Air Estimates and Supplementary Estimate, 1925–26.

Part of Orders of the Day — Supply. – in the House of Commons at on 4 August 1925.

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Photo of Mr John Wheatley Mr John Wheatley , Glasgow Shettleston

The right hon. Gentleman, almost in his opening sentence, referred to the friendly spirit that had so far characterised the Debate. I would frankly say that on this occasion, as on all others, he has made it very easy for his opponents to treat him with courtesy. There is one point, at any rate, on which, if it were proper to do so, I could congratulate the right hon. Gentleman, and that is the scope that exists in Scotland for exercising the most enthusiastic desire for social reform that can animate any man. I can say that, however much we may regret the existence of that scope. The outstanding social evil that concerns us, as he has again made quite clear, is, of course, the housing conditions in Scotland.

As is by this time well known to every Member of the House, the conditions of housing in Scotland are much inferior to the conditions in England, however far the English conditions may fall short of perfection. It is also well known that the death rate in Scotland, particularly among the young, is usually higher than it is in England. Most people will admit that there is very close connection between these two things. I had a letter the other day from a gentleman, who has given almost a life service to public health in Scotland, and who tells me that he has devoted a large part of his time in recent months to a study of why the infant mortality is usually higher than in England, and he has come to the conclusion that it is undoubtedly due to the inferior standard of Scottish housing accommodation. I do not intend to-night to attempt to describe these housing conditions. They have been described, especially in recent years, on many occasions more or less eloquently, and probably never more eloquently or effectively than they have been in the course of the present discussion by my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr). I would like to impress this upon the representatives of the Government that, if it is admitted that you have a higher death rate in Scotland because of inferior housing conditions, you are putting a big tax on the patience of the Scottish people if you allow the cause of this higher mortality to exist for a year longer than is absolutely necessary.

The right hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, admitted that the rate of progress in the provision of the housing required, was unfortunately at present slow. I find from his Report that during 1924 only 4,384 houses were erected with State assistance in Scotland. The reasons he gives for that meagre output is that the local authorities in Scotland, with, I suppose, characteristic caution, were waiting for the Labour legislation which they expected would give them more generous assistance than was provided for them under the Act of 1923. The hope is expressed that, as 9,808 houses were under construction at the 31st December, we may reasonably expect a much larger output of houses during 1925. It is unnecessary for me to remind the right hon. Gentleman that even the larger number is quite insufficient to deal with the problem with which we are confronted in Scotland. I doubt very much whether an annual output of 9,000 houses would meet the ordinary depreciation of property that is going on, to say nothing about making good the admittedly serious shortage. We are asked, of course, and quite rightly asked, to consider the cause of this shortage in the output of houses, and the right hon. Gentleman, in his speech to-day, made an eloquent appeal to those of us on this side to use whatever influence we may have in removing what he regards as the sole cause of the shortage.

I find, however, when I read his Report, that he mentions as one of the chief difficulties the present high cost of building in Scotland. In support of that he tells us that during the 12 months he had reason to turn down applications from local authorities for 1,046 houses, because he could not approve of the prices that were being asked for these houses. I sympathise with him in the attitude that he adopted there, and if I had been in his place, I would have adopted the very same course. I cannot follow him when he attempts, starting from that point, to put the whole blame for present conditions on the shoulders of the building trade operatives of the country. We are told in the Report that the Inter-Departmental Committee which was appointed to investigate production costs and profits found it quite impossible to carry out their investigation. The right hon. Gentleman does not tell us why the Government have not sought to obtain from this House powers that would enable the Committee to carry out duties placed upon them, not by the Labour Government, but by the last Government, and duties that are vital to the solution of this problem. He tells us that they have no power to investigate production costs and profits, and he leaves it at that,, without making any proposals to obtain these powers. He referred to the 6teps that I took with regard to legislation. May I remind him that one of the steps which I proposed to take, and in which I was baffled and ultimately defeated by his Party, was to obtain power, not only to ascertain the costs of production, but to ascertain profits in production and to deal with the profiteers in production? I think it is perfectly reasonable for us on this side to say that, if the right hon. gentleman were as earnest in his legislation as he is in his speeches, then when he is confronted with this difficulty he would come to this friendly House and obtain from it the necessary legislation to enable him to pursue his policy.

He proceeds in another paragraph to tell us that the cost of materials, in his opinion or in the opinion of his Department, have not contributed substantially to the present high costs of building in Scotland, and he admits that neither has the increase that has taken place in the wages of the workers. There have been two increases of Ad. an hour, making Id. an hour—unfortunately, the workers still think in halfpennies and pennies, when dealing with their grievances. He admits that neither the increase in the cost of materials, as far as he can discover—and his powers are very limited—nor the wages of the workers is responsible to any substantial extent for the high prices that are asked for houses from the local authorities. If neither the cost of materials nor the wages of the workers is responsible, where are we to look for the cause of these high costs? So far as I know, there are only two other elements. One is in the finance and banking that contribute something to the high cost, but I think that in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman the principal cause of these high costs, which he regards as unreasonable and which he has rejected, is to be found in the greed of the building contractors. If you get your problem narrowed down to that, it becomes one with which one may deal with comparative ease. If your contractors are clearly your exploiters, there is a way out of the difficulty. Why does not the right hon. Gentleman press the local authorities to do at least part of the work by direct labour? I know that in Scotland, unfortunately, the view still prevails that the advocacy of direct labour is Socialistic propaganda. But no such view prevails on this side of the Border. The Ministry of Health encourages local authorities to employ direct labour in England. They have found it very satisfactory. It is a check on the prices being charged by the building contractor. In the performance of a public duty in Glasgow, I made an appeal to the Corporation there to do some of their building by direct labour, in order that they might compare the cost of that method with the costs that were imposed upon them by the contractors.

I do not know any evidence that can be adduced in support of the view that direct labour is more costly so that you are taking no risk. So far as I know all the evidence is on the other side. I remember the Secretary for Scotland frankly admitting on a former occasion here that the Corporation of Glasgow had saved a considerable sum by the adoption of direct labour in the building of houses. If that was so, if you are taking no serious risk in it, why should not we press local authorities to adopt this course, at least partially? This is not a question of politics at all. As I said in a former discussion on this subject in this House, it is a matter of business. We are spending the taxpayers' money in subsidising the local authorities, and we are entitled to say to the local authorities, "You are not to use your influence in your respective councils to support a policy that will put profits in the pockets of your friends which come out of the contributions of the taxpayer. We, in return for this subsidy, are entitled to expect from you the very cheapest method of house construction, and you can only ascertain what is the cheapest method of house construction when you set side by side with the private contractor "—who is not only under suspicion but has been condemned by the right hon. Gentleman himself—" an alternative method of house-building that will enable you to test the prices that are being charged."

The right hon. Gentleman referred to the shortage of labour. It is so easy to throw the blame for the shortage of labour on the selfishness of the building operatives. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to pay some regard to the history of the present situation? Conditions as we find them do not arise spontaneously; they are the result of past conditions. What happened here was that the very insecurity of employment in the building industry drove the skilled workers of this country to foreign lands, and impressed the parents of the boys who might have become apprentices that this was not an industry into which they could send their sons with any reasonable prospect of regular employment. The right hon. Gentleman asked us why parents were not sending their children into this industry. That is why. He says that they have prospects now of 15 or 20 years' continuous employment, but have they? He himself admits that he stops building when costs get to a certain height. He has no power to prevent those costs from going up. The only way in which he can deal with the contractor is to stop building, and, in stopping building he is creating insecurity for the worker, and making him doubtful whether or not he will receive regular employment during the ensuing 12 months.

The building operative has seen building stopped under the Addison scheme, and slowing down at different times, and he is, naturally, afraid, because it is unnecessary for me to tell the right hon. Gentleman that what strikes the greatest-terror into the mind of a member of the working class is the fear of unemployment, and so he guards jealously and naturally the position he has, lest, in giving it away without ample security, he should jeopardise his chances of regular employment in the future. We agree with the right hon. Gentleman that there is an insufficiency of labour, and I did, in the Act of 1924, as he has reminded the House, lay down a scheme for augmenting labour in the building industry. He tells us that the building trade operatives are not carrying out that scheme with the generosity that we would all desire, but, here again, may I remind him that the root cause of that reluctance to carry out generously that policy is the fear that the present Government will not continue to provide employment at the rate the Labour Government had laid down as essential in order to provide security for those engaged in the industry? If the right hon. Gentleman wants to get a generous flow of apprentices into the industry, I would advise him, if I may, to make a public announcement that for the next 15 years the Government are prepared to carry out their side of the bargain which I made with industry when dealing with the scheme last year, on condition that the building industry are prepared to carry out their part in the transaction.

But then, realising that shortage—and we all admit it—the right hon. Gentleman blames us for putting difficulties in the way of alternative methods of construction. I do not think the Government can claim much credit for their handling of this question of alternative methods of housing construction. I remember quite well, when I was promoting the Bill of 1924, the eloquent speeches that were made from this side, practically telling me that there was no need for such legislation, because within three months Lord Weir or someone else was going to be turning out houses by mass production methods in such huge quantities that the housing conditions of this country would be revolutionised, and there would be really no need for bricklayers or plasterers. The right hon. Gentleman has favoured me with information this afternoon as to the actual position now in Scotland with regard to these steel houses, and I find that to-day, 12 months after those eloquent promises were made, we have had contracts fixed or approved for 191 such houses in Scotland. It is so easy to blame the working class for all that. The right hon. Gentleman cites the conditions in the Middle Ward of Lanarkshire as evidence that it is the selfishness of the operatives that is responsible for all this. Why does not he say it is the selfishness of Lord Weir in insisting that the ordinary trade union building rates will not be paid for the houses that he is offering to the community? Lord Weir says: "You can have houses on my terms." The operatives say: "You may have houses on our terms." Is there anything to choose between them? Is not Lord Weir, who is insisting on his terms for his houses, just acting as selfishly—if we deal for the moment with the selfishness of it —as the operatives who say: "You can have our labour on our terms"?

If I cared, and had time, to go into it, I should have no difficulty in showing that, of course, there is no comparison between the position of the two, the working classes are fighting for a standard of living, and if they let that go they are letting down themselves and their children to greater poverty than they are enduring at present. But there is a much stronger case than that. We have three firms in Scotland, I understand, who are prepared to produce these houses, and two of these three firms are prepared to produce them on the terms asked by the building trade operatives. They have gone to the building trade operatives, and have come to us as members of the Labour party, and have said, "The building trade people are right; we agree that they are right, and we are prepared to pay the rates of wages that they are asking Lord Weir to pay. "If two of these three firms are prepared to accept the view of the operatives as reasonable, why does not the right hon. Gentleman encourage those two firms? Why does not he place his orders with them. Why should he be always harping on the difficulties that confront Lord Weir?

May I remind him, again, that his failure is even greater? No single local authority in Scotland, with the possible exception of Glasgow, could afford to place an order sufficiently large to enable these houses to be produced by mass production methods at the lowest cost. I think that, if I were in the right hon. Gentleman's place, I would realise that, and would go to the people who are prepared to pay the trade union rates of wages, and with whom there is no quarrel, and would endeavour to make terms with them. And the terms that I would offer would be that I would give them an order for a number of houses sufficient to enable them to produce those houses at bed-rock cost. I would then, I think, as the Secretary for Scotland, representing the Government, act as the wholesale merchant of these houses to various local authorities. If you did that you would get your houses at the very lowest cost and you would be in a position to encourage the local authorities to depart from the attitude they have taken up. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that there is a certain amount of reluctance on the part of the authorities to face these houses. As a matter of fact, they do not believe in them. They do not believe in their durability. They think they will be costly and will put an extraordinary and unseen burden on the local rates. I do not know how far that is due to technical advice or how far to inherent conservatism, but undoubtedly it is there. But I think local authorities are also guilty of this. I should like to support the right hon. Gentleman against them on this point. I do not think they have yet realised that the provision of working-class houses is a permanent obligation on them. I think they still regard the present state of affairs as being temporary and transient, and if they can only hold out for a year or two, private enterprise will come into the field and provide houses for letting, as it did in the past. Very few well informed people on any side of the House will agree with that, and I think the fact should be impressed on the local authorities that we have passed through that stage and, whether it is for good or not, in the future, working-class houses for letting purposes have to be provided mainly, almost solely, by local authorities for the people in their areas. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that that view still prevails, and provides a difficulty with which we have to deal.