Egypt.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 23 December 1929.

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Photo of Mr Henry Croft Mr Henry Croft , Bournemouth

Lord Lloyd is able to speak for himself and does not need such a champion as the hon. Member, but I doubt very much whether the hon. Member is wise, unless he has some evidence, in suggesting that Lord Lloyd had anything to do with this matter until it was decided upon by the authorities chiefly concerned, namely, the Egyptian authorities. If there was any blame attaching to Britain, I think it was because her statesmen in their great desire to show good will to Egypt, endeavoured to force the Egyptian people to run before they had learned to walk. They failed to realise this essential fact, which has been forgotten in this debate, that Egypt is not Cairo and that, apart from Cairo and Alexandria, where there are the great foreign colleges which have managed to spread their culture over the inhabitants of those two great cities, the population of Egypt, the real Egyptians, are living in mud huts in the great towns and villages of mud all the way up the Nile Valley. If it is seriously imagined that these people, living in these conditions, and, as we have heard from the opposite benches, 87 per cent. of whom cannot read or write, are capable of the Western idea of democratic institutions, I can only say that we are trying to bluff ourselves in suggesting what is not the truth.

The most generous terms were offered to the Egyptian people, giving them complete control over their own affairs, but it must be remembered that it was the extremists of the Wafd who refused those advances, which went, I think everybody agreed at the time, to the extreme limit of concession, and which every British citizen on the spot thought had somewhat passed the point of wisdom. It is these same extremists to whom the Government are now making what certainly appears to be a complete surrender on certain subjects. Only a few years ago, it must be remembered, Egypt was reeling under the murder of the Sirdar, and we also remember the situation when Lord Allenby, when driving to the palace, took an escort of a cavalry regiment with him. On top of this very serious state of affairs, in a situation which the Prime Minister had the generosity to admit was a most difficult one, Lord Lloyd came on the scene. He had not been long in the saddle before he discovered the difficulties and realised that you must be perfectly straight when you are dealing with these people and that you must be perfectly firm, and it was under circumstances of that kind that he realised grave difficulties and asked for, and received the presence of warships at Alexandria, so that their distant influence would affect the situation.

It is not long ago that the present Government, at great cost, quite rightly, very speedily sent warships, troops and aeroplanes to Palestine, but this action was taken after the event. In Egypt bloodshed was avoided, the situation was rendered calm, and the warships were able to leave, while in Palestine very much blood had flowed before the protection was sent and great suffering resulted. Yet I have heard Lord Lloyd blamed in this House for taking that precaution, which cost this country almost nothing. In Egypt, in previous years, we often failed to get our way with a weak policy, and murder and assassination of British officials and soldiers were frequent. Under Lord Lloyd we never failed to get our way on a matter of importance, with a strong policy, yet never a shot was fired.

I hope the Noble Lord representing the Government in another place will remember this fact, when he makes comparisons about the administration of Lord Lloyd, that Egypt during those four years was quieter and calmer, I believe I am right in saying, than at any previous time, in spite of the previous volcanic conditions. I want to call attention once more to the real dangers involved in this proposed Agreement. What does the surrender amount to? The removal of the troops from Cairo, the presence of which alone has guaranteed peace and prosperity in these difficult times, to the Suez Canal zone is one of the most serious decisions ever taken. I cannot for the life of me understand why, if you are going to remain in Egypt at all with your troops, you are not keeping them in a position which is of some strategic use, and where they will be maintained in health and comfort. It is very difficult to understand why the Government are choosing such a position, when it is well known that most of the troubles occur in Alexandria, and there is no speedy possibility of reinforcement, but that the reinforcements would have to come all the way round, and then a long journey to get to the threatened point.

I want to add my protest to the suggestion of sending a battalion of Egyption troops into the Sudan. Why should the Sudanese suffer what they consider this indignity? There is no reason for it, and, if self-determination were granted to the Sudan, it would only be a short time before every Egyptian soldier was forced beyond her boundaries. Again, if you take the great foreign population in Egypt, is it not a fact that henceforth they will be largely at the mercy of the Egyptian courts? If a Frenchman or an Italian or a Greek is murdered, the murderer will be tried, as I understand it, by an Egyptian judge in an Egyptian court, and if, as is not inconceivable, the murderer goes scot free, what will be the international situation I am suggesting what is quite a possible happening, and what will happen if an international situation arises. Is the victim's country going to appeal to their ally, Great Britain, and what moral right will we have to prevent the advent of avenging armies of Italians, or Frenchmen, or Greeks, when we have abdicated and failed to complete the trusteeship which it was recognised by the continent of Europe and other Powers that we had undertaken?

Lastly, we are told that the Egyptian people are to have this delightful Parliament, for which the elections have taken place. Does a single man who has served in Egypt and who has been any length of time in any of the great cities up the river, believe that these people have any chance of expressing their opinions? What happened in these elections two days ago? These fellaheen were marshalled and marched up with a whip behind them, and told which way they were to vote. They cannot read any name, they cannot write, and somebody must have held their hand. The country knows that what I am saying is true, and do not let us deceive our countrymen by asking them to believe that it is not true. If we scuttle out of Cairo with our troops, either this or some other country almost inevitably will have to go back there. We have had placed before the House to-night both the Liberal view and the Labour view. I want to state very briefly the Conservative point of view, which is that where-ever the British flag is to be found that flag should not be hauled down, but that every opportunity should be given to the governed country to learn the art of self-government and gradually work up to Dominion status. That is what has happened throughout the British Empire. Wherever the British flag flies it ought not to be hauled down unless you are absolutely convinced that the population living under that flag are going to be better governed. If you are convinced that they are going to be better governed and the Empire is going to be made more secure, then all is well, but otherwise we are fundamentally opposed to a policy of scuttle such as that which has been adopted by the Government.