Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

In introducing the Bill for Second Reading the Minister of Labour said that she had tried to avoid legislation by reference, but the ordinary layman on reading this Clause would not have the faintest idea what it was about. We ought to have some statement from the Government of what is contemplated in this Clause, especially as there appear in the Clause the words, "with the concurrence of the Treasury." It looks as if there are to be charges under this Clause which do not now fall upon public funds. The Clause has reference to Section 20 of the principal Act, which provides that a scheme may be submitted to the Minister by joint industrial councils or associations of employers and employés for insurance outside the provisions of the ordinary insurance schemes that we have in mind. I want to know what use is going to be made of this Clause, and why it is necessary. Has anything arisen in the working of the principal Act to make it necessary that the Minister should participate in the ad- ministration of such a scheme, and is it intended that public funds should be used, with the concurrence of the Treasury, in respect of this part of the Bill? The word "participation" may mean anything or it may mean nothing.

This Clause has been drafted in a very wide manner, and it seems to me on the face of it that there ought to be some control by Parliament of the degree of participation and the kind of participation. We should not hand over to the Commissioners absolute power, and I am not sure that the best way would not be to insist that somewhere in Clause 8 there should be provision made so that the Minister in exercising powers under this Clause should have to come to Parliament with Regulations. That would provide Parliament with an opportunity of seeing what she or her successors may do with this Clause, and it would give us from time to time some idea of the sum of public money which is involved. Before passing from this Clause we ought to have an explanation on the points that I have raised. I should also like to ask whether the right hon. Lady has any knowledge of further supplementary schemes being put into operation. The Clause is drawn in very wide terms and, as money is involved, we ought to have an assurance that the powers under this Clause are not going to be widely used without Parliament knowing what is being done.

This Clause provides for the payment of such fees as may be determined by the Minister. I want to know to whom these fees are likely to be paid. Surely those whom the Minister will employ to participate in these schemes will be civil servants, who already are in receipt of their ordinary salaries. Will the right hon. Lady explain and make it quite clear to whom these fees and charges are to be paid, and how widely this power is to be used. Can she give us any idea of the amount the Minister will ask the Treasury to advance. It is rather an unusual procedure for the Committee to give power to a Minister to incur any expenditure in the promotion of these schemes subject only to the Treasury; and not subject to Parliament. A perfectly unknown amount may be incurred without any authority or knowledge of Parliament, provided the Treasury is complacent, as they probably would be under the present Chancellor of the exchequer, although in some respects he has been putting a curb on the energies and extravagances of the present Government. In this respect I should like to know whether it is a trivial amount, and, above all, to whom it is likely that these fees or charges will be paid?

Hon. Members have not done me the honour to read the explanatory memorandum, which says: This Clause will give the Minister power to participate in the administration of a Supplementary scheme; for example, by permitting the ordinary unemployment books to be used for the payment of the contributions required under the Supplementary scheme and by permitting the machinery of the Employment Exchanges to be used for the payment of benefit, so far as desired by the promoters of the scheme, subject to the reimbursement of the Minister for the cost of such participation. I want to assure hon. Members that I am safeguarding the fund by providing that whatever extra cost may be incurred shall be returnable by the payment of fees from the scheme so participated in and not from the Treasury. The whole question has arisen out of the situation I inherited in relation to the building trade. They were trying to work out, very laudably, a scheme for the payment of wet time and they wanted to do so by making regular contributions. It would have been of immense advantage if it could have been done in conjunction with the national Unemployment Insurance machinery, but we could not undertake to consider participation unless we were assured that any additional cost incurred was recoverable. The existing Acts lay it down that no special scheme can come into operation except by special Order which must be laid before the House for 20 days before it comes into effect.

The right hon. Lady has read from the explanatory memorandum in which are the words "reimbursement of the Minister." I do not find any provision in the Bill regarding the reimbursement of the Minister, and I should like to know where it is made clear in the Bill. Is it absolutely certain that no cost will be incurred which will not be repaid by the supplementary scheme?

That will be laid down in the special Order.

I think this is the explanation which the hon. Member for Camborne (Mr. Leif Jones) desires. The money is provided for under the Clause itself. What has caused the trouble in the mind of the hon. Member is this. The money for this purpose is not in the first instance provided by the Treasury, it is defrayed out of any funds which may be available for the purposes of the scheme. In that case they are not provided by the Treasury but by the people who want supplementary schemes.

Yes.

I gather that the reason why the concurrence of the Treasury is asked for is that so far as there are any charges incurred by the Department for the services of any officials, the price which the scheme is to pay to the Department for the services of officials is to be assessed with the concurrence of the Treasury. There is no money found out of public funds. The money is found by the people who run the supplementary scheme.