Orders of the Day — Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland.

– in the House of Commons on 20th November 1928.

Alert me about debates like this

Motion made, and Question proposed. That the Contract, dated the 16th day of November, 1928, between His Majesty's Government and David MacBrayne (1928), Limited, For the maintenance of transport services in the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland, and for the conveyance of mails in connection with the said services, be approved."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Photo of Lieut-Colonel Wilfrid Ashley Lieut-Colonel Wilfrid Ashley , New Forest and Christchurch

As hon. Members have received copies of the contract, it is not necessary that I should say much, but I should like to point out the main items, as I see them, in this con- tract. The first is that more money is to be devoted to these services than was intended in the contract of last May. Then, the subsidy was fixed at £36,000 a year. Under this contract, when the full sum of £250,000 capital has been put into the business, £50,000 a year will be paid as subsidy instead of £36,000 a year. At first, the whole of that £50,000 a year will not be paid. As long as the amount of capital employed is less than £250,000 10 per cent., of the difference between £250,000 and the actual capital that exists, is to be deducted from the £50,000.

Having said that and pointed out that undoubtedly more money is being found from the taxes in order to carry on this service, I should like to impress upon the House that the advantage to these areas is infinitely greater than under the old contract of last May. In the first place, the contract is for 10 years instead of five years, so that at any rate you have your certainty of a contract and of an improved service going on for 10 instead of five years; and it will go on until either party gives the other notice in writing of, I think six months to terminate the contract.

So far as the new vessels are concerned, it is infinitely better, because four new vessels will be built within a period of two years instead of three is five years as provided under the old contract. I am sure the House will see that that is a very considerable improvement from the point of view of the Western Islands. As far as the transportation itself is concerned, the House will recollect that the old contract simply said that there should be a reduction of 12½ per cent. on goods and produce brought from the islands to the mainland and that there was going to be no reduction on produce from the mainland to the islands, but under the present contract you will get an average reduction of 10 per cent., which is calculated at £17,000, on goods and passengers, whether they go to the islands from the mainland or from the islands to the mainland, and that is a very considerable improvement. Then you have the linking up of railway and steamship services which will obviously come about, as the London, Midland and Scottish Company will have a direct interest in maintaining proper connections between steamboat and train services. I think they would propose to have through rail and steam rates for both goods and passengers.

There are two other points that I want to make. The first is that if the Minister insists on new services, then, of course, the company or the railway companies insist, and quite rightly from their point of view, that they should be guaranteed against any loss that might occur; and the Government, in order to protect its interest, has the right to nominate one director on the board. I think that is all that I need say at the moment.

Photo of Mr Thomas Johnston Mr Thomas Johnston , Dundee

May I suggest that on the first Amendment which has been handed in we might have a general discussion on the whole contract and, if we so desire, have our division afterwards? The first Amendment is one dealing with the question of whether there shall be one or two State directors upon the Board. May I say that I agree with every word that has fallen from my hon. Friend the Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) as to the opportunity that was missed in not inaugurating a State sea service and—

Photo of Mr James Hope Mr James Hope , Sheffield Central

The hon. Member has made a suggestion which is technically contrary to the rules of the House. I understand he suggests that he should move the first Amendment on the Paper and that the whole contract should be then discussed, and then, if he so wishes, that the other Amendments should be moved and divisions taken upon them, but no further discussion. I see no objection to that, if it suits the convenience of the House, but I must put it to the House informally, and if no one objects we will proceed on that assumption.

Photo of Mr Thomas Johnston Mr Thomas Johnston , Dundee

I beg to move, in line 5, at the end, to add the words: subject to the modification that in paragraph 2 for the words 'a person' there shall be substituted the words two persons.' 9.0 p.m.

I was observing that, in my opinion, an opportunity has been missed of not inaugurating a State sea service, and indeed, on the occasion when the last MacBrayne contract was before the House, I had the honour of moving that the recom- mendations of the last Select Committee which sat on this subject should be given effect to in this House. However, that is not the view of the majority of the Members of this House. On the Select Committee, which considered the matter de novo, we were presided over by the hon. Member for Lichfield (Mr. Roy Wilson), and I should like, on behalf not only of hon. Members who agreed with me on that Committee, but, I am sure, of all the Members of the Committee, to express our appreciation of the enthusiasm, the earnestness, and the ability with which he fulfilled his duties. The Minister of Transport has very briefly contrasted the two contracts, the contract which was before this House and which was turned down by the unanimous feeling of the House, and the contract which we are now discussing. Under the last contract we had to pay £36,000 a year, but under this contract we have to pay £50,000 a year when, as the right hon. Gentleman said, the maximum amount of capital, £250,000, is put into the business, but only then.

That is £14,000 more per annum that the State will be paying towards this sea service, and what do we get for it? We are getting, not 12½ per cent, reduction in freights inward, which was excluding cattle, whiskey, and some other commodities; under this contract, we are getting an immediate reduction of 10 per cent. on all commodities, both inward and outward, which is a very considerable difference. But there is one exception to that which I am very sorry to see in the contract, and which was not in the minds of the Committee when we were discussing the contract upstairs. I invite the Secretary of State for Scotland to explain why this exception is in the contract. There is to be no 10 per cent. reduction upon traffic, as I understand it, from the Highlands and islands, inward or outward, to the Clyde ports and to the loch ports off the Firth of Clyde. I cannot see the slightest justification for that exception. Where is the route upon which we most want to develop traffic? Is it not between the great port of Glasgow and the port of Greenock to the outer islands? Yet by the limitation put in the contract here, there is to be no reduction of 10 per cent., inward or outward, between those Clyde ports and the islands.

Then the dividend to which this new corporation is limited is 6 per cent. Four new steamers are to be built at once, and they are to be built in the Clyde, as against two new steamers which were to be built under the previous contract, with possibly a third if there were a renewal of the contract at the end of five years; so that we get a considerable advantage in new shipping. Then we are to have inspection of the books and accounts—a very valuable addition. A fair wages clause has been inserted in the contract, and we are to get one Government director on the board of the new corporation. This is again where we fall foul of the Government. It was the express proposal of Sir Josiah Stamp before the Committee, and it was expressly agreed to by all the members of the Committee—and I hope that I am expressing the views of every member of the Committee when I say that when their Report left them, every member believed that the State was to have two representatives upon the new board. We find now that these two representatives have been cut down to one, and we should like to know the reason why. We have another very valuable proviso that half the profits over 6 per cent. are to be put in a contingent liability fund, and when the fund rises to £12,500, the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Government will step forward and demand a reduction in fares and rates. In other words, we have the nearest thing to a public utility corporation that we are likely to get out of the present Government. I have here for the purposes of the Debate the only official definition of which I know of a public utility corporation. It is in the Finance Act of 1920, Section 52, where a public utility company is defined as a company which carries on wholly in the United Kingdom any gas, water, electricity, tramway, hydraulic power, dock, canal, or railway undertaking, and which by, or by virtue of, any Act is precluded either from charging any higher price, or from distributing any higher rate of dividend than that authorised by, or by virtue of, the Act. Within the limits of that definition we are now to include for the first time a sea service, and let us hope, even with the limitations which the Government have imposed upon this new Corporation, that the Highlands of Scotland will receive a very material advantage, and that the possibility of economic developments are opened up before the Highlands.

I should refer to one or two points because they are dealt with in the Amendments. In the contract it is specified that only three-quarters of the crew shall be British. We see no reason why the whole 100 per cent. should not be British. We have been told over and over again that the excuse for putting such a proviso in shipping contracts is that ships go through the Red Sea and hot climates, and that it is necessary to have Lascars. You do not want any Lascars in the Western Highlands, and I cannot see why the right hon. Gentleman should have put in this proviso.

Photo of Mr James Couper Mr James Couper , Glasgow Maryhill

Does the hon. Gentleman object to natives of the South of Ireland being employed on the boats?

Photo of Mr Thomas Johnston Mr Thomas Johnston , Dundee

"Keep your ain fish guts for your ain sea maws." I am proposing that, when we have so many unemployed sailors, engineers and dock hands of our own, we might at least provide them with employment before we give it to other people.

Photo of Mr James Couper Mr James Couper , Glasgow Maryhill

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that many of the firemen who have served on these boats, and in the service which we are discussing, are of Irish origin?

Photo of Mr Thomas Johnston Mr Thomas Johnston , Dundee

If the point of the hon. Gentleman is that they should be British subjects, that will suit me, I suppose everybody from a British Colony is a British subject.

Photo of Mr Thomas Johnston Mr Thomas Johnston , Dundee

We need not quarrel about that, but under the contract you may employ Germans, Belgians, Portuguese, and anybody you choose, and I am only asking that the limiting proviso should be taken out of the contract. If the hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Couper) cares to vote against that, he will have an opportunity later on. I should like to ask in regard to Clause 11 whether the right hon. Gentleman has got any further with the London and North Eastern Railway Company that they will link in the fullest possible way with Mallaig and elsewhere. It is not in the terms of the contract, and we ought to know whether that company are in full agreement with this new proposal. In Clause 21 providing for a limitation on the reduction of 10 per cent., places on the Firth of Clyde and the lochs opening therefrom are excluded. Why is that part of the traffic excluded from the reduction of 10 per cent.? We know, for example, that Loch Goilhead was one of the very places which the Argyll County Council specially mentioned in their list of grievances with regard to the extraordinary freight charges that are now being levied by the MacBrayne Company, and if the traffic to Loch Goilhead is not to be subject to the 10 per cent. reduction of freights, there will be very considerable dissatisfaction at Loch Goilhead and in other parts of the Highlands. The Government will thus, by this senseless limitation cramp and stultify the beneficent provisions in other parts of the contract.

We hope that every step will be taken henceforth to develop trade and commerce between the Ports of Glasgow and Greenock and the Western Highlands. We hope that through this contract a modicum of prosperity will come to the Western Highlands, but if the introduction of these zones and limitations means that these reductions are not to apply here and not to apply there, we shall go right back to the bad old system of the MacBrayne company. On page 13 of the Schedule the right hon. Gentleman has set forth the type of new boat which it is proposed to lay down. On the Stornoway service it is proposed to provide a boat having a speed of not less than 12 knots in moderately had weather and with a length of 175 feet. Since this news got abroad there has been a perfect deluge of telegraphic and other protests from the outer Islands. It is held that the steamer should be capable of at least 14 knots, and that its length should be about 250 feet in order to allow of proper passenger accommodation being provided. Sir Josiah Stamp impressed every member of the Committee with his anxiety to do his utmost to develop this traffic, and now that we are opening up a new era, why should we provide only small-sized boats for this rough Atlantic journey? Why not start the new development on a more efficient scale?

I should like to hear the view of the right hon. Gentleman on the unanimous recommendation of the Committee that the piers should be taken over by the County Councils and maintained out of the Road Fund. Why not? As an hon. Member behind me has already pointed out, this is the Islanders' road, this is the road to the Isles, and the people there have as much right to a free highway for their traffic as have the inhabitants of the mainland, have as much right to decent transport facilities as have the people who travel between London and Edinburgh or Edinburgh and Manchester. This is the road to the Isles, and why should the piers, which are a part of the road, be left derelict? In some cases they have been allowed to fall into decay, and are in a highly dangerous condition. They ought to be taken over by the public authorities and maintained out of public funds, as the roads are maintained. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that all the members of the Committee—and the majority of them sit on his own side of the House—were unanimously of opinion that in the interests of the Highland and Islands these piers ought to be taken over by a public authority and maintained out of the Road Fund, and I trust the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us satisfactory assurances on that point.

I would like to say this one thing more. We know that about £100,000,000 a year is spent in Switzerland on tourist traffic by the Americans, Britishers and many other peoples who go there. We have a climate in the West Highlands which is drier than the climate in the Isle of Wight; the rainfall is smaller than in the Isle of Wight. We have at least as healthy a climate as there is in Switzerland and we have as beautiful scenery as there is in Switzerland, but this part of Scotland is unknown to the people of our own land. There have never been facilities for them to go to see it, nor was there accommodation for them there if they had gone. I hope to-night will mark the beginning of a new development, and that this new public utility company will do for the West Highlands what the Canadian Pacific Railway have done in Canada, and what has been done in Switzerland and in other European lands. I hope they will erect working-class hostels and open holiday resorts. I do not ask for huge costly buildings with gargoyles and useless ornamentation, but I want them to provide cheap holiday facilities for the people, so that these new steamer services, linked up with the railway services may gradually produce an era of prosperity such as the High-lands have not known for a century or more. If the Government take that view then these small, limiting paragraphs ought to be taken out of the contract, taken out by agreement with everybody concerned; and I hope the House will show, as it did when the MacBrayne contract was before us, that, irrespective of party prejudices or of past policy, it will unite to take a step towards promoting prosperity in the Highlands and Islands. Under this scheme you are doing more to provide employment for our people than all you have done by your transfer boards and all the rest of it. With these new steamers we can open up tourist traffic and can re-populate these beautiful Highlands and Islands—but only if we take out these limiting paragraphs, only if we provide facilities for cheap transport, only if we take over and maintain the piers; and it is because I believe all these things that I, with my friends, have tabled four Amendments, which I trust the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to accept.

Photo of Mr George Hardie Mr George Hardie , Glasgow Springburn

I beg to second the Amendment.

I will take this opportunity of developing the points I put on the Second Reading of the Bill. As I said then, you cannot claim that you are doing anything much for the Islanders unless you put them under the same conditions as the people on the mainland. I spent two weeks on the Island of Tiree, and while there had communication with the neighbouring Island of Coll. One day the boat which arrived at Tiree brought two baskets of tomatoes—small baskets—punnets we call them. The lady for whom they were brought had a little shop up at the top of the road. When I saw her go into the shop with the baskets I followed, because I felt I would like some tomatoes. I said "Might I have some of those tomatoes?" She said "Yon can have some tomatoes, but I want to tell you something. You cannot buy them here as you buy them elsewhere." I said "No, I did not expect that." She said, "Do you believe that," and put down an invoice for 6s., 3s. for each of those two baskets, with about 3 lb. of tomatoes in each basket. She had had to pay 6s. carriage on two small baskets of tomatoes. She said, "Apart from my work in going down to the pier and bringing up these tomatoes and the rent f pay for this little shop, if I were to add nothing more than the cost of the carriage the local people would think I was trying to swindle them and that is why I place my railway carriage bill up on that window." There were also some apples there, and I asked if we could have some. She said, "Yes," but the same thing happened there. There was the carriage bill. If you added the price per pound and took the carriage per pound, you got the retail price. That meant that the apples were 1s. 3d. per pound. I am pleading for the rights of the islander to have his facilities on the same basis as the mainland people, who are able to buy commodities at the same price in Glasgow. That is the only possible way in which you can build up in the Highlands and Islands. It is the only way in which you can keep your population in those areas—by providing them with the very same facilities as the people have on the mainland.

That is why I say I am sorry the Government have missed this tremendous opportunity of showing what is really meant by government in any country, namely, to see that your people get fair play and justice. Take the Island of Tiree. It is perhaps one of the most beautiful islands of the lot. It used to be famous for rearing the famous Clydesdale horses. The Secretary of State for Scotland is a judge of that kind of horse, though I do not think that he is a very good judge of contracts. Take the land in that island, which I have examined myself. It is plain to see that that island gives great opportunities for becoming a source of wealth production. I discused it for over a week with the farmers and the men who know their business. You can only get your information at the fountain head, and that is why I went up there. This island could overcome all the things which they say prevents its development if it had the same facilities as the mainland. For instance, the structure of that island, geologically, is such that one end forms a basin and there is the difficulty of drainage to the ordinary farmer. That gulf can be pierced at various points, and the accumulated water can be allowed to get to the sea. But there is a danger in that. An examination of the land shows that, if you cut this deep ditch and allow the water to get to the sea, you take away the very quality from that soil which makes it what it is. There is another way out, and that is a less expensive way than cutting through the strata to give a fall to the sea. It is by putting up windmills for controlling pumps. You do not require heavy capital expenditure with windmills because there is always plenty of wind to keep the mills going.

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

I understood that we were to have a fairly wide discussion, but I do not think it ought to include all these details about the merits of these islands to the extent to which the hon. Member is going.

Photo of Mr George Hardie Mr George Hardie , Glasgow Springburn

I understood that the whole purpose was to try to improve the conditions of the Highlands in regard to trade, and especially to secure the re-population of these areas which have become depopulated through what I have described. These are the central facts. I am saying that these things might have been done and that the people on the islands ought to have the same advantages as those on the mainland. Even if you get all that is provided in the contract, you are still going to leave an essential part of what is necessary to build them up. You want in these Highlands and Islands to establish confidence to begin and build up, and you are not going to do that by simply dealing with this little part of the matter. That is why I am making the plea that, if it is possible to extend or to stretch things in any way in order to get over these difficulties then your shipping and transport arrangements will pay from the very first day when you begin to see that the islands are producing all that they will be able to produce. It seems to me that you have been putting the cart before the horse. The Islanders there are people who understand what is being said, even in English. There is no doubt in their minds at all as to where they are, what they are doing, and what is preventing their development. Do not make any mistake about that, for they understand perfectly how it is that they have been kept back. I hope that the Secretary of State for Scotland will do his best to extract more from the Government and will see that things are made as reasonable as possible, and that he will allow a stretching of every point that may lead to the repopulation of the Highlands and Islands.

Photo of Mr Frederick Macquisten Mr Frederick Macquisten , Argyll

I want to say just a word about this contract. It is different from the previous contracts, because it provides a spirit of public service. My hon. Friends opposite have said that they wish the State had taken the whole thing on. I objected to the former contract because the State just went far enough to make mischief by giving a large subsidy without any restrictions or control. The result was that all the evils of a State service were combined with all those of private enterprise, without the advantages of either. This contract meets all those points. You have the zeal, activity, and keenness of private enterprise with the necessary supervision of the State, which is giving a large subsidy, and you are combining the good of both cases. That is why I have so much hope for this contract.

I agree with the eloquent speech of the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston) that it opens up a new future for the Highlands which ought to have been opened up long, long ago. I do not want to say anything unkind about the past because in the old days of the firm of MacBrayne they were largely actuated by a spirit of public service. They realised that you must to some extent satisfy your customers, and they had an honoured name in the Highlands. I think it was wise in this new concern to keep the old name, because of the considerable goodwill. I do not think the points raised by the hon. Member for Dundee are very serious breaches in the continuity of the agreement., nor do I believe that much harm would be done by having a couple of Government representatives. The Minister of Transport will be able to keep a careful supervision over the whole business. He has now got the right of getting hold of the books in order to see what profit is being made out of the contract, and I think that will pre- vent any exploitation. As to what the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Shinwe11) alleged about any profit being exploitation, I think he was quite wrong on that point because a reasonable profit cannot be described as exploitation; only profiteering can be so described, and a reasonable profit is only business enterprise. It think it is only right that there should be a provision by which the books can be examined when the Government provide a subsidy.

It is quite true that this agreement looks as if something much larger was being given, but I feel quite satisfied that in a very short time very little snore than what was provided under the old subsidy will be required. If you take the average for eight years under the old company I think you will find the amount now proposed is about the same. As the contract is now drawn, I think it will be possible very soon to bring the subsidy down to the old figure. For, instead of being the fag-end of a system of transport, we shall, for the first time, get that system properly linked up with the railway company and backed by them. I feel satisfied that under the new contract the first thing the railway company will do will be to feed the traffic and attract people, and I am sure it will be fully realised that it will be much better to draw people to this part of the country than to attract them to the South and across the Channel. If this is done, any chance of loss to the Treasury will disappear. I think it is a wonderful thing to have achieved to have gat the greatest railway company in the country to co-operate in this project. I am pleased that Sir Josiah Stamp has entered upon this enterprise and has come to the rescue of a part of the country that badly needed his support. I think it is a very big thing to have got Sir Josiah Stamp into this business. There is much to be said for the view taken by the Scottish Office in the past that the railways would not help, but that has changed now, and you have in addition to the railway a part of the steamboat line under Lord Kylsant, who has the biggest shipping interest in the world, and I am satisfied that these great organisations and these two eminent men will make a thoroughly good job of this service.

The hon. Member for Dundee urged a reduction of 10 per cent, in the rates to Lochgoilhead. There is one place which is served by a little steamer which needs a much better service and this steamer is not always able to get there in stormy weather. I hope some improvement will be made there and I trust it will be possible to have some reduction in the freights. With regard to Stornoway I have received letters urging the necessity of having more speedy boats. On this matter I rely on the railway company and the steamboat company without the Scottish Office coining in at all, and I feel sure those two organisations will see that it is to their interest to provide speedier boats. Stornoway is one of the finest fishing ports in the world, and I am sure the railway company and the steamboat companies will see that it is a wise thing to give this port some better facilities than it has had up to the present. That is the minimum which is in the contract, but there is nothing to hinder these big companies from giving something much more than the generous provision which is made in the contract.

The hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) referred to the outlying parts of the country and the urgent necessity of granting them better facilities for conveying their produce at something like the ordinary road rates. There are equalisation of rates tribunals in many parts of the Continent and America, and I think that is the principle on which this contract is founded. With regard to Lismore I understand that fertile island has no accommodation except a small motor boat. The steamboat company should be asked to make proper provision for the transport of goods to Lismore. I think the facilities offered by this contract will open up a new life in our transport system and it will be the means of a regeneration and a very great regeneration indeed.

Photo of Mr Alexander Livingstone Mr Alexander Livingstone , Ross and Cromarty

I thank my hon. Friend for what he has said on behalf of the Port of Stornoway because Stornoway is the chief fishing port in Great Britain. I should very much like to join in the chorus of approval with which this contract has been received, but I find that I am quite unable to do so. I cannot give unqualified approval to the contemplated contract, and I shall tell the House why. I must give the opinions of those people who know the matter best. The Town Council of Stornoway, a very enlightened body in a very enlightened town, ask for two things. They ask for speedy transport and a larger boat to cross the Minch, which is one of the most stormy channels round our coast. They also ask for something which is quite reasonable, and for which they have asked for many years, namely, a restoration of the early morning train connection to the South. They had that before the War, there is no reason why they should not have it now, and I hope it will be given to them. The Lewis District Committee of the Ross-shire, an equally enlightened body, have also asked for these two things. The Inverness-shire County Council, which is no mean body, recently appointed a transport committee, and the chairman of that transport committee is one of the most level-headed men in the Highlands. He is reputed to know more about the Highlands and Highland affairs than any other man, and I am certain that my friends on the other side will listen with respect to what he has to say.

The Chairman of that Committee is Lochiel, a man who is known personally and by repute to most of us here, and what does he ask? He says in effect that a 10 per cent. reduction in fares is of little or no use to them, and he speaks from actual knowledge. This man of great experience asks for a reduction, not of 10 per cent., but of 50 per cent., and nothing less will suffice. It is my duty to express my constituents' views on this matter. The people of Barra are thoroughly dissatisfied. The people of Benbecula are equally dissatisfied. The people of North and South Uist do not approve, and the people of Harris have expressed their strong disapproval. All these people are dissatisfied because the reductions in freights and passenger fares are insufficient. Will a reduction of 10 per cent, on a freight charge of 6s. for a small box of tomatoes save the Highlands? I would urge this upon the Secretary of State for Scotland. As he must know, transport is the life-blood of the Islands, and without improved transport the people cannot possibly survive. To the House generally I would say this: We have heard a great deal about the road to the Isles. You may take it from me that the road to the Isles is still the road to romance, and I hope that every Member of this House will some day take that road.

Photo of Sir Basil Peto Sir Basil Peto , Barnstaple

In taking part in this Debate, I shall not be able to contribute anything to the detailed analysis we have had of the potentialities of the Western Highlands and Islands, but I am interested in this contract from the point of view of the men who are going to carry on the new service. The Minister of Transport has immense powers in connection with it. He has to be consulted, and his agreement has to be obtained. I see that the contract provides for four new steamers, to be available within a period of two years. It also provides, as it should, for the usual Fair Wages Clause, and in Clause 7 it provides that each of the steamers shall be commanded by a skilful master. That is the point to which I desire to call the attention of the Minister.

Under the old MacBrayne service there was no superannuation at all for either masters or officers in these vessels. I was talking with Lord Kylsant only to-day, and he told me that 42 years ago in Scotland he saw one of the MacBrayne steamers, and he said that, while she seemed to be an extraordinarily seaworthy vessel, she looked very old. He was told that she was 40 years old, and he told me that she was still running. In other words, she is 82 years old. I am not, therefore, surprised when I am told, as I have been by the Imperial Merchant Service Guild, that in this old service the masters had no superannuation or pension, and that one of these masters, who was reputed to be over 80 years of age, had actually died at his post. Of course, it was very cheap and convenient to carry on the service without any pensions. I see that the proposal now is, and that in fact a contract has already been made, that Coast Lines, Limited, and their subsidiaries shall carry on temporarily this old service, which is now to be called MacBrayne, Limited. If it were limited to that, I should have no great anxiety with regard to pensions in the future, because no one has done more than Lord Kylsant to inaugurate pensions and widows' and orphans' schemes for officers of the services with which he is connected and which he controls.

According to the Bill, however, the London, Midland and Scottish Railway Company is to participate. There is no limit to the amount of share capital that they may subscribe, and, as far as I can see, they may own the whole organisation. One of my hon. Friends says "No," but I can see nothing in the Bill to limit the amount of capital that they may subscribe, and it is apparently to be a railway-owned, or partly railway owned steamship service. The experience of the merchant marine in connection with railway-owned steamships is not particularly happy or satisfactory, and I think it is regrettable that in this contract, in which nearly everything seems to be provided for, not a word is said about any pension or superannuation scheme for the officers. Naturally, they are anxious to know, and they have asked me to put the point to the Minister, in view of the great powers that he has, and to ask him to see that at least a pension scheme equal to that of the present Coast Line ships is established, under which a master may retire on a pension of £100 a year at the age of 65, when this new service is inaugurated and these new steamships are put into commission.

The officers and their association, although they have tried their best, have not always had the most happy relations with the companies in the case of these railway-owned steamer services. They met the railway companies three years ago and agreed to a 2½ per cent. reduction in their pay, but, in connection with the Fleetwood-Belfast and Heysham-Belfast services, when they made representations asking that an officer whose services are not required in port should not be required to pay 21s. a week for meals that he never consumed, they never had any reply to those representations beyond an acknowledgment of their protest. Therefore, they naturally regard with some alarm this contract and this Bill, which wilt allow a railway company to own, or at any rate part-own, these steamers, and they want to know that they are going to receive somewhat better consideration than they have received in connection with the Belfast-Fleetwood, which is now the Belfast-Heysham, ser- vice. I cannot expect that in this contract we can insert a Clause which will bind the new company to pay a reasonable pension and have a reasonable retiring age, but I ask the Minister if he will use the great powers he has and will see that these officers have reasonable pension rights under the new service and are not expected to go on commanding these ships as master, navigating these stormy seas and visiting these distant isles in the West, until they reach 80 without any pension on retirement at all.

Photo of Mr Emanuel Shinwell Mr Emanuel Shinwell , Linlithgowshire

I hope the Secretary of State for Scotland can see his way to accede to the hon. Baronet's request. The practice of superannuation for the masters and officers of vessels is well known. I hope at the same time the right hon. Gentleman will be able to put in a word for the remainder of the crew. There seems to be no reason why a superannuation scheme should be provided for the master and officers and the crew should be completely excluded.

Photo of Sir Basil Peto Sir Basil Peto , Barnstaple

Of course, the crew have their ordinary pension rights under the State scheme from which officers and masters would get nothing at all.

Photo of Mr Emanuel Shinwell Mr Emanuel Shinwell , Linlithgowshire

In point of fact, the hon. Baronet is not strictly accurate, because some of the junior officers on MacBrayne's vessels and other coasting vessels are insurable and come under the ordinary insurance scheme. In any event it can hardly be said that the pensions provided under the ordinary insurance scheme are adequate for the purpose. The hon. Baronet agrees.

10.0 p.m.

Photo of Mr Emanuel Shinwell Mr Emanuel Shinwell , Linlithgowshire

If he says a pension of 10s. a week is adequate I beg to offer a contrary opinion. But we are not here to discuss the merits of pension schemes, except to say there is no reason at all why the officers on the proposed new vessels should not be treated as the officers are treated in the major company, Coast Lines. We had a very interesting speech from the hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten), in the course of which he expressed the view that a measure of State control was desirable. I was delighted to hear him say that, because it would appear that he has travelled a long way in our direc- tion. There was a time when he would have been bitterly hostile to any such proposal. I take it that he will agree, having accepted that principle, that when a subsidy is provided for the mining industry, the Government responsible for the provision of the subsidy should exercise a measure of control. I hope on the next occasion when the Government suggests some form of financial relief he will indicate precisely the same view, and it might be mentioned when we are discussing these de-rating proposals. After all that is a form of subsidy, but, I cannot pursue that matter now. On the general principle I have a feeling of disappointment with the contract. It travels in our direction to some extent but it does not go far enough. It would have been much better to have a single scheme not hedged round by all sorts of conditions and stipulations, one which gave the Minister of Transport, the Secretary for Scotland and the Postmaster-General—because he is interested in a matter of this kind—complete control. As it is, they will act the part of policemen in connection with this contract. They will have to be constantly butting in so as to ensure that the contract is being properly carried out, that the mails are being adequately carried, that freights are not unduly high, that the services are adequate for the purpose and the like, and it would be much better in these circumstances, and in such circumstances as are bound to arise when this contract is in full operation, to exercise a full measure of control.

However, that cannot he dealt with now, because the House has already decided to accept the principle underlying the contract, but there are one or two points on which the right hon. Gentleman may be able to meet us. There is first of all the point raised by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston) in respect of the composition of the crew. He asked that the crew should he composed entirely of British subjects. I will direct the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that the members of the board of directors of the contractors must be British subjects. If it is desirable, as appears to he the case, that the contractors should be British subject, why should that principle not be applied to all the members of the crew? I cannot understand why there should be any differentiation. The hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Coupes) expressed the view that some difficulty might arise if the crew were confined to British nationality, but there is no difficulty whatever. Indeed MacBraynes have never employed other than British subjects. From my knowledge of the operations of MacBraynes, which extends over a period of 16 years, in close association with their shipping services, I dare say they have seldom employed any seamen other than Highlanders, but there is a possibility that men might be employed who are neither Highlanders, nor British subjects and something should be done to prevent that arising. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to alter this Clause so that British subjects only shall be employed on these vessels.

The only other point I wish to touch upon is in respect to the opening up of the Western Highlands. I speak now not so much of the cargo possibilities and the despatch of goods from Stornoway and the Outer isles to Glasgow and the mainland and from the mainland to the islands. It appears to me there is something much more important. If the tourist traffic is to be developed I would say to the right hon. Gentleman—and I assure him this is a point of real substance—that he will not attract tourist traffic unless he provides ample accommodation aboard these vessels for such a possibility.

We all know, at least those of us who have had some acquaintance with the MacBrayne vessels and with some of the smaller coastline vessels that they are hopelessly inadequate from the standpoint of tourist traffic. Tourists will not proceed on these vessels if there is any suitable alternative. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to include some clause or some provision or come to some understanding with the companies concerned so that the accommodation provided for tourists shall be of a most suitable character. Subject to these details, and to the expression once more of the general principle that it would be desirable to avoid a profit-making concern which is undoubtedly of an exploiting character, for as long as there is profit there is bound to be ex- ploitation, I agree that the contract is on the whole, the best possible contract that we could obtain under the circumstances.

Mr. ROY WILSON:

I should not have intervened to-night in this Debate had it not been for the extremely kind remarks which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston) made in his opening speech about me as the Chairman of the Select Committee. I should like to assure him that I accept those remarks not for myself but for the whole of the Committee. We were engaged upon an extremely interesting problem, and I should like to bear my testimony to the whole of the Committee irrespective of party and to the way they threw themselves into the work at the very limited time at our disposal. I would like to say to the hon. Member for Dundee that I would personally be very glad if he did not press these four Amendments to a division, because it is quite obvious that this contract which is now before the House has to stand or fail as it is. The acceptance of any one of these Amendments would be impossible. Having said that, I do not want the House to think that personally I am not in favour of these four Amendments. I think that they are all quite reason-able, but I am quite satisfied in my own mind that the time has gone past when it would be possible or reasonable to put these Amendments into a new contract.

I should like to reinforce the appeal made by the hon. Member for Dundee to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to do what he possibly can to get the local authorities in Scotland to bring these piers and landing places under the local authorities, and to get such assistance as is possible from the Ministry of Transport. All of us on the Committee regarded that as very important. It does not in any way interfere with the company. It is a matter of arrangement between the departments. I hope that my right hon. Friend may see his way to give us that assurance that that will be done at some future date, and so round off, if I may use the expression, a contract which in my opinion is certainly a considerable advance on the old MacBrayne contract and which I hope and indeed believe will result ultimately in better conditions, and greater prosperity to those very deserving people who live in these remote parts of Great Britain.

Photo of Mr John Gilmour Mr John Gilmour , Glasgow Pollok

Perhaps it will be well that I should intervene at this moment. I would like to say that I think that what my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Mr. Roy Wilson) said can be made clear by dealing with each of these Amendments as they are submitted. Those who were Members of the Committee will remember that in the first instance it was proposed that there should be three nominees of each of the companies and two of the Government. Since that time it has been stated by the companies that they did riot propose to nominate more than two directors each, making four instead of six, and for that reason the Government nominate only one. Let me say at once that there could, of course, under no circumstances be any question of a majority on the part of the Government. All that is really required for the safeguarding of the Government is that there should be a Government Director. I think that the smaller these bodies are kept the more efficient they are likely to be. There is nothing as I understand it to preclude an amicable arrangement at a future time if it should be felt that the board should be enlarged, and certainly if the companies agreed the Government would be within their rights in claiming another director. I hope that in view of that explanation and the added fact that the Government, in addition to having their representative, have access to the books and have the very fullest information as to everything that is being done, the House may feel assured that the interests of the taxpayers and public money are being adequately safeguarded.

I turn to the next point. That is that three-fourths of the crew should be British. I confess that I sympathise and feel that there is good ground for those of us who are interested in this to suppose that, at any rate, the great majority of these crews should be British. But I would remind the House that this problem of dealing with subsidies, and particularly with subsidies for mail contracts was the subject of an inquiry by a Select Committee of the House of Commons in 1902, and that, after going into the whole problem, that Select Committee recommended that in all contracts which entailed public money these words should be inserted. That is the reason why they are inserted now. But I have not the slightest doubt that the companies concerned will, as indeed in the past they have done, continue to employ only British subjects. With reference to the question of excluding places on the Firth of Clyde, this exclusion only concerns the waters within the Firth of Clyde and it does not include the question of the reduction of rates for goods brought from the outer isles into Glasgow or Greenock, or from Greenock to Glasgow to the outer isles. It was felt by the companies and by the Government that in the actual waters of the Clyde the conditions are entirely different and that with the circumstances of competition between the great varieties of companies who are serving the public within that area it was reasonable and fair, not only from the point of view of the arrangement which we are making with this company, but in fairness to the other companies within that area, that this should be left to the ordinary competition within the Clyde area.

I come now to the fourth Amendment, the demand that the boat should be "14 knots" instead of "12 knots," and "250 feet" instead of "175 feet." I can understand the anxiety of the people who are living in the outer Islands that they should have a boat of a good speed, seaworthy and able to meet all conditions of weather. It is the intention of the new company to build these four new ships, to provide ships of the most modern construction and with a sea speed which will be infinitely better than we have to-day, but I must point out to the House and to those who are asking for a boat of 14 knots speed instead of 12 knots that what they are asking for means an expenditure which would be extraordinarily high. In the circumstances, they must realise that they are being given a good service and improved boats, and I would ask that until they see these boats, they should withhold their criticism.

Photo of Mr Alexander Livingstone Mr Alexander Livingstone , Ross and Cromarty

Will there be proper working connections between the railways and the steam boats? Will the early morning train connection with the Stornoway mail boat be restored?

Photo of Mr John Gilmour Mr John Gilmour , Glasgow Pollok

I do not doubt that the new company, working as it will be closely in touch with the railways, will do everything in its power to improve the service connections. Not only the London, Midland and Scottish Railway, but the London and North Eastern Railway are really working together in this matter. The London and North Eastern Railway Company have stated that they give an assurance that they will cooperate with the new company and will maintain their services in connection with the steamers. That is of material importance, because a great part of the criticism in the past has been that that intimate connection and interworking has not been carried out. For the first time we have an assurance on the part of the new company and on the part of the London, Midland and Scottish Railway and the London and North Eastern Railway that they will work for a common purpose towards one end.

Not only are these reductions in rates being given both inward and outward, but provision is being made that if the service improves and warrants the things that are being said about it in this House and outside, and justifies the efforts of the new company, every two years there will be the possibility of a revision and a further reduction, if the service shows good results. Further, the Government are pledged under this contract to assist to improve and delevop the future services. I would ask the House to give a little time for these developments and that they must not either themselves be or encourage their constituents to be too premature in making fresh demands, until we see the developments of this genuine effort at co-operation and improvement. With regard to the question of staff, I do not doubt that so far as the Coast Lines are concerned, who are the main people dealing with this problem, they will do everything that they can to deal fairly and properly with it, but it would not be suitable to insert in the contract at this time any conditions such as have been suggested to-night.

Photo of Sir Basil Peto Sir Basil Peto , Barnstaple

If the Government have a representative on the Board, could not the Government representative use what influence he has, although he is not in a majority, in favour of pension terms for officers?

Photo of Mr John Gilmour Mr John Gilmour , Glasgow Pollok

I have no doubt that if and when an opportunity occurs these matters will be fairly considered. I want to say one word on the subject of the piers. Everyone who knows the conditions in the Western Isles is aware of the difficulties of this question, but this Contract is obviously not an occasion to deal with that matter. I agree that this is a problem which is still before us and for which we must find a solution. Frankly, I think the proper method would be for these piers to be taken over by the local authorities, but that again is a matter upon which a diversity of opinion exists. In some cases they have been taken over, and if eventually that is done, if circumstances permit us to take action in this direction, it may well be that they will come under the administration of the Minister of Transport, but I doubt if there is any possibility at the present time of any contribution being made to piers by the Minister of Transport. He makes a contribution for roads; he has the power now to give grants for roads giving access

to piers, if they are in the hands of the local authority.

Photo of Mr David Kirkwood Mr David Kirkwood , Dumbarton District of Burghs

What about the size of the ships?

Photo of Mr John Gilmour Mr John Gilmour , Glasgow Pollok

The new ships will be a vast improvement on those that have gone before both in design and accommodation for all classes of passengers. I trust the House will be content with the difficult negotiations which have now gone on for a number of months and will ratify this contract.

Amendment negatived.

Photo of Mr Emanuel Shinwell Mr Emanuel Shinwell , Linlithgowshire

I beg to move, in line 5, at the end, to add the words: subject to the modification that in paragraph 7 the words 'at least three-fourths of' shall be omitted.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 110; Noes, 241.

Division No. 8.]AYES.[10.24 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Sexton, James
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHollins, A.Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Baker, WalterJohn, William (Rhondda, West)Shinwell, E.
Barnes, A.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Sitch, Charles H.
Batey, JosephJones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Bellamy, A.Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Smillie, Robert
Benn, WedgwoodKelly, W. T.Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Bondfield, MargaretKennedy, T.Smith, Rennle (Penistone)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.Snell, Harry
Broad, F. A.Kirkwood, D.Stamford, T. W.
Bromfield, WilliamLansbury, GeorgeStephen, Campbell
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)Lawson, John JamesStewart J. (St. Rollox)
Buchanan, G.Lee, F.Sullivan, Joseph
Cape, ThomasLongbottom, A. W.Sutton, J. E.
Charleton, H. C.Lowth, T.Taylor, R. A.
Compton, JosephLunn, WilliamThurtle, Ernest
Dalton, HughMacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)Mackinder, W.Townend, A. E.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Day, HarryMacNeill-Weir, L.Viant, S. P.
Dennison, R.March, S.Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Duncan, C.Maxton, JamesWatson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Dunnico, H.Mitchell. E. Rosslyn (Paisley)Wellock, Wilfred
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)West wood, J.
Gibbins, JosephMosley, Sir OswaldWheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Gillett, George M.Murnin, H.Whiteley, W.
Greenall, T.Naylor, T. E.Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)Oliver, George HaroldWilliams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Grundy, T. W.Potts, John S.Windsor, Walter
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Wright, W.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Riley, BenYoung, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hardle, George D.Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)
Heyday, ArthurRobinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hayes, John HenrySaklatvala, ShapurjiMr. T. Henderson and Mr. Charles
Hirst, G. H.Scurr, JohnEdwards.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelGanzoni, Sir JohnOakley, T.
Albery, Irving JamesGates, PercyO'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnOman, Sir Charles William C.
Allen, Sir J. SandemanGlyn, Major R. G. C.Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Apsley, LordGoff, Sir ParkOwen, Major G.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.Gower, Sir RobertPennefather, Sir John
Astbury, Lieut-Commander F. W.Grant, Sir J. A.Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J (Kent, Dover)Greaves-Lord, Sir WalterPerring, Sir William George
Atholl, Duchess ofGrenfell, Edward C. (City of London)Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyGriffith, F. KingsleyPeto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Grotrian, H. BrentPilcher, G.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.(Bristol, N.)Power, Sir John Cecil
Barnett, Major Sir RichardGunston, Captain D. W.Preston, William
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.Hacking, Douglas H.Price, Major C. W. M.
Bethel, A.Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)Raine, Sir Walter
Betterton, Henry B.Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)Rawson, Sir Cooper
Bevan, S. J.Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Rees, Sir Beddoe
Birchall, Major J. DearmanHammersley, S. S.Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)
Blundell, F. N.Harland, A.Remer, J. R.
Bourne, Captain Robert CroftHarrison, G. J. C.Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.Hartington, Marquess ofRichardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)Robinson, Sir T. (Lanc., Stretford)
Brass, Captain W.Haslam, Henry C.Ropner, Major L.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveHeadlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Briggs, J. HaroldHenderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Rye, F. G.
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeHeneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.Salmon, Major I.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Henn, Sir Sydney H.Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Sandeman, N. Stewart
Brown, Ernest (Leith)Hobler, Sir Gerald FitzroySanderson, Sir Frank
Buchan, JohnHolbrook, Sir Arthur RichardSavery, S. S.
Burman, J. B.Holt, Capt. H. P.Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie
Carver, Major W. H.Hopkins, J. W. W.Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Cassels, J. D.Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Chapman, Sir S.Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.Shepperson, E. W.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Christie, J. A.Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)Skelton, A. N.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir AylmerSmith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Clayton, G. C.Hurd, Percy A.Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Smithers, Waldron
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir GeorgeInskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Colman, N. C. D.Iveagh, Countess ofSouthby, Commander A. R. J.
Conway, Sir W. MartinJones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Cope, Major Sir WilliamJones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Couper, J. B.Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Courtauld, Major J. S.Kindersley, Major G. M.Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.Kinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementSteel, Major Samuel Strang
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Lamb, J. Q.Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)Livingstone, A. M.Streatfelld, Captain s. R.
Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)Loder, J. de V.Tasker, R. [...]
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)Lougher, LewisTempleton, W. P.
Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh VereThom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanThomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Cunliffe, Sir HerbertLumley, L. R.Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Curzon, Captain viscountMacAndrew, Major Charles GlenTomlinson, R. p.
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.Macintyre, IanVaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)McLean, Major A.Waddington, R.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)Macmillan, Captain H.Wallace, Captain D. E.
Dawson, Sir PhilipMacnaghten, Hon. Sir MalcolmWarrender, Sir Victor
Drewe, C.Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Eden, Captain AnthonyMacquisten, F. A.Watts, Sir Thomas
Edmondson, Major A. J.MacRobert, Alexander M.Wells, S. R.
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Elliot, Major Walter E.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Ellis, R. G.Margesson, Captain D.Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
England, Colonel A.Marriott, Sir J. A. R.Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Westan-s.-M.)Mason, Colonel Glyn K.Wilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks, Richm'd)
Everard, W. LindsayMeller, R. J.Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Fairfax, Captain J. G.Merriman, Sir F. BoydWinby, Colonel L. P.
Falle, Sir Bertram G.Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Falls, Sir Charles F.Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Fenby, T. D.Monsell, Eyres Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Withers, John James
Fermoy, LordMoore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)Wolmer, Viscount
Fielden, E. B.Moore, Sir Newton J.Womersley, W J
Ford, Sir P. J.Moreing, Captain A. H.Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Forestler-Walker, Sir L.Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Forrest, W.Murchison, Sir KennethWright, Brig.-General W. D.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph
Frece, Sir Walter deNewman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Gadle, Lieut.-Col. AnthonyNuttall, EllisMr. F. C. Thomson and Mr. Penny.
Galbraith, J. F. W.

Photo of Mr Thomas Kennedy Mr Thomas Kennedy , Kirkcaldy District of Burghs

I beg to move, in line 5, at the end, to add the words: subject to the modification that in paragraph 21, the words '(but excluding places on the Firth of Clyde and the lochs opening therefrom)' shall be omitted.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 111; Noes, 250.

Division No. 9.]AYES.[10.33 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Hirst, G. H.Saklatvala, Shapurji
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHirst, W. (Bradford, South)Scurr, John
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)Hollins, A.Sexton, James
Baker, WalterHudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Barnes, A.Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Batey, JosephJohn, William (Rhondda, West)Shinwell, E.
Bellamy, A.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Sitch, Charles H.
Benn, WedgwoodJones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Bondfield, MargaretJones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Smllile, Robert
Bowerman, nt. Hon. Charles W.Kelly, W. T.Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Broad, F. A.Kennedy, T.Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Bromfield, WilliamKonworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.Snell, Harry
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)Kirkwood, D.Stamford, T. W.
Buchanan, G.Lansbury, GeorgeStephen, Campbell
Cape, ThomasLawson, John JamesStewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Charleton, H. C.Lee, F.Sullivan, Joseph
Compton, JosephLongbottom, A. W.Sutton, J. E.
Dalton, HughLowth, T.Taylor, R. A.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)Lunn, WilliamThurtle, Ernest
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)Tinker, John Joseph
Day, HarryMackinder, W.Townend, A. E.
Dennison, R.Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Duncan, C.MacNeill-Weir, L.Viant, S. P.
Dunnico, H.March, S.Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)Maxton, JamesWatson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)Wellock, Wilfred
Gibbins, JosephMorrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N-)Westwood, J.
Gillett, George M.Mosley, Sir OswaldWheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Greenall, T.Murnin, H.Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)Naylor, T. E.Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Oliver, George HaroldWilliams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Grundy, T. W.Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Windsor, Walter
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)Potts, John S.Wright, W.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Richardson, R. (Houghton-la-Spring)Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hardie, George D.Riley, Ben
Hayday, ArtnurRoberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hayes, John HenryRobinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Whiteley.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelBuchan, JohnEden, Captain Anthony
Albery, Irving JamesBurman, J. B.Edmondson, Major A. J.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)Carver, Major W. H.Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)
Allen, Sir J. SandemanCassels, J. D.Elliot, Major Walter E.
Apsley, LordChapman, Sir S.Ellis, R. G.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.Charteris, Brigadier-General J.England, Colonel A.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.Christie, J. A.Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)Churchman, Sir Arthur C.Everard, W. Lindsay
Atholl, Duchess ofClayton, G. C.Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyCochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir GeorgeFalls, Sir Charles F.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Colman, N. C. D.Fenby, T. D.
Barnett, Major Sir RichardConway, Sir W. MartinFermoy, Lord
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.Cope, Major Sir WilliamFielden, E. B.
Belfairs, Commander CarlyonCouper, J. B.Ford, Sir P. J.
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-Courtauld, Major J. S.Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Bethel, A.Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.Forrest, W.
Betterton, Henry B.Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Bevan, S. J.Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)Frece, Sir Walter de
Birchall, Major J. DearmanCraig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Blundell, F. N.Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Bourne, Captain Robert CroftCrookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)Galbraith, J. F. W.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Galnsbro)Ganzonl, Sir John.
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)Gates, Percy
Brass, Captain W.Cunliffe, Sir HerbertGault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveCurzon, Captain ViscountGilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Briggs, J. HaroldDavidson, Major-General Sir J. H.Glyn, Major R. G. C
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeDavies, Major-Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)Goff, Sir Park
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Davies, Dr. VernonGower, Sir Robert
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)Grant, Sir J. A.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Dawson, Sir PhilipGreaves-Lord, Sir Walter
Brown, Ernest (Leith)Drewe, C.Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Griffith, F. KingsleyMacpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Grotrian, H. BrentMacquisten, F. A.Sanderson, Sir Frank
Gunston, Captain D. W.MacRobert, Alexander M.Savery, S. S.
Hacking, Douglas H.Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Leslie
Hall, Lieut. Col. sir F. (Dulwich)Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)Margesson, Capt. D.Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Marriott, Sir J. A. R.Shepperson, E. W.
Hammersley, S. S.Mason, Colonel Glyn K.Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst.)
Harland, A.Meller, R. J.Skelton, A. N.
Harrison, G. J. C.Merriman, Sir F. BoydSmith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Hartington, Marquess ofMitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)Smithers, Waldron
Haslam, Henry C.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Moore, Sir Newton J.Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.Moreing, Captain A. H.Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Henn, Sir Sydney H.Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.Murchison, Sir KennethStanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)Nail, Colonel Sir JosephSteel, Major Samuel Strang
Hills, Major John WallerNeville, Sir Reginald J.Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Hohler, Sir Gerald FitzroyNewman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Streatfelld, Captain S. R.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardNewton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Holt, Capt. H. P.Nuttall, EllisTasker, R. Inigo.
Hopkins, J. W. W.Oakley, T.Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.Oman, Sir Charles William c.Titchfield, Major the Marquess or
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. WilliamTomlinson, R. P.
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)Owen, Major G.Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir AylmerPennefather, Sir JohnWaddington, R.
Hurd, Percy A.Perkins, Colonel E. K.Wallace, Captain D. E.
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Perring, Sir William GeorgeWarrender, Sir Victor
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Iveagh, Countess ofPeto, G. (Somerset, Frome)Watts, Sir Thomas
Jones, Sir G. W.H. (Stoke New'gton)Pilcher, G.Wells, S. R.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Power, Sir John CecilWilliams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)Preston, WilliamWilliams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Kindersley, Major G. M.Price, Major C. W. M.Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
King, Commodore Henry DouglasRaine, Sir WalterWilliams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Kinloch Cooke, Sir ClementRawson, Sir CooperWilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Lamb, J. O.Rees, sir BeddosWilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks, Richm'd)
Livingstone, A. M.Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)Remer, J. R.Winby, Colonel L. P.
Loder, J. de V.Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Lougher, LewisRichardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh VereRobinson, Sir T. (Lane., Stretford)Withers, John James
Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HermanRopner, Major L.Wolmer, Viscount
Lumley, L. R.Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.Womereley, W. J.
MacAndrew Major Charles GlenRye, F. G.Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Macintyre, I.Salmon, Major I.Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
McLean, Major ASamuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)Wright, Brig.-General W. D.
Macmillan, Captain H.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir MalcolmSandeman, N. StewartTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. F. C, Thomson and Mr. Penny.

Photo of Dr Thomas Shiels Dr Thomas Shiels , Edinburgh East

I beg to move, in line 5, at the end, to add the words: subject to the modification that in the Second Schedule '14 knots' shall be substituted for '12 knots' and '250 feet' for '175 feet'.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 115; Noes, 249.

Division No. 10.]AYES.[10.44 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Compton, JosephGrundy, T. W.
Ammon, Charles GeorgeCowan, O. M. (Scottish Universities)Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)Dalton, HughHall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Baker, WalterDavies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)Hardle, George D.
Barnes, A.Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Hayday, Arthur
Batey, JosephDay, HarryHirst, G. H.
Bellamy, A.Dennison, R.Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Benn, WedgwoodDuncan, C.Hollins, A.
Bondfield, MargaretDunnico, H.Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Broad, F. A.Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.John, William (Rhondda, West)
Bromfield, WilliamGibbins, JosephJohnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Bromley, J.Gillett, George M.Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)Greenall, T.Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Buchanan, G.Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)Kelly, W. T.
Cape, ThomasGrenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Kennedy, T.
Charleton, H. C.Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Kirkwood, D.Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Sutton, J. E.
Lansbury, GeorgePotts, John STaylor, R. A.
Lawson, John JamesRichardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Thurtle, Ernest
Lee, F.Riley, BenTinker, John Joseph
Livingstone, A. M.Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)Townend, A. E.
Longbottom, A. W.Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Lowth, T.Sakiatvala, ShapurjiViant, S. P.
Lunn, WilliamScurr, JohnWalsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Sexton, JamesWatson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Mackinder, W.Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)Wellock, Wilfred
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)Shiels, Dr. DrummondWestwood, J.
MacNeill-Weir, L.Shinwell, E.Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.Sitch, Charles H.Whiteley, W.
March, S.Slesser, Sir Henry H.Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Maxton, JamesSmillie, RobertWilliams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)Smith, Rennle (Penistone)Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Mosley, Sir OswaldSnell, HarryWindsor, Walter
Murnin, H.Stamford, T. W.Wright, W.
Naylor, T. E.Stephen, CampbellYoung, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Oliver, George HaroldStewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Sullivan, J.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Hayes.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelDavies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)Holt, Capt. H. P.
Albery, Irving JamesDavies, Dr. VernonHopkins, J. W W
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Allen, Sir J. SandemanDawson, Sir PhilipHoward-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Apsley, LordDrewe, C.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.Eden, Captain AnthonyHudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.Edmondson, Major A. J.Hume, Sir G. H.
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Atholl, Duchess ofElliot, Major Walter E.Hurd, Percy A.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyEllis, R. G.Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)England, Colonel A.Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)Iveagh, Countess of
Barnett, Major Sir RichardEverard, W. LindsayJones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.Fairfax, Captain J. G.Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Bellairs, Commander CarlyonFalle, Sir Bertram G.Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-Falls, Sir Charles F.Kindersley, Major Guy M.
Bethel, A.Fenby, T. D.King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Betterton, Henry B.Fermoy, LordKinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Bevan, S. J.Fielden, E. B.Lamb, J. Q.
Birchall, Major J. DearmanFord, Sir P. J.Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Blundell, F. N.Forestler-Walker, Sir L.Loder, J. de V.
Bourne, Captain Robert CroftForrest, W.Lougher, Lewis
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.Foxcroft, Captain C. T.Lucas-Tooth, sir Hugh Vera
Brass, Captain W.Frece, Sir Walter deLuce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveFremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Lumley, L. R.
Briggs, J. HaroldGadle, Lieut.-Col. AnthonyMacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeGalbraith, J. F. W.MacIntyre, Ian
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Ganzoni, Sir JohnMcLean, Major A.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.Gates, PercyMacmillan, Captain H.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew HamiltonMacnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Brown, Ernest (Leith)Gllmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMacquisten, F. A.
Buchan, JohnGlyn, Major R. G. C.MacRobert, Alexander M.
Burman, J. B.Goff, Sir ParkMaitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)
Carver, Major W. H.Gower, Sir RobertMaitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Cassels, J. D.Grant, Sir J. A.Margesson, Captain D.
Chapman, Sir S.Greaves-Lord, Sir WalterMarriott, Sir J. A. R.
Charterls, Brigadier-General J.Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)Mason, Colonel Glyn K.
Christie, J. A.Griffith, F. KingsleyMeller, R. J.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.Grotrian, H. BrentMerriman, Sir F. Boyd
Clarry, Reginald GeorgeHacking, Douglas H.Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Clayton, G. C.Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir GeorgeHamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Colman, N. C. D.Hammersley, S. S.Moore, Sir Newton J.
Conway, Sir W MartinHarland, A.Moreing, Captain A. H.
Cope, Major Sir WilliamHarrison, G. J. C.Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Couper, J. B.Hartington, Marquess ofMurchison, Sir Kenneth
Courtauld, Major J. S.Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.Haslam, Henry C.Neville, Sir Reginald J.
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Craig, Sir Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)Heneage, Lieut.-Col- Arthur P.Nuttall, Ellis
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)Henn, Sir Sydney H.Oakley, T.
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Cunliffe, Sir HerbertHills, Major John WallerOrmsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Curzon, Captain ViscountHohler, Sir Gerald FitzroyOwen, Major G.
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardPennefather, Sir John
Perkins, Colonel E. K.Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir LeslieTomlinson, R. P.
Perring, Sir William GeorgeShaw, R. G (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)Waddington, R.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)Sheffield, Sir BerkeleyWallace, Captain D. E.
Pilcher, G.Shepperson, E. W.Warrender, Sir Victor
Power, Sir John CecilSinclair, Cot. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Preston, WilliamSkelton, A. N.Watts, Sir Thomas
Price, Major C. W. M.Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, c.)Wells, S. R.
Raine, Sir WalterSmith-Carington, Neville W.Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Rawson, Sir CooperSmithers, WaldronWilliams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Rees, Sir BeddoeSomerville, A. A. (Windsor)Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)Southby, Commander A. R. J.Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Remer, J. R.spender-clay, colonel H.Wilson, Sir Charles H. (Leeds, Central)
Rhys, Hon. C. A. O.Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.Wilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks, Richm'd)
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)Stanley, Lord (Fylde)Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)Winby, Colonel L. P.
Ropner, Major L.Steel, Major Samuel StrangWindsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Ruggles-Brise, Lieut-Colonel E. A.Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Rye, F. G.Streattelld, Captain S. R.Withers, John James
Salmon, Major I.Sugden, Sir WilfridWolmer, Viscount
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)Tasker, R. Inigo.Womersley, W. J.
Samuel, Samuel (W'deworth, Putney)Templeton, W. P.Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Sandeman, N. StewartThorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Sanders, Sir Robert A.Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)Wright, Brig.-General W. D.
Sanderson, Sir FrankThomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Savery, S. S.Titchfield, Major the Marquess ofTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Captain Bowyer and Mr. Penny.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved, That the Contract, dated the 16th day of November, 1928, between His Majesty's Government and David MacBrayne (1928), Limited, for the maintenance of transport services in the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland, and for the conveyance of mails in connection with the said services, be approved.