Orders of the Day — New Clause. — (Amendment as to disqualifications for receipt of benefit.)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 12 December 1929.

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Photo of Mr Arthur Steel-Maitland Mr Arthur Steel-Maitland , Tamworth

Before going into this Clause in detail, may I reply to the accusation made by the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) and the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Hayday)? It seems to be part of the usual procedure of hon. Members opposite to say that we on this side of the House insult the unemployed. They can point to no phrases of any sort which justify such a statement on their part, but I have not the least doubt that what they say here merely represents what they are prepared to say in the country without a single proof of any kind. [HON. MEMBER: "Actions speak louder than words!"] What I would say at once, and I think any Member on this side of the House would agree with it, is that we regard the unemployed, and hon. Members opposite also regard the unemployed, as a set of men much like any other set of men. There are some particularly good ones among them. The general bulk of them are of the ordinary kind, and there are some weaker vessels and a few bad ones. That is the average sample of all mankind, and we look on the unemployed, and I have no doubt hon. Members opposite also look upon them, just as we do on everybody else.

Taking that as the ordinary plain sensible view we come to the present question and to the reason why we need a Clause introducing conditions at all. It is proper that such a Clause should be introduced. I agree with the Attorney-General that the deserving man ought not to be disqualified and on the other hand, to use the right hon. and learned Member's own phrase, that the work-shy ought not to get benefit. If we take the ordinary view of the unemployed, that they are a sample of ordinary mankind, we must agree that there are some, though not a large proportion, who, properly, ought to be disqualified. The last speaker followed the usual line of attacking Members on this side of the House and said that we turned the magnifying glass on the few who might be work-shy. Obviously we do, and obviously that is what any system ought to do. I ask the House to consider the plain facts of the situation. At the present moment, under the system which has been so criticised, 93 or 94 out of every 100 get their benefit with hardly any question at all and it is only in about 7 per cent. of the total cases that any question arises at all.

I am trying to recall the House to a sense of proportion. In every walk of life a certain number of individuals are, as I have said, weaker vessels than the others and it is with regard to those, and only with regard to those, and not with regard to the 93 per cent. that any question arises. It is in that connection that the whole question of "genuinely seeking work" arises. It is not even with regard to the whole of the remaining 6 per cent. or 7 per cent., but only with regard to about half of them. When we come to them, I am the first to say that after long experience I myself was becoming dissatisfied with the ordinary operation of the "genuinely seeking work" condition, particularly in depressed areas. In the ordinary town with a good turnover of jobs and a diversity of occupations, I doubt if much trouble would exist, but in the really depressed area where there is a large percentage out of work and comparatively few firms working, where men have to be asked to trudge round the district calling on particular firms though there was no real chance of work—that is where the "genuinely seeking work" procedure really breaks down.

As I have explained to the House I had myself already come to the conclusion that we would have to do something to make it betterand I ask the House again to realise that it only affects a tiny percentage, something like 2 or 3 per cent., of the whole of the claimants for benefit. Therefore, the amount of injustice—I am not excusing it in the individual cases where it took place—is about one-third of one per cent. I have not yet heard a single speech from the opposite side that attempts to justify the actual Clause that we are asked to pass to form the whole basis of this system, and to pass for the first time on the Report stage, where, once passed, it can never be reconsidered afterwards. I will deal with the Attorney-General's speech, but with regard to very other speech that has been made, the speakers have contented themselves with pointing out that in a quite small percentage of eases admitted injustice has happened from the existing genuinely seeking work Clause. On that we are all on common ground, but it was up to them to point out, as I hope it will be pointed out by the Minister of Labour, why she is bringing forward this particular Clause and why she has substituted it for the Clause originally in the Bill.

These two things are amongst the things that I am asking her to do. I take the test laid down, not even a week ago, but laid down by the Attorney-General in his speech this afternoon, and I want to have some explanation from that side to show how, under this new Clause, deserving men will get benefit and the small proportion, but at any rate the admitted proportion, of work-shy, to use the Attorney-General's own phrase, will not get benefit. I wish to show some reason why I think this is an extraordinarily hastily drafted and unworkable Clause. That is the reason why, before this Report stage began, I was, in the general interests of administration, anxious that we should have time to go into it and, if need be, time to bring it up again in a better form after consideration.

Take now the question of the notification of vacancies. First of all there is to be notification of a vacancy either by an Exchange or another recognised agency, or by or on behalf of an employer. Haw many vacancies can the Exchanges notify to-day? The most favourable figure is about one-sixth. I see there is a hope expressed that it may rise to a quarter or even a third. I have every practical reason to know that even the figure of one-sixth is probably too favourable, and I will say why. At the Ministry of Labour stress was laid, and very rightly laid, in every Exchange on trying to extend placings through the Exchange. The result has been, I have not the least doubt that where an Exchange manager has come to hear of a vacancy being filled, even though not filled through the Exchange, he puts it down on his list as one for which the Exchange gets credit. I am not a person who brings attacks against administration, but I have known definite cases of that in my own knowledge, and, therefore, I say that 16 to 17 per cent. is on the high side, not on the low side.

How on earth are we going to test, in all the enormous numbers of fillings of jobs that there are, whether a person—I am talking about the small percentage of work-shy at the bottom, who everybody admits exist and who everybody admits ought not to get benefit. How is the Exchange going to test, out of all the enormous number of placings that are made, if only one-sixth are made by the Exchanges? I would ask the House to mark that if it was an average of one in six, it would not be so bad, but it is not an average, it is much less than one in six in some districts and more than one in six in others, and it is much less than one in six in some occupations and more in others. How, under those circumstances, can that work so far as the Exchange is concerned?

Take the question of notification by the employer. Does this House honestly think that employers are really going to notify the Exchanges of every offer of a job or every vacancy that a man might have got with them but which he has not filled? Everybody, like the hon. Member for Nottingham, who has had practical knowledge of the working of the Exchanges knows that to-day the forms in which employers say that a man has left them without just cause do not get sent freely to the Exchange. The ordinary employer does not like to play the detective on workmen, and, therefore, voluntary notification by them cannot possibly be relied upon. I ask hon. Members to think for themselves, from the point of view of good administration, What is an employer really going to do? He is not going to get the reputation amongst the workmen who work there that he is always going to send a note to the Exchange about every vacancy and every person who might have applied for it and who has not done so. He will not risk his own good relations with his men in order to do that.

From that point of view, therefore, that test breaks down hopelessly, unless you make notification compulsory, and I venture to say to this House that you cannot make notification really compulsory and effective until in the end you make it compulsory for the Exchanges to fill the vacancies. What a situation we come to, just to try and make this Clause work! There is not a trade unionist nor a master in a great many of the ordinary trades who would think for a moment that it would be tolerable that the present arrangements that are made between trade unions and employers for filling skilled vacancies with skilled men should be scrapped under a compulsory filling of vacancies by the Exchange. I was, as a Minister, for getting the Exchange to develop its placing work, but we all recognise, as the Minister now recognises, that you do it by persuading employers to do it, and you do it, except for some very highly specialised industries, probably more in unskilled than in skilled trades. If the Government were to try and make it compulsory that Exchanges should fill all skilled jobs in skilled trades which are now filled by arrangements between the unions and the masters, it is the trade unions even more than the employers, but both of them, who would cry out at such a change and who would have none of it. At the same time, that is the only way by which the first part of this plan can really in the end be made to work.

Let me take the second part. Written instructions are to be given by the Ministry, and if it is proved by an officer of the Ministry of Labour that a claimant has without good cause refused or failed to carry out any written directions given to him. What are going to be those written instructions? Take a big firm of steelworks at Sheffield or at Newcastle, where there is h great deal of unemployment and some jobs are going. Is the Minister going to give written instructions to a man saying "They will be taking on men on such and such a day; they have blown a new blast furnace, or something of that kind; go and have to try"? Is he going to say, "Go and have a try"? to others, or would it be only in a specific case? I ask Members to think how it will pan out in practice. Again, how is it going to be proved? I have tried to get the Attorney-General's own object, to see that the good man gets it but that the work-shy does not. How will he prove in that case who is the good man and who is the work-shy? Hon. Members opposite were restive because I interrupted the Attorney-General. I wanted to be quite sure of what he said, and these are the actual words that I took down, which the Attorney-General used as his justification for this part of the Clause: Benefits should go to any man who can show he is doing the best he can to obtain work. But this part of the Clause is entirely incompatible with that. The Attorney- General wants it to go to the man who is showing that he is doing the best he can. In the trade union benefit regulations which an hon. Friend of mine read out that is what they all wanted too. They were there sitting, in a rough and ready way, as a committee knowing their men, having reasons for knowing what vacancies were going, not wanting their funds to be unduly depleted, but wanting their men to show that they were trying to get a job. The Attorney-General says that benefit should go to any man who can show he is doing the best he can to obtain work, but there is absolutely nothing of that in this Clause. The officer of the Ministry has to give written instructions, but one cannot tell how those instructions would work, whether for those generally looking for a vacancy, or for a specific case, and there is absolutely no guarantee than any man should be asked to show that he was doing the best he could to obtain work—none.

Judging by the Attorney-General's test, what is going to be the result? The result, so far as those people who know best can calculate, is shown in the White Paper, which was not in our hands until it was too late for us to consider it or to put down Amendments based upon it. It is all very well for the hon. Member for West Nottingham to say he does not care about the White Paper. I want to ask the Minister of Labour if she does not trust the White Paper. What is important is to know what the Minister of Labour trusts. Does she trust the White Paper or does she not? At least it is the most authoritative expression of what may be likely to happen, and I ask the House to realise just these cases. I do not want to labour it all, but the whole of it goes to make exactly the same kind of contentions that I have been making. Let them take paragraphs 8 and 9 of the White Paper, which have already been quoted: The possibility should, however, not be overlooked that the new provision may have the effect of bringing certain other persons into benefit, for example, married women who have done little or no work since marriage and seasonal workers during the 'off-season.'9. These two classes of cases will serve as illustrations of what in the aggregate may amount to a considerable group of new claimants, consisting of persons who, so to speak, are not really in the market as competitors for employment, but may bold themselves out as such if they are thereby enabled to qualify for benefit. 8.0 p.m.

I put it to any trade unionist here that, if he were asked to give his opinion of that, if it affected the question of his own trade union funds used for benefit, he would not want to have people getting on the funds who were as little qualified as that; and I ask the Minister of Labour to say whether she really stands by that or whether she does not. If she does, it is the most amazing condemnation of her own Clause, and if she does not, we are entitled to ask her what will be the effect. Earlier this afternoon I was pressing to have the chance to examine the Clause. If she takes this judgment of the White Paper on the Clause, it stands condemned root and branch. If she does not take it, why does she bring forward this Clause until she can tell us the effect, when the case which can be made against it is so overwhelmingly strong? That is the first point I ask her.

In the second place I want her to tell us simply and clearly what is the real difference between this Clause and the Clause she withdrew a week ago. If she has really changed her mind I would pay great respect to that, because she has had a great deal of experience. I do not pay so much respect to the Attorney-General's change of mind. It has become a habit. In both cases the onus of proof has been laid on the exchange, and therefore the former objection about its being a subjective test and the rest of it—there was a good deal of misunderstanding even about that—goes by the board. The only change, if any, is, I gather, that any real initiative is as a matter of fact taken off the man, as I have endeavoured to explain. Lastly, I want her to tell us in detail how it, will work. We have an official statement brought forward on the authority of the Minister herself which—hardly a man in this House or out of it would deny it—completely condemns the Clause.

It is for these reasons that I ask the House to condemn the Clause—that we have not as yet had a single real explanation, of the difference between this Clause and the previous one; that there is a difference, I believe, as shown by the White Paper, the Minister has not convinced us about it; and that it is now common property, at least it has been stated in the Press, that the attempt to get Sub-sections (2) and (3) of the old Clause withdrawn was not a real attack upon the Government but one which the Members who made it were prepared to withdraw. [An HON. MEMBER "Where did you get that from?"] It is quite clear from the statement made by the Minister and the Attorney-General that they did not want to have them withdrawn; and, therefore, we are now to have fastened upon this country a change in administration which is due to nothing else than a collapse before a sham attack. Finally I want to condemn this Clause because it takes away all initiative such as the trade unions themselves say is right. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Let me be quite clear again. I say straight away that 93, 94 or 95 per cent or more of those who are unemployed are eager and anxious to get work. [HON. MEMBERS: "Then why all this labouring?"] Because, by the Attorney-General's own statement, the object is that the genuine shall get benefit but not the work-shy. What we want to see is how the right hon. Lady actually carries out that test; because nothing which has been said in the Debate to-day gives us any shadow of justification for supposing that the Clause will do it.