Clause 1. — (Extension of right to widows' pensions.)

Part of Orders of the Day — Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill. – in the House of Commons at on 12 November 1929.

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Photo of Sir Kingsley Wood Sir Kingsley Wood , Woolwich West

If that be so, I will now proceed to deal with what I may call the second part of these proposals. The other Amendment is in identical terms, but has a different implication. We are proposing in Sub-section (1, a, ii) to leave out the words "at some time," and to insert instead thereof the words "for a period of at least twelve months." If hon. Members will look at this proposal they will see that the difficulty which arises in connection with Sub section (1, a, i) is doubled when we come to Sub-section (1, a, ii), because you have no test as to whether a person was within three years before his death registered as a member of an approved society or was a deposit contributor. Here you have a much more difficult situation. Whoever undertakes this work will have to find whether his normal occupation was at some time within the said period employment in respect of which contributions under the principal Act would have been payable if that Act had been in force at that time. What the Lord Chief Justice would say about that provision I do not know. He would probably write another book. Certainly, the arguments which have been advanced for giving some definition in respect of Sub-section (1, a, i) are doubly reinforced when you come to the very vague and difficult question of interpreting Sub-section (1, a, ii). You have to go back to events of 40 years ago, and you have no test as to whether a man was a member of an approved society or whether he was a deposit contributor. All you have to do is to ascertain, according to the Bill, what his normal occupation was at some time within the said period. I do suggest to anyone who wants to do the right and fair thing in connection with these proposals that obviously the phrase "at some time" ought to have some definition. Hon. Gentlemen who said it was easy to define the matter must have been thinking of Sub-section (1, a, i). I do not think even they could define in very precise terms what "sometime" means in dealing with the question of normal occupation. We have at any rate demonstrated the danger of this particular phrase in this particular connection. My right hon. Friend the Member for Edgbaston (Mr. Chamberlain) has made a proposal that there should be inserted the words "for a period of at least 12 months." That, at any rate, does give some preciseness and is a definition that is worthy of consideration. We are not tied to it, and if the right hon. Gentleman thinks it is too long a time he can make his own suggestion. We were accused at the beginning of the Debate of endeavouring to restrict the proposals under this Bill. That is a grave misconception of the arguments advanced from this bench. We have endeavoured to make the Bill fairer and more just, and if this particular Amendment were carried it would at any rate permit a number of people who will be excluded from these proposals, and who will bitterly resent it, to have some opportunity of getting their case considered. If the matter is hot considered in this Committee these people will demand consideration at the hands of Members in all parts of the House, if not now, at any rate when they come to face their constituents.