who, let it be remembered, is a member of the Advisory Economic Committee of the Cabinet. I am not sure whether he was then putting forward his own evidence or his evidence as a member of the Committee. The third occasion on which it cropped up was on the 26th day, in the evidence of the Trades Union Congress, for yet another purpose. Sir William Beveridge raised the matter in this form: The essence of the insurance system as described above being the giving of definite rights for a definite period, provision must be made for those who exhaust their rights to insurance benefit. So long as they remain prima facie able to work and desiring to work, they should he treated as an industrial rather than a social problem, by a central rather than a local authority, that is to say, either by the Ministry of Labour or (preferably) a statutory commission supervised by the Ministry. The fact, however, that they have exhausted their claim on the insurance fund sets up a presumption that they may not be able to recover work on their former terms; their long unemployment makes it certain that further unemployment without occupation of any kind will bring demoralisation. For both reasons, something other than mere tiding over by insurance is required. The relief of these men should be a matter, not of contractual right enforced by quasi-legal process before an umpire, but of need, judged by the administering authority, and would be subject to conditions imposed by the authority; the necessity of side-tracking detailed Parliamentary scrutiny of the action taken in individual cases makes it desirable that this authority should be a commission with statutory powers, and not a Minister directly responsible to Parliament. I do not want to trouble the Committee by reading the references to which I alluded just now, but, if the hon. Member for Gorbals will turn to the proceedings of the 19th day, he will find, on page 742, the whole scheme outlined in the evidence of Mr. Cole, beginning at paragraph 38 and continuing to paragraph 49. I will not trouble the Committee or attempt to evade your Ruling by reading out the details, but, as far as I can see from this evidence, the Bill that we shall be discussing later is really based upon that evidence. It is true that Mr. Cole defended the limitation to five years, but his evidence is there, and Members of the Committee will be able to read it at their leisure. I should like to call special attention to paragraph 49, because here Mr. Cole sums up what he conceives to be the aim of such machinery. He says: I should like to make it clear that these suggestions are not put forward with the idea that they can result in any substantial reduction of expenditure. The squeezing out of redundant short-time workers will not save money; and what can be saved under the other heads is likely to be negligible in amount. The object is to meet public criticism of the scheme, and to increase confidence in the soundness of its working. An 'abuse' which costs the scheme little, may, with endless newspaper repetition, be magnified until it causes widespread uneasiness, and suggests, quite wrongly, that large amounts of money are being wastefully and inequitably expended. That evidence is worthy of discussion at length, but I will leave it for the moment. I desire also to call attention to the fact that, giving evidence on behalf of the Trades Union Congress, the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday), the hon. Member for St. Helens (Sir J. Sexton) and others, brought forward the idea of a similar body on the 26th day. If hon. Members will turn to page 971 of the evidence, they will see that it was suggested: That an Unemployment Benefit Board should be constituted of three nominees of the Trades Union Council, three nominees of employers' organisations, one nominee from the Ministry of Labour, and one nominee from the Treasury, together with an independent chairman. The Board should be a full-time statutory body with power to make regulations governing the payment of unemployment benefit so far as the conditions on the lines of the general principles laid down in the Act are concerned, but should not have any power to deal with rates of benefit, which would be laid down in the Act itself. The Committee will see, therefore, that this suggestion was raised from two entirely different points of view. I will only trouble the Committee with one more quotation, from the examination of the hon. Member for West Nottingham. With reference to this board, he was asked: That is rather like a trade board, is it not? His reply was: Oh, no, not at all; it is not intended for that; it is intended to fulfill a much more important purpose. We speak of the married women's abuses; we speak of the short-time worker; we speak of the casual worker. As regards that group first, that differs in almost every town in the problem it presents. The board should, in addition, deal with abuses, perhaps, is not the best word, but should be able to recommend some regulations for dealing, not with all insured persons, but with the particular anomalous positions that they are confronted with. Then the Minister of Labour could in that case place a new regulation, perhaps, on the Table of the House of Commons, where it would have to lie, as other orders have to do, for a given number of days, in order that objections might be taken to it, if there were any. The hon. Member for Gorbals will find, when he comes to oppose the right hon. Lady, that he has a very formidable body of evidence to deal with from every part of the House.

I am sorry to have detained the Committee so long, but perhaps they will allow me a minute or two more. I think it would be folly to exaggerate the Government proposals about anomalies, but I think it would be equal folly to minimise them. In my judgment they begin at the right end, and they contain an ingenious, if dangerous, scheme for ending anomalies before an impartial and objective tribunal. I may perhaps describe them as proposals for pruning, and pruning is one of the most skilled and delicate operations of husbandry. Its object is to cut out weak, dead and imperfect parts, in order to strengthen and preserve what is sound and vigorous, but it must be added that it has to be done at the right season. At any rate, this is a question of a complete turn about. Instead of being able to face the problem in terms of promised increases of benefits and a non-contributory basis, which are impossible, the Government have taken the view that, if there are anomalies, they ought to be dealt with, and dealt with objectively.

I frankly confess, for my own part, that the proposals go further than I thought they would, and I think that that is the view of my right hon. Friends and of the Liberal party. The problems of married women, seasonal workers, intermittent workers and short-time workers are in themselves as complex and diverse as is our civilisation. Most of the anomalies arise from the diversity of the conditions even inside a single industry. Let any Members of this House who want to consider this problem turn to the fascinating report of the Committee on Dock Labour Conditions, presided over by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Sir D. Maclean). On page 9 of that report hon. Members will see what a diversity of occupations there is inside one industry—stevedores; ship, quay, wharf, warehouse, dock and general cargo workers; coal porters; trimmers, tippers and heavers; deal porters; timber porters; timber yardmen; prop carriers; measurers; coal porters, dischargers and fillers; grain-weighers, grain elevator hands, granary hands and loaders; iron ore dischargers, fillers, tippers, shippers and stowers; cold storage workers; meat-porters; fruit porters; fish transit workers; and over a score more.

I have troubled the Committee with the list only to show how complex and intricate is the attempt to treat any Bill in terms of a schedule. If that is true of one industry, how much more must it be of the thousands of industries concerned in these difficult problems of short-time and seasonal labour? If the Government will operate this machine fairly, they will deserve well of the House and of the unemployed. Let those who would seek to shut their eyes to anomalies and abuses remember that lack of pruning may spoil the tree. The money asked for will carry the unemployed army till the autumn. By that time the House will reach the real crisis of its existence, for it must then face the final report or the major issues. It must then decide in what way its liability is to be defined. It must in any case stop the borrowing and meet each year's commitments out of the revenues of the year, otherwise our sinking funds are a mere pretence. Lastly, it must decide how to organise work for the workless on a scale never yet attempted, for, in common with ourselves, the whole world is again thinking in terms of armies—not military armies this time, but unemployed armies. I would ask the Committee and the general public outside, when discussing the dole, never to forget that whole army corps of this unemployed army were in that other Army 14, 15, 16, 17 years ago.