Orders of the Day — Supply.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 20 July 1925.

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Photo of Mr Vernon Hartshorn Mr Vernon Hartshorn , Ogmore

After the very interesting statement to which we have just listened, I do not think it would be in good taste for me to detain the Committee very long in anything I might have to say on the subject of the Post Office. I would like to avail myself of this opportunity, not having had the privilege during the very short time I occupied this office last year, to say a few words of a personal character. Naturally, after hearing from the Postmaster-General the nature, the magnitude and the variety of the activities with which the Post Office are engaged, it is easy to understand that one is pleased and proud to have been even for a. short time associated officially with such an important business. When I went there, I went with the bias which the public generally, I think, have against the Post Office. I had concluded, as a lot of other people in this country, that the Post Office-was all wrong and wanted putting right, and I also persuaded myself that I was the chap to do it. I came away with the conviction that the Post Office was the most wonderful piece of business organisation ever yet constructed in this world. I would like to say that I do not at all agree with the adverse criticism against the Post Office that is often made on the ground that the staff is inefficient from the business point of view. The men and women, from the Permanent Secretary down to those in the branches and the departments, are men and women of out standing ability and really very competent in the discharge of their work. They wholeheartedly placed their ability at my disposal, and assisted me with wholehearted co-operation in my work at the Post Office. I am pleased to have this opportunity of saying that publicly for a number of men and women for whom I have developed a high respect.

I am very sorry the Post Office is regarded in this country and by the Government as a sort of second-rate Department. I think my right hon. Friend is the fifth to occupy this office in three years. At the end of 1922 Mr. Kellaway was there and three Members of the present Cabinet, myself and the right hon. Gentleman have got in between 1922 and 1924. It has been regarded as-a sort of stepping stone for something higher. I think there is no more important Department in the State than the Post Office. 218,000 workpeople are employed, and I think it is generally admitted that they are a very devoted body of men and women. Among them is a standard of honesty, sobriety, and ability that compares very favourably with any section of the community. I agree with the Postmaster-General that in dealing with the complaints levelled against the Post Office it is essential that we should keep some sense of proportion. When I went to the Post Office to occupy the position which the right hon. Gentleman now occupies, I decided that I would learn the working of the Post Office by studying its defects as revealed in the complaints that reached the Department from the Post Office. I had every letter which was addressed to me personally placed on my table and I went through them personally, and after I had collected some 12 or 20 complaints—such as from people who generally got letters at 8.15 and one day got them at 8.20—I asked the head of that department to come and discuss with me why these complaints were written. Immediately he began pointing out that six or 12 or 20 or 100 or even 1,000 complaints from among about 300,000,000 was so infinitesimal in proportion to the business that the real surprise was that there were so few.

The general public do not quite appreciate how closely associated with the general business life of the community are the activities of the Post Office. I am very pleased that the Postmaster-General has given so full a statement of the magnitude of the work performed by his Department. I am sure that if more was done to make known the real volume performed, this Department would become the most popular institution in the land and the Postmaster-General's position would be the most envied in the Ministry. As a matter of fact, when I hear the representatives of big business sing the virtues of private enterprise and refer to the Post Office as an example of the failure of State organised business, I become very indignant. I envy their audacity and I admire their colossal impudence. I think that this Department should be regarded as one of first-class importance. Its status should be one such as to command the best brains of the country. I do not think it is a good thing that we should so long have continued to regard it as one of inferior importance. I should like also just to congratulate the Postmaster-General on having the Noble Lord as his lieutenant. Unfortunately, I attempted to do the work alone. The amount of work that falls to the Postmaster-General and his Assistant is certainly something which the public do not realise.

There is one part of the Postmaster-General's statement with which I am not quite satisfied. Unfortunately, we have got no statement from him which indicates that there is any immediate prospect of reductions in prices. In a business which is so closely associated with the general welfare of this country, a business whose efficiency and cheapness will do more, in my opinion, to hamper or help on the general business of the country than any other factor, I think it is very undesirable that the surpluses of the Post Office should be taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and used for purposes other than cheapening this great national service, which is so important and so much needed throughout the community. Last year we had to consider, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself, whether we could introduce any reduction. We were faced with a difficulty with which the Post Office is not now faced. We had the Sutton judgment hanging over our heads, with a contingent liability of some two or three million pounds. But for that fact we should have introduced penny postage last year. I did all I could in office to induce the legal advisers to push forward that judgment through the Courts, to get it disposed of, and to clear the way so that this year it might be possible to introduce penny postage.

I think the reduction in postage and telegraph charges would be a great advantage to the people of this country. In the year 1922, Parliament authorised a capital expenditure of £15,000,000, and last year a further expenditure of £17,000,000 for the development of our telephone system. The Postmaster-General has stated that he will again come to this House to ask for more money to further extend the telephone system. I know that at the present moment we are far behind other countries in the proportion of our population who use the telephone, but I also know that the schemes which our engineers have in hand will, when completely carried into effect, produce the most efficient telephone service in the world, or at any rate it will give us as great a service as is to be found even in America.

With regard to cables providing facilities for carrying additional traffic, it is important that when those cables are laid they should be able to carry new traffic. I think telephones ought to be cheapened and popularised. It is not sufficient simply to cheapen calls, because the rentals are far too high, and they ought to be reduced very considerably, so that we might be able to get a much larger number of subscribers. I am certain if the right hon. Gentleman is going to be successful in reducing these prices, he will have to put up a pretty stiff fight with the Chancellor of the Exchequer who is always pestered in this way by every Department of State. I am quite aware that it is the Ministry who prepares the strongest case and is most persistent that is likely to get most consideration at the hands of the Treasury. I know of no direction in which the surpluses of the Post Office can be more usefully and beneficially applied than in cheapening the great national public service for which this Department stands.

I wish now to say a word or two about Imperial wireless. I am a little bit dis- appointed that this scheme has not been further advanced at the present time. When my party went into office in January of last year we discovered that, although successive Governments had been dealing with Imperial wireless for about 14 years, nothing had been done, and the position had become exceedingly complicated. Australia had entered into an arrangement with the Marconi Company, and South Africa had done the same. Canada had already got a service from a private station here in this country, and in attempting to apply a national policy to that great Imperial service very considerable difficulties had to be overcome. As the Postmaster-General has explained, up to the middle of last year or the early part of last year, we had been proceeding on the assumption that we were to have a high-power system instead of the beam system. That involved A very considerable amount of communication with the Dominions and with South Africa, because they had to make arrangements by Acts of Parliament, and South Africa, and Canada had to be brought into line with the mother country, and all this involved a great deal of labour and occupied much time. All the complicated tangle, with which we were faced at the commencement of the year, was unravelled, and the whole position was made clear in six months, and by July of last year we presented to this House a contract, which was endorsed, and which is the basis upon which the contractor is now proceeding. Before I left the Post Office, arrangements had been made for the site upon which the two stations for Canada and South Africa are now proceeding, and an agreement had been reached between the Post Office and the Marconi Company, and the matter had been referred to the Office of Works to get the sites purchased. The only thing that was left for my right hon. Friend was to obtain sites for the stations to communicate with Australia and India. I am disappointed that the right hon. Gentleman has not completed that job before this time, and I do not think the same amount of energy can have been applied to this problem during his term of office as was given to it last year, or this matter would have been completed before now.

It is a question of very great importance, and the Dominions, more especially Canada, attach very great importance to having immediate means of communication with the Mother Country, and yet although this Government has been in office as long as the Labour Government were, with only this one job to do in this connection, the sites have not yet been placed at the disposal of the Marconi Company although the contractor is ready to carry out the work of erecting these two stations. I do not know how much longer it is going to take. The Postmaster-General says he has given the order, but that does not mean much unless he places the sites at the disposal of the contractor, because the time allowed is nine months from the date on which the sites are placed at the disposal of the Marconi Company. Up to now the sites have not been so placed. I do not know whether it is the landlords or who is standing in the way, but I regard this matter as being of sufficient importance that I hope the Postmaster-General will exercise any powers he may possess to sweep on one side the opposition of any individual standing in the way of getting this Imperial wireless scheme completed at the earliest possible moment. I was hoping that this matter might have been put in hand during this year, but if there is to be any further delay in getting these sites the probability is that another year will pass before Australia and India will be placed in wireless contact with this country.

The first business I had when I went to the Post Office was with the Prime Minister of Australia who had already interviewed the Prime Minister, and then he came to see me and I know from what he told me, and from reading the reports of the Imperial Conference how vitally important the Dominions regard this question, and for that reason I paid very great attention to it and devoted much time to getting this question settled, and I am disappoined that even to-day the sites for those two stations have not yet been placed at the disposal of the Marconi Company. I hope the Postmaster-General will not spare himself in any way and will use all the powers at his disposal to ensure that this is brought to completion at the earliest possible moment.

There has been some criticism of the Department on the action taken by the Postmaster-General on the ques- tion of an improved business organisation in the Department. I think from what I have already said the Committee will see that I am not one of those who believe in the theory that we have a mass of inefficiency at the Post Office, because I do not hold that view at all. On the other hand, it was held by the Committee which inquired into this question of Imperial wireless that, having regard to the magnitude of the new work that was to be undertaken, and because we have in addition to broadcasting the Imperial wireless scheme coming on, we shall have to consider what is to be the nation's policy in relation to British broadcasting. We have in these services a very big business, and, notwithstanding my conviction that we have as efficient men and women in the Post Office as are to be found anywhere else, I do think it is highly desirable that in the development of these great concerns the Postmaster-General should not make up his mind that necessarily the methods which have been successful in the treatment of other branches of the Post Office would also be equally successful in this connection. I hope he will not close his mind to the possibility of changed methods, and what they call modern up-to-date business lines, may be applied at any rate in a modified extent to the operations and working of these great services. I thank the Committee for having listened to me for so long. I am sure the Postmaster-General cannot say that I have indulged in carping criticism or that I have been unfriendly to the Department. I feel very keenly on this Imperial wireless business, and I hope whatever difficulties are in the way the right hon. Gentleman will devote his time and energy and the powers at his disposal to getting this business completed at the earliest possible moment.