Orders of the Day — Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions [Money].

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 1 November 1929.

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Photo of Sir Francis Fremantle Sir Francis Fremantle , St Albans

This is the first occasion under the present Government on which we have clearly and decisively before us the question as to how far we on this side are genuine in supporting or opposing a measure of social service. I am glad that some hon. Members on the other side who have spoken have allowed the possibility of our being honest and sincere. Often in this House I have tried to represent the medical profession and ancillary professions, and I think little exception will be taken to the view that no body of men in the country become so intimately acquainted with the material condition of people of every class, just as the clergy are acquainted with their spiritual condition. Medical men gain an intimate knowledge of their material condition, and therefore they have a keen interest in measures such as that which we are considering to-day. Throughout my profession there is an immense amount of support for any Measure which tries to mitigate the cases of hardship which exist in the poor homes of this country. But if we are to believe much that is spoken from the other side, there should be no end to this kind of legislation, no end to it at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] There are one or two hon. Members who say "Hear, hear," to that, but I maintain that every man of sense and responsibility must differ from them.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer has said again and again and has tried in vain to impress upon his own party that there must be a limit to this expenditure. The line must be drawn somewhere. Where must it be drawn? There we come to the vital point, and I want to emphasise that at the outset of this Parliament, because it will be coining up again and again. I want it to be clearly recognised by hon. Members opposite that we on this side are just as sincere as they are about social service, but we are not going to take social service as being a definite phrase, because it is not. We want to come down to what it is. We are keen on social betterment, and we object to social service which is not going to lead to social betterment. Mere proposals to spend millions on social service do not recommend them selves to those who really understand the responsibility we have for seeing that we get full money value out of these Measures. The danger on the other side is, that they say "As long as we can say from the soap box that we are spending millions out of money to which we do not contribute—" [Interuption.] That is the whole force of your point. You want to exempt not only needy workers but, as far as possible, all workers from taxes, and to put the cost of such Measures as this upon the shoulders of the very limited number of taxpayers in this country who are left to pay taxes. That is where we must strike the line. I am not going to rely upon my own statement, but would en force my argument by the opinions of men who are obviously impartial. The President of the friendly societies after the conference in October this year made a most remarkable speech referring to the general schemes of insurance and looking forward to this scheme before us to-day. I should like to read what he said: Since 1911, when the first great National Insurance Act was passed, a series of other Acts have followed, each penetrating further than its predecessor into the every day life of those who are brought within its scope. One has only to look round to see the beneficent results of much of this legislation among the sick, needy and the aged. There is in evidence however another development, less desirable in its reactions on the life of the nation. Useful though the schemes are there is a very real danger in their over development. Any scheme, however good, which removes the incentive to provide for the future and encourages all and sundry to look to the State to make provision for that future, forgetting all too often that they themselves are the State, must tend to weaken the national fibre which thrives and develops in an atmosphere where thrift is practised and where self-reliance and independence are fostered. That message to the friendly societies in conference is not to be met by ribald laughter. It is endorsed by the common sense of hundreds of thousands and by Members on our side of the House. We are responsible for distinguishing between schemes of social services that are likely to undermine the national fibre and schemes that make for social betterment and are necessary.