Orders of the Day — Annual Holiday Bill.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 15 November 1929.

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Photo of Mr George Mathers Mr George Mathers , Edinburgh West

It is gratifying to find that there is a whole-hearted sup port for the principle of this Bill in every part of the House. On Second Reading we deal solely with the question of the principle of a Bill, and matters of detail are to some extent, though not entirely, beside the point. When the Mover of the Amendment uses words to the effect that the provisions of the Bill are unworkable I want to say to him that words like "unworkable" and "impossible" should not be in our vocabulary. Some of us to-morrow are to have an experience of something which only a few years ago was absolutely impossible. The airship R. 101 is a triumph of man over material factors. In this Bill we are trying to triumph over the human factor; over the human unwillingness to see all men placed on a reason ably equal footing. It should not be said that anything that we put into this Bill is, in the final analysis, unworkable. I have been a worker on the railway. Surely that is an industry in which the arrangement of holidays is difficult? But the railway companies have been able to overcome those difficulties by organisation, until only a tiny fraction of their workers are without holidays with pay. The industry has been put on to a fine basis so far as holidays with pay are concerned.

I see that the Mover of the Amendment is in his place. He referred to contracting out. By referring to Clause 5 he will clearly see that contracting out is not to be permitted. The hon. and gallant Member suggested that we would create great difficulties by allowing the Minister to frame the regulations for giving effect to the Bill. One is entitled to ask, if not the Minister who is entitled or likely to frame the regulations? The Seconder of the Amendment raised a number of points and to a great extent answered them himself. I need not, therefore refer to them at great length. But one point that he made was a very striking one. I understood him to say that one of the joys of having a holiday is the realisation that to get that holiday you have done a great deal of striving and struggling, and, when you are spending the money, that it has cost a great deal to get it together. Even with this Bill in full operation I do not think the hon. Member need have any fear about that particular joy being denied to the workers whom we have in mind. As a worker who has had holidays with pay during the greater part of the time of his service on the railway, I can say that what I conceive to be a greater joy than that referred to by the hon. Member, is the joy after having had a good holiday, of coming back to perfectly congenial work and finding my pay envelope waiting for me. That is one of the joys, a contrasting joy, that this Bill will bring into operation.

There is general agreement with regard to the principle of this Bill. It is agreed that it is better for health that men and women should have proper recreation. It is agreed, I would add, that men and women do want an opportunity of travelling a little. Travel has been made easy nowadays, and there should be opportunities of taking advantage of the facilities. Yet in this respect one might almost say that Members of the party opposite have something to lose by the extension of travel facilities, because in spite of the fact that they do contain within their party and do support those who have developed the internal combustion engine, it is arguable that their party has, to a very considerable extent, lost ground in this country because of the opportunity for the exchange of ideas that has developed by the use of the internal combustion engine. What I mean is that people get about, get to understand each other's point of view and get a bigger and wider outlook than they would have if tied to one place. Advantage has come to the party of progress and disadvantage to the party of reaction. So that in so far as hon. Members opposite are speaking from a reactionary point of view, in not giving these opportunities of travel, they may be quite wise in their day and generation.

There is a particular point that I wish to make. It has been said in respect of one great service, the co-operative movement, that until that movement has its own doorstep clean, we should not be seeking to impose conditions on other people. I want to bring that argument nearer home, and to say that this House should be very careful about imposing obligations upon people outside whilst its own doorstep, as it were, is not quite clean. This House should not impose upon outside employers, by legislation, obligations which through its executive it has not applied administratively. I am now referring to the fact that in the employment of the Office of Works—I have in mind the City of Edinburgh—there are many employés, full-time workers, who are not getting the weekly holiday with pay that was announced quite early in the life-time of the present Government. There are certain workers who have this advantage. The electricians and heating engineers and the labourers who work with them are directly employed by the Office of Works and come within the ambit of the new conditions; but there are joiners, masons, plumbers, painters and certain other workers who are employed full-time through contractors. It will be agreed that I am making a sound point if I say that certain of these workers have been doing nothing but work for the Office of Works for over 20 years.

The plea which I am making is that this House should see that the responsible Minister brings these men into the arrangement and makes it possible for them to enjoy a week's holiday with pay every year. To show how closely these men are associated with the department, I may say that the addresses, not of the contractors, but of the men themselves, are kept in the Office of Works. These men are sent for to deal with any emergency which arises, and, I understand, that orders are given direct to them, although they are contractors' men. In the past they have been placed in a position of equality with those who are directly employed by the State. When the War broke out State employés and contractors' men were placed in the same position as regards their emoluments while they were in the Army. I hope that the Second Reading of the Bill will be interpreted by the Government, and particularly by the Minister responsible for the Department to which I refer, as an indication of the desire of this House that the anomaly now existing, with regard to these workers in Edinburgh, should be speedily removed. The point was made by the Mover of the Amendment that the cost to the Government of carrying out this proposal would be £800,000, but I hope that it may be possible to confer this benefit on the men for whom I am particularly speaking, without incurring any additional cost at all. I cannot imagine that the contractors would be doing this work, and would be employing these men and responsible for these men, for less than would enable them to give each of these men a week's pay in each year.

Having ventilated this particular matter may I express the hope that at a later stage of the Bill's progress we may be in a position to deal with detailed points which arise. For instance, there' are certain protective provisions which I should like to see in the Bill. I would have it definitely provided that those who are at the present time in a better position than the position in which this Bill seeks to place all employés, should not have that better position impaired in the slightest degree if these provisions are carried into law. This is merely a case of trying to ensure that bad employers will not enjoy any advantage over good employers in respect of conditions of this kind. We do not want to place a premium on the activities of bad employers, and we are only demanding what ought to be the right of all workers. Returning to the point about the unworkability of the Measure, I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman, the Mover of the Amendment would hardly be satisfied if told that it was impossible for him to have a holiday. I think he would say, "I need a holiday," and would claim it as a right, and that, if he were so circumstanced, he would say to his employer, "You must reorganise your business in order that this inalienable right of mine may be given to me." I hope sincerely that the Bill will be given a Second Reading.