Orders of the Day — Local Government (Scotland) [Money].

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 5 December 1928.

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Photo of Mr William Watson Mr William Watson , Carlisle

I, probably, do not require to be afraid of that. The indiscriminate payment of Government money is not a good thing either for the country or for the recipients of the money. [An HON. MEMBER: "Find them work!"] That is what we propose to do. We propose doing something to assist industry to find them work, rather than that we should shift the burden of the able-bodied poor on to the State. There is one other point about this proposal which I want to make briefly, and that is that it will mean a duplication of many services. A man might be on the Employment Exchange one week because he is well, and the next week he may fall ill and be back again on to the local authority. There would be all the endless trouble which always ensues, and the inconvenience of having two different authorities dealing with the same case.

Let me come to the question of the de-rating proposals, and here the right hon. Gentleman used an expression that it was a mere extension of differential rating as expressed in the First Schedule of the Scottish Rating Act, 1926. I would like, first of all, to say that I remember very well the keenness to get even moderate additions to the percentage deductions allowed in that Schedule as being of substantial and material advantage to the industries concerned. They were fighting for additions of 5 per cent. in that Schedule, but we are now giving them 75 per cent. I happened to be counsel in those cases to which reference was made, I think, by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston), the cases where the steel and the iron industries claimed certain abatements or rebates, because of the permanent depression in their trade. It is clear, according to our law, that a temporary depression would not do, and they had to prove permanent depression. I remember well throughout those proceedings, both in the lower Court where they were tried before the Valuation Committee, and in the Supreme Court, the enormous contest that arose over the advantage of every 5 per cent. in a rebate. It is idle to suggest that substantial reductions to the liabilities of an industry will not on the average be of as great advantage to them. Although it may be in some cases not enough to fill the gap, yet in others it will be so.

Take the case of the coal trade which has more than once been referred to. I do not propose to deal with it in detail. The coal trade will benefit, under this Bill not only in the direct relief it gets from rating, but from the fact that many of its customers who are unable to get sufficient business themselves and who use coal, will be in a position to use coal either because of the indirect relief to themselves, or became of the indirect advantage obtained through relief on what they use for raw material or for transport. The whole thing is cumulative, and the coal trade will benefit in that way. With regard to what the right hon. Gentleman called "a mere extension of the Third Schedule of the Act of 1926," I understood him to suggest that it might be regulated, if I may use the phrase, in one or two ways, first of all, on the basis of prosperous and non- prosperous industries, the Inland Revenue being called in to assist in defining these two categories. I understand that that was one suggestion. In the Schedule as it stands there is no such distinction. If you call in the Inland Revenue, I still ask you, how are you going to differentiate between prosperous and unprosperous industries? It seems to me to be an impracticable thing to do. Is it going to be a 5 per cent, basis in every business, or what percentage? How are you going to settle what is a fair return if it is going to be in different classes of business, with different risks? It is an impossible proposition. It is hard enough in many respects to ask the Inland Revenue to settle what is profit, but to ask them to settle what is a prosperous business and what is not, seems to me, even if it were justifiable, to be impracticable. I understood my right hon. Friend to suggest, also, that this might be more concentrated in the way of districts. Am I right in that? I do not want to misunderstand the right hon. Gentleman, and, if I am not right in that assumption, I will not deal with it.