Clause 18. — (Widows and orphans pensions when husband or parent died before the commencement of Act.)

Orders of the Day — Contributory Pensions Bill. – in the House of Commons on 14th July 1925.

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Photo of Sir Smedley Crooke Sir Smedley Crooke , Birmingham Deritend

I beg to move, in page 17, line 34, after the word "force," to insert the words or if the deceased husband served in His Majesty's forces for a period of seven days or more during the great War. This Amendment relates to the widows of ex-service men who served in the Forces and engaged in a one-man business with the aid of funds from the Civil Liabilities Fund. Since 1919 over 118,000 men have been set up from the Civil Liabilities Fund and since 1920 more than 3,700 men have been started in business on small loans. Under the Bill the widows of these men would not be eligible. The question may be raised as to why the period of seven days is inserted. That is put in because that is the qualifying period to enable a man to join the British Legion. I understand the branches of the British Legion throughout the country are anxious that this should be allowed.

Photo of Mr Neville Chamberlain Mr Neville Chamberlain , Birmingham, Ladywood

I will not discuss the point as to whether widows of men who served for so short a period as seven days in the Great War should be entitled to benefits that are not given to the widows of any other men, because whatever the merits of the case might be, this is really not a Bill in which to insert a provision of that kind. This is a contributory scheme of pensions linked up with the National Insurance Act, and a provision of this kind cuts right across the whole fundamental basis of the scheme and takes no account whatever of the insurable status or the connection of the deceased with insurance. Under those circumstances it would be impossible for me to accept the Amendment, and I hope my hon. Friend will not think it necessary to press it.

4.0 P.M.

Photo of Commander Hon. Joseph Kenworthy Commander Hon. Joseph Kenworthy , Kingston upon Hull Central

I am sure hon. Members in all parts of the House heard the right hon. Gentleman's speech, which was short and very much to the point, with disappointment. I think he swept aside the intentions of the Amendment for altogether inadequate reasons. This is a Bill to give pensions to widows with young children. That is the salient feature of the whole Bill, and it is carrying cut part of an undertaking given by the present Government through their leaders during the last Election. Suppose at that time the Prime Minister —I was otherwise engaged, and did not attend his meetings—was asked, "Will this widows' pension scheme that you are pledging the Conservative party to apply to the widows of men who served in the War where they are not otherwise entitled to a pension?" does anyone suppose he would have hesitated to say, "Undoubtedly it will. If I can possibly do it I shall do so." Of course, he would probably save himself by saying he would have to consult experts and actuaries, as experienced politicians like the Prime Minister do, but he would not have got up and made a reply like that of the Minister of Health at all. He would not have said: "This is a contributory insurance scheme and this is not the place nor the time to put it in." If you are going to make the Bill retrospective in the case of those men because they were employed in insured occupations, are you going to say that service in His Majesty's Forces is not an insurable occupation, and is not worthy of attention in the same way as service in a trade or industry? Take the case of two brothers, one of whom was not allowed to go to the front because his work was required in a munition factory, and the other of whom did go to the front. A week before this Bill comes into operation both of them are killed, perhaps in the same accident. The widow of the one gets a pension, and the widow of the other is not entitled to a, pension. The thing will not bear a moment's examination. Any body of ordinary, simple-minded, common-sense people who look at the rough justice of these things, which after all is very often most valuable, would agree that you could not tell the widow of the man deprived of her pension: "Well, this is an Insurance Bill, and it only applies to certain employments, or to people earning under a certain amount of money." "But," this woman would say, "My sister-in-law is getting it." "Yes, but her husband was in insured employment." "But was not my husband in insured employment?" "No, he was a hawker—or he kept a shop—because he went into the Army and did not continue working in the factory." That is not a far-fetched example of the injustice that will be done if this Amendment be not accepted. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will press this Amendment until the right hon. Gentleman gives way. At any rate, we ought to have much more adequate reasons than those given by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech.

Photo of Mr Walter Womersley Mr Walter Womersley , Grimsby

I hope the Minister will reconsider his decision. Many of us know the difficulties under which these men have laboured trying to establish a small business. Many of them have established these businesses because during the War period the younger men missed their opportunity of being taught a trade, and because many of those who had followed a trade beforehand found when they came back that they could no longer follow that trade. They were able, with assistance such as the hon. Member for Deritend (Mr. Smedley Crooke), who moved the Amendment, described, to start some small business. The whole question is whether men with small businesses in receipt of incomes under £250 per year ought to come under the voluntary Clauses of this Bill, and it is one which I hope the Minister will consider.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

I cannot help thinking that the hon. Member is mistaking the Amendment which we are discussing. It is to add the words or if the deceased husband served in His Majesty's forces for a period of seven days or more during the great War.

Photo of Mr Walter Womersley Mr Walter Womersley , Grimsby

I understood that was the Amendment.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

I thought that the hon. Member was arguing the special position of those in business and not insured, but perhaps he will be able to connect his argument with the case of ex-service men.

Photo of Mr Walter Womersley Mr Walter Womersley , Grimsby

I bow to your ruling, and will only add that I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider his decision in this matter. There is a strong feeling, even among his own party, in favour of this Amendment, and, personally, I shall be most disappointed if he does not promise to go into the matter further, so that something may be done on the Report stage.

Photo of Mr George Buchanan Mr George Buchanan , Glasgow Gorbals

I know that the Minister has already made a concession in the case of men who have served two years in the Army, and I would ask him whether he could not go a step further and accept at least some modification of this Amendment. I agree that a good number of men have entered into small businesses who in normal time would never have done so. Those men served in the Army, not possibly for two years, but for some shorter period, and I hope, in view of all the circumstances, in view of the large increase in this class of men, who are well deserving the sympathy and support of Members of this House, that the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider his decision.

Photo of Mr Arthur Dixey Mr Arthur Dixey , Penrith and Cockermouth

I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he could not see his way to accept this Amendment. These are most deserving people, and, even if the period of seven days be too short, I personally think that they are more entitled to consideration than any other class in the country. Therefore, I would beg the Government to consider whether they could not accept this very reasonable Amendment.

Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON:

I would like to join in the appeal which has been made by Members on all sides of the Committee. The Minister has stated that this Amendment cuts across the contributory system, and that, if we accept it, many will be admitted who have not contributed to the scheme. I submit that that is the case with regard to all who come under this Clause. Although they may be deemed to be insured, they have not been insured for the purposes of this Act. Therefore, the whole of the beneficiaries who come under this Clause will not have contributed, and there is nothing contrary to that principle in accepting the Amendment. I hope that if the Minister cannot accept it in its present form, he will at least accept it with a slight extension of the period.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 133; Noes, 214.

Division No. 270]AYES.[4.9 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)Rose, Frank H.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Hirst, G. H.Salter, Dr. Alfred
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHirst, W. (Bradford, South)Sexton, James
Attlee, Clement RichardHore-Belisha, LeslieShaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barnes, A.Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Batey, JosephJohn, William (Rhondda, West)Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Broad, F. A.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bromley, J.Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Buchanan, G.Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Charleton, H. C.Kelly, W. T.Snell, Harry
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.Kennedy, T.Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Compton, JosephKenyon, BarnetSprot, Sir Alexander
Cove, W. G.Kirkwood, D.Stamford, T. W.
Crooks, J. Smedley (Deritend)Lansbury, GeorgeStephen, Campbell
Cunliffe, Joseph HerbertLawson, John JamesStewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Dalton, HughLee, F.Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Livingstone, A. M.Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)
Day, Colonel HarryLowth, T.Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Dunnico, H.Lunn, WilliamThorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)Tinker, John Joseph
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
England, Colonel A.Mackinder, W.Viant, S. P.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Malone, Major P. B.Wallhead, Richard C.
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.March, S.Warne, G. H.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.Maxton, JamesWatson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Gibbins, JosephMond, Rt. Hon. Sir AlfredWatts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Gillett, George M.Montague, FrederickWebb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Gosling, HarryMorris, R. H.Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Greenall, T.Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, North)Westwood, J.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)Naylor, T. E.Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Oliver, George HaroldWhiteley, W.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Wiggins, William Martin
Groves, T.Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Grundy, T. W.Pielou, D. P.Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)Ponsonby, ArthurWilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Potts, John S.Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Rees, Sir BeddoeWindsor, Walter
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Womersley, W. J.
Hardle, George D.Ritson, J.Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Harney, E. A.Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)
Harris, Percy A.Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonRobinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy and
Hayday, ArthurRobinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)Mr. Dixey.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelBullock, Captain M.Dawson, Sir Philip
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir AlanDean, Arthur Wellesley
Ainsworth, Major CharlesBurman, J. B.Doyle, Sir N. Grattan
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)Butler, Sir GeoffreyDrewe, C.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Cadogan, Major Hon. EdwardEdmondson, Major A. J.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.Campbell, E. T.Elliot, Captain Walter E.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Cauttey, Sir Henry S.Elveden, Viscount
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Astor, ViscountessCazalet, Captain Victor A.Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Balniel, LordCecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)Everard, W. Lindsay
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Chapman, Sir S.Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.Christie, J. A.Fanshawe, Commander G. D.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)Clarry, Reginald GeorgeFermoy, Lord
Berry, Sir GeorgeClayton, G. C.Fleming, D. P.
Betterton, Henry B.Cobb, Sir CyrilFord, P. J.
Blades, Sir George RowlandCochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Blundell, F. N.Cooper, A. DuffFoxcroft, Captain C. T.
Bourne, Captain Robert CroftCooper, J. B.Frece, Sir Walter de
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Brass, Captain W.Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryGanzoni, Sir John
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveCrookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Briggs, J. HaroldCurzon, Captain ViscountGibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Goff, Sir Park
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)Gower, Sir Robert
Buckingham, Sir H.Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)Grace, John
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William JamesDavison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)Greene, W. P. Crawford
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E)Lougher, L.Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wills, Westb'y)
Gretton, Colonel JohnLumley, L. R.Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.MacAndrew, Charles GlenSkelton, A. N.
Gunston, Captain D. W.McDonnell, Colonel Hon. AngusSlaney, Major P. Kenyon
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Macintyre, IanSmith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Hall, Vice Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)McLean, Major A.Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Hammersley, S. S.McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald JohnSmithers, Waldron
Hanbury, C.MacRobert, Alexander M.Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph HenryMaitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Harland, A.Manningham-Buller, Sir MervynSteel, Major Samuel Strang
Harrison, G. J. C.Margesson, Capt. D.Strickland, Sir Gerald
Hartington, Marquess ofMeller, R. J.Styles, Captain H. Walter
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)Meyer, Sir FrankSueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Haslam, Henry C.Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Hawke, John AnthonyMonsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.Moore, Sir Newton J.Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)Turton, Edmund Russborough
Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveVaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Murchison, C. K.Waddington, R.
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Nelson, Sir FrankWallace, Captain D. E.
Homan, C. W. J.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.Nuttall, EllisWarrender, Sir Victor
Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Oakley, T.Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Hume-Williams, Sir W. EllisOrmsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamWatson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Huntingfield, LordPenny, Frederick GeorgeWatts, Dr. T.
Hurst, Gerald B.Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)Wells, S. R.
Hutchison, G. A. Clark(Midl'n & P'bl's)Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)White, Lieut.-Colonel G Dairymple
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.Pilcher, G.Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)Pilditch, Sir PhilipWilliams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Jacoh, A. E.Raine, W.Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. CuthbertRamsden, E.Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Jephcott, A. R.Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. PeelWinterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)Wise, Sir Fredric
Kindersley, Major Guy M.Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementRopner, Major L.Wolmer, Viscount
Lamb, J. Q.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipSalmon, Major I.
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)Sandeman, A. StewartMajor Sir Harry Barnston and
Loder, J. de V.Sandon, LordMajor Cope.

The following Amendment stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. BASIL PETO: in page 17, line 34, after the word "force," to insert the words, or if the deceased husband served in the police, Post Office, or any Civil Service employment under conditions which did not provide for a pension for his widow, and whose rate of pay at the time of his retirement or decease was such as to have qualified him to be insured under the Insurance Act had he been in insurable employment.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

With respect to the Amendment which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Basil Peto), he has also a New Clause on the Paper—(Widows of persons in Civil Service employment)—which covers very much the same ground, and I should have thought that it would be better to deal with the subject on the New Clause, whether in its present form or otherwise. If the hon. Member wishes to tell me why the Amendment should be taken now, I should be glad to hear him.

Mr. PETO:

My desire to move the Amendment now was in view of what the Minister of Health said yesterday. I want to raise the question now in order to give him time to consider the matter before the new Clauses are reached, in the hope that some provision may be made of an even more beneficial character.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

What was in my mind was that if T called the hon. Member now, my mind might be a little biased when it came to the question of selecting his Now Clause. I do not know whether he is willing to take the risk of that.

Mr. PETO:

In view of that statement, I should like to facilitate the proceedings this afternoon and to wait for the New Clause.

Photo of Mr Herbert Williams Mr Herbert Williams , Reading

I beg to move, in page 18, line 6, at the end, to insert the words or if the widow is over fifty years of age and is without children under fourteen years of age, in which case she shall receive a widow's pension in no case exceeding ten shillings a week, and calculated in the same manner as need pensions under the royal warrant for war pensions. Many of us have received communications from elderly widows without children under 14 who are under a certain sense of grievance because, obviously, they have no legal claim and will not benefit in any way under this Bill. In order to attempt to meet these cases, I and my hon. Friends who are associated with me have drafted this Amendment. I have endeavoured to make some investigation as to what this Amendment involves. Between the ages of 50 and 55 there are 134,000 widows without children under 14; between 55 and 60 there are 214,000; between 60 and 65 there are 255,000; and between 65 and 70 there are 279,000. A great number of these are not widows of insured persons. I have endeavoured to the best of my ability to make an estimate of the number of persons who would be affected by this Amendment if it were incorporated in the Bill. In the first group, that is, widows between the age of 50 and 55, there are about 100,000 who would be affected; between the ages of 55 and 60 there would be 150,000; between 60 and 65 there would be 160.000; and between 65 and 70 about 150,000.

Altogether, there are between 500,000 and 600,000 widows between the ages of 50 and 70 without children under 14. They represent an enormous burden and a burden so great that if this Amendment were incorporated in the Bill in its bare form it would wreck the finance of the Bill. But the Amendment is drawn in such a way that they do not get necessarily the full pension. We have used the existing machinery—namely, the method of calculating the need pensions under the Royal Warrant for the purpose of assessing these pensions. I estimate that the cost would be £8,000,000 in the first year, which would diminish and would be gradually wiped out in 15 or 20 years. I had no conception of the immense burden that this Amendment represented in the first instance. I cannot hope that the Minister will accept it, but I move it formally because it would be very valuable that we should have a statement from the Minister in order to let these people know what an immense burden this ex gratia payment to thorn would mean. We must recognise that the whole of the payments to the existing widows and orphans are acts of grace and are not pensions paid of right because of contribution;. I move the Amendment, although under the circumstances I do not expect the Minister to accept it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Will you vote for it? "] No, I shall not vote for it in that form. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why waste time?"] I am not wasting time. It is only right that these large numbers of people who may have a sense of grievance should be informed of the circumstances, because their sense of grievance may disappear when they realise the financial obligation that would be imposed on the country if this benefit were extended to them.

Photo of Sir Douglas Hogg Sir Douglas Hogg , St Marylebone

My hon. Friend has stated the answer to his own Amendment, and I can hardly improve on it. The fact that he has stated the answer is no discredit to him. It is an easy thing to move grants of public money, but it is not always easy to find the money. This Clause does not give a contributory pension at all. It gives, as a free gift from the State, a pension to certain classes of persons, although nothing whatever has been paid by themselves, or by their employers, or their husband's employers, or their husbands in respect of the benefits which we are conferring. We have felt it right, and I think the Committee will unanimously support our view, that a grant of that kind should be given in certain cases. Obviously, when we are giving a free grant of that kind it is necessary very closely to limit the class who can claim it, and we have thought it right to limit it to that class whose economic condition more especially demands help, namely, the widow with young children whom she has to keep at home and who is debarred very largely from entering into the wage-earning class.

The same strength of argument does not apply in the case of the childless widow. In discussing the earlier Clauses, suggestions were made that the childless widow should be left out altogether. It would cost an enormous sum of money to include the widows referred to in this Amendment. The hon. Member's own estimate of the total number was 500,000. Our estimate came to approximately 600,000. It is impossible to frame any reliable estimate as to how many widows would come within the need pension provision, as we have no material on which to make a calculation, nor have we the machinery available to investigate and find out in regard to each widow whether or not she could qualify for a need pension. While I entirely sympathise with the motives which induced my hon. Friend to put this Amendment on the Paper, the Government cannot, for the reasons which he himself has suggested, accept it.

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

I am sorry that, after making an overwhelming case for the Amendment, the hon. Member has not the courage to move it in a particular form or, alternatively, to find a form which would meet the hardship. Here you are going to have a serious anomaly. You will have sections of respectable, hard-working women who, through the accident of circumstances, are outside the scope of the Bill. The State has to be careful to prevent a sense of injustice among citizens. As the law is going to be, you will have one class, an equally deserving class, deprived of benefits which widows who are no more deserving will enjoy. If the Minister is not prepared because of the financial difficulty to accept this Amendment, he has an obligation to these people to try and draft some Clause that will meet their case and remove that sense of injustice which is inevitable if we pass the Bill in its present form.

Photo of Mr James Hudson Mr James Hudson , Huddersfield

It is a long time since we witnessed such a fumbling process as we have had this afternoon in connection with this Amendment. The Mover of the Amendment gave justifiable reasons for this step to be carried through. He knows that there are a large number of widows over the age of 50, especially in the present economic conditions, who are extremely hard hit. It does no good coming here to talk about these hard cases and then doing nothing further. We are told there is not the money. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the cruisers?"] If it comes to a question of cruisers, you could find the money by dropping one cruiser.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

This argument is outside the scope of the Debate.

Photo of Mr James Hudson Mr James Hudson , Huddersfield

One might say that if it were a question of finding the money, the hon. Member who moved the Amendment could see at once from the hint given to him by one of his own hon. Friends a way in which this money could be found. What seems to be wrong is that hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side know the justice of the case that has been put forward and have the power to see that justice is done, but when the crux comes they fail entirely in their duty, and pretend that the full duty has been done by merely making a speech on a very serious issue. If the hon. Member is not prepared to take a stand on this matter, we propose to do so, and we hope that other hon. Members will go into the Division Lobby with us.

Photo of Rear-Admiral Tufton Beamish Rear-Admiral Tufton Beamish , Lewes

I am delighted to retreat gracefully from this Amendment, to which my name is attached. It has served a very admirable lesson to hon. Members opposite, as showing what ought to be done when a thing is closely investigated. Instead of throwing away the nation's money we withdraw and live to fight another day for the people who are deserving.

Photo of Mr Francis Broad Mr Francis Broad , Edmonton

We have witnessed a remarkable performance, more appropriate to a skittle alley than to the House of Commons. You put up your dollies and then you knock them down. The Committee ought to be treated more seriously. It may be regarded as a smart piece of electioneering, but we are not on the electioneering platform to-day. I hope the Committee will see the justice of this claim. A very large proportion of these people will be a charge on the community, but not on the right section of the community; not on those who are receiving incomes on a scale subject to Super-tax. These widows have passed the prime of life and find it almost impossible to get employment. Most of them have to seek help from the Poor Law to get a living and have to try to eke out a miserable existence doing an odd day's charing, and we should recognise our responsibility to them. The Attorney-General said that we have no machinery for estimating these cases. We have already machinery for investigating the old age pensions. The Pensions Committee, which is a very suitable and experienced body, could investigate these cases. I hope that we shall go to a vote on this question and that the Committee will recognise our responsibility to these middle-aged and old women, who have done their duty to the community, and give them something in their old age.

Captain ARTHUR EVANS:

I am very glad that the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. H. Williams) has brought forward this Amendment and pointed out the impossibility of giving effect to the numerous suggestions which come from the Socialist Benches and from the Liberal Benches. It is well to remember the general impossibility of numerous suggestions which show how the hon. Members endeavour to gain on the roundabouts as well as on the swings. They criticise us violently for what we have done and they say what they would have done, and—

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

The hon. and gallant Member must deal with the Amendment.

Photo of Mr Leslie Hore-Belisha Mr Leslie Hore-Belisha , Plymouth, Devonport

An extraordinary argument has been used by the hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down. The Minister justifies this Clause on the ground that it gives effect to the non-contributory principle. What happens, then, to the argument of demoralisation and the stigma of charity? If you are going to apply the non-contributory principle, you should apply it in the case of an unfortunate class of people who never had a chance of paying contributions and who are a most deserving class. The Attorney-General says that women who have no young children to bring up should be given this 10s. a week and be abstracted from the labour market. This is an Amendment to bring in those who have brought up children and rendered service to the community and who are no longer able to work. They are not to get a single farthing. They will look on the opposition to this scheme with feelings of disgust and disappointment. It is intolerable that these women who have worked hard all their lives are not to get a farthing while you are to give a free gift to young widows with very much more money than these women have ever had to play with in their lives. If there is one class which has a greater sense of grievance than another it is this class of widows of from 55 to 65 who have brought up families and rendered service to the State and who are to be left destitute so far as this Bill is concerned. If you are going to draw distinctions you must bring forward some argument. No argument has been brought forward by the Attorney-General. What he says merely amounts to saying "we are giving this as a free gift." That is not an argument that can be sustained, because if you give a free gift to a less deserving section of the community you must, if you are to have any regard to logic, give the same gift to the most deserving section of the community.

Photo of Miss Ellen Wilkinson Miss Ellen Wilkinson , Middlesbrough East

I think that this Amendment must have been moved as the result of a very large number of appealing letters which hon. Members on all sides of the House have been receiving for the last few weeks. My postbag has been full of appeals from women who say that they have slaved to bring up their children. Some of them have brought up children whom they expected to maintain them in their old age. The War and various chances of life have taken those children from them and they are now left destitute. Many of them are going to the Poor Law which they hate. Many of them are trying to struggle along without going to the Poor Law, and the point of all these letters is the same. "We have tried to hang on in the hope that something would be done for us." They saw in this Bill the possibility of something being done, but I am afraid that they are going to discover that Tory social reform is Dead Sea fruit indeed, and, so far as these women are concerned, it is going to turn fast to ashes in their mouths. But these women might at least have been spared the insult offered by the hon. Member for Beading in bringing forward the Amendment and then making such a speech as to defeat the Amendment before it was put before a Committee.

I suggest that that is electioneering of the worst description. It shows that even the hon. Member for Reading realises that something ought to have been done, but that at the back of his mind is the feeling that he must not give anything to the poor, but that it is sufficient to be able to say you have made a speech. I would suggest that speeches made in this House are not going to fill the empty pantries of these women who have struggled so far. The young able-bodied woman of 20 is to have a pension of 10s. a week when she has no children to bring up, but these women who have rendered service to the State, and have struggled along and worn themselves out in rendering that service so that they are no longer able to compete in the labour market, are to be told "we will give to the young women but you can go to the Poor Law." I hope that this Amendment is; not going to be treated in the frivolous spirit in which it was moved. We are deadly serious about it and I hope that it will be pressed to a Division.

Photo of Mr Herbert Williams Mr Herbert Williams , Reading

I do not think that I was particularly frivolous in moving the Amendment. I tried to be deadly serious and to point out its serious implication. It is easy to get up and make the kind of speech which, when it is reported, is likely to do you good, but I do not think that I stand to gain very much politically in explaining why I am

not supporting my own Amendment, and to charge me with electioneering on those grounds is utterly futile. I have explained to a great many of those who have communicated with me the difficulties of giving effect to what they desire, and I only hope that those who have seen fit to criticise me have been as honest with their correspondents as I have been with mine.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 126; Noes, 243.

Division No. 271.]AYES.[4.42 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Hardle, George D.Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Harney, E. A.Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Harris, Percy A.Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonRose, Frank H.
Attlee, Clement RichardHayday, ArthurSalter, Dr. Alfred
Baker, WalterHenderson, T. (Glasgow)Scrymgeour, E.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)Hirst, G. H.Sexton, James
Barnes, A.Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Barr, J.Hore-Belisha, LeslieShiels, Dr. Drummond
Batey, JosephHudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Broad, F. A.Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bromley, J.John, William (Rhondda, West)Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Buchanan, G.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Charleton, H. C.Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Snell, Harry
Clowes, S.Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Cluse, W. S.Kelly, W. T.Stamford, T. W.
Clynes, Right Hon. John R.Kennedy, T.Stephen, Campbell
Compton, JosephKenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph MStewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Connolly, M.Kenyon, BarnetThomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Cove, W. G.Kirkwood, D.Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Lawson, John JamesThorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Dalton, HughLee, F.Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Lindley, F. W.Tinker, John Joseph
Day, Colonel HarryLivingstone, A. M.Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Dennison, R.Lowth, T.Viant, S. P.
Dunnico, H.Lunn, WilliamWallhead, Richard C.
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
England, Colonel A.Mackinder, W.Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer)March, S.Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.Maxton, JamesWedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.Montague, FrederickWestwood, J.
Gibbins, JosephMorris, R. H.Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Gillett, George M.Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)Whiteley, W.
Gosling, HarryNaylor, T. E.Wiggins, William Martin
Greenall, T.Oliver, George HaroldWilkinson, Ellen C.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Owen, Major G.Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Groves, T.Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Grundy, T. W.Ponsonby, ArthurWindsor, Walter
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)Potts, John S.Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hall, Fredk. (Yorks, Normanton)Rees, Sir Beddoe
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Ritson, J.Mr. Warne and Mr. Charles
Edwards.
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.Barnston, Major Sir HarryBoyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Ainsworth, Major CharlesBeamish, Captain T. P. H.Brass, Captain W.
Alexander, E. E (Leyton)Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)Briggs, J. Harold
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Berry, Sir GeorgeBroun-Lindsay, Major H.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.Blades, Sir George RowlandBrown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Astor, ViscountessBlundell, F. N.Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyBoothby, R. J. G.Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Balniel, LordBourne, Captain Robert CroftBullock, Captain M.
Banks, Reginald MitchellBowyer, Captain G. E. W.Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan
Burman, J. B.Haslam, Henry C.Oakley, T.
Butler, Sir GeoffreyHawke, John AnthonyOrsmby-Gore, Hon. William
Campbell, E. T.Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Penny, Frederick George
Cautley, Sir Henry S.Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)Hennessy, Major J. R. G.Pielou, D. P.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.Pilcher, G.
Chapman, Sir S.Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)Pilditch, Sir Philip
Charterls, Brigadier-General J.Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Preston, William
Christie, J. A.Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Price, Major C. W. M.
Clarry, Reginald GeorgeHogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Raine, W.
Clayton, G. C.Holt, Capt. H. P.Ramsden, E.
Cobb, Sir CyrilHoman, C. W. J.Rentoul, G. S.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Cooper, A. DuffHopkins, J. W. W.Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Cope, Major WilliamHorlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.Ropner, Major L.
Couper, J. B.Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryHudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)Rye, F. G.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)Hume-Williams, Sir W. EllisSalmon, Major I.
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)Huntingfield, LordSamuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Hurst, Gerald B.Sandeman, A. Stewart
Cunliffe, Joseph HerbertHutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n& P'bl's)Sandon, Lord
Dalkeith, Earl ofInskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Hoyton)Jacob, A. E.Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil)James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. CuthbertSinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)Jephcott, A. R.Skelton, A. N.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Dawson, Sir PhilipKinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementSmith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Dean, Arthur WellesleyLamb, J. Q.Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Dixey, A. C.Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.Smithers, Waldron
Doyle, Sir N. GrattanLister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipSomerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Drewe, C.Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)Sprot, Sir Alexander
Edmondson, Major A. J.Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Elliot, Captain Walter E.Loder, J. de V.Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Elveden, ViscountLooker, Herbert WilliamSteel, Major Samuel Strang
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)Lougher, L.Stott, Lieut.-Colon I. W. H.
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamStuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Everard, W. LindsayLuce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanStyles, Captain H. Walter
Fairfax, Captain J. G.Lumley, L. R.Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Falle, Sir Bertram G.MacAndrew, Charles GlenSugden, Sir Wilfred
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Fermoy, LordMcDonnell, Colonel Hon. AngusThompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Fleming, D. P.McLean, Major A.Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Ford, P. J.Macnaghten, Hon. Sir MalcolmThomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald JohnTurton, Edmund Russborough
Frece, Sir Walter deMacRobert, Alexander M.Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. SteelWaddington, R.
Ganzoni, Sir JohnMaking, Brigadier-General E.Wallace, Captain D. E.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew HamiltonMalone, Major P. B.Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamManningham-Buller, Sir MervynWarner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMargesson, Captain D.Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Goft, Sir ParkMarriott, Sir J. A. R.Watts, Dr. T.
Gower, Sir RobertMeller, R. J.Wells, S. R.
Grace, JohnMeyer, Sir FrankWheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Greene, W. P. CrawfordMilne, J. S. Wardlaw-White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Grotrian, H. BrentMonsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Gunston, Captain D. W.Moore, Sir Newton J.Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)
Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)Moreing, Captain A. H.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hammersley, S. S.Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)Wise, Sir Fredric
Hanbury, C.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveWolmer, Viscount
Hannon, Patrick Joseph HenryMurchison, C. K.Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)
Harland, A.Nelson, Sir FrankWood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Harrison, G. J. C.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Hartington, Marquess ofNicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir HerbertTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)Nuttall, EllisCaptain Douglas Hacking and
Captain Viscount Curzon.

Photo of Mr Gerald Harrison Mr Gerald Harrison , Bodmin

I beg to move, in page 18, line 6, at the end, to insert the words or if the widow is without children and by reason of infirmity is unable to maintain herself. I will not apologise to the House for seeking to help a category of people who, I am sure, have the sympathy of all, and' of none more than of the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench. The case of these people requires no special pleading. I will give one reason only, though many could be given. The women whom I am seeking to relieve are mainly those who are in receipt of Poor Law relief already. On the other hand, I know that there are others who, to avoid the stigma of Poor Law relief, are in an even more miserable condition. I know quite well that to ask for all existing widows to be dealt with under the Bill would upset entirely the actuarial basis of the Bill. Therefore I content myself with asking that infirmity should be made the sole reason for a widow's inclusion under my Amendment. If the right hon. Gentleman cannot accept the Amendment now, I hope that he will find some form of words that will meet the case on the Report stage.

Photo of Sir Douglas Hogg Sir Douglas Hogg , St Marylebone

This Amendment has been considered by the Government and by those advising as to the finance of the scheme, and we are informed that it would be quite impossible for us to hold out any hope that we could accept the Amendment. The difficulties, so far as we are able to give them to the Committee, are these: There are in the population about 1,250,000 widows of all ages under 70, exclusive of war widows. Of these, it is expected that about 196,000 will receive pensions under Clause 18 as at present drawn. From the remainder one has to deduct those whose husbands have no insurance qualifications. That probably leaves about 600,000 widows. How many of those would be infirm we have no means of estimating, but they must be a considerable number. If they are insured persons they are presumably in receipt of disablement benefit. Of the remainder, if this Amendment were to add only 20,000 to the total pension Bill, the effect would be that in the 10 years during which the present provision is made of £4,000.000 a year, the scheme would be hopelessly bankrupt. The

position, therefore, is that the suggested plan would be extraordinarily difficult to administer. It would be necessary to have inquiries in every case as to whether or not every applicant was unable to maintain herself by reason of infirmity. Presumably, it would be necessary to have machinery under which, from time to time, we would have to ascertain whether that infirmity or disability had passed away, and the cost which would be thrown upon the Exchequer would be such as to make acceptance of the Amendment impossible. While we have every sympathy with the object that my hon. Friend has in view, I am sorry that we cannot promise him that we can accept his proposal.

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

I quite see the difficulties in the Amendment as it is worded, but would not the case be met if the word "permanent" were inserted before "infirmity"? One knows, in the administration of war pensions, that there are permanent disabilities which are recognised as incurable. It certainly does seem hard that a sick widow, unable to keep herself through illness, should be forced into a workhouse, while a young woman, owing to the fact that her husband came under the insurance scheme, would get the full benefit of this Bill. Could not the Government consider some form of words that would meet the case of the widow not now coming under the Act but suffering from permanent disability? These cases might well be treated in special terms. Therefore, I support the Amendment, with the alteration I have suggested.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 97; Noes, 189.

Division No. 272.]AYES.[4.56 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Dalton, HughHarris, Percy A.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Harrison, G. J. C.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Day, Colonel HarryHenderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)
Ammon, Charles GeorgeEdwards, John H. (Accrington)Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Attlee, Clement RichardEngland, Colonel A.Hirst, G. H.
Baker, WalterEvans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)Gillett, George M.Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Barnes, A.Gosling, HarryHudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Barr, J.Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)John, William (Rhondda, West)
Batey, JosephGrenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Bromley, J.Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Kelly, W. T.
Buchanan, G.Groves, T.Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Charleton, H. C.Grundy, T. W.Kirkwood, D.
Cluse, W. S.Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)Lawson, John James
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Lee, F.
Connolly, M.Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Livingstone, A. M.
Cove, W. G.Hardle, George D.Lowth, T.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Harney, E. A.MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)
March, S.Shiels, Dr. DrummondWestwood, J.
Montague, FrederickShort, Alfred (Wednesbury)Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)Whiteley, W.
Naylor, T. E.Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)Wiggins, William Martin
Oliver, George HaroldSmith, Rennie (Penistone)Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Snell, HarryWilliams. David (Swansea, East)
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Snowden, Rt. Hon. PhilipWilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Potts, John S.Stamford, T. W.Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Rees, Sir BeddoeThomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)Windsor, Walter
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)Womersley, W. J.
Ritson, J.Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Roberts, Rt. Hon. F.O.(W. Bromwich)Tinker, John Joseph
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.-
Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stratford)Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.
Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)Webb, Rt. Hon. SidneyWarne.
Scrymgeour, E.Wedgwood Rt. Hon. Josiah
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelGilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMurchison, C. K.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.Goff, Sir ParkNelson, Sir Frank
Ainsworth, Major CharlesGower, Sir RobertNewman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Albery, Irving JamesGrace, JohnNicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld.)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E.)Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.Grotrian, H. BrentNuttall, Ellis
Ashley, Lt.-Col Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Oakley, T.
Astor, ViscountessGunston, Captain D. W.Orsmby-Gore, Hon. William
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyHacking, Captain Douglas H.Pennefather, Sir John
Banks, Reginald MitchellHall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)Pielou, D. p.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)Hanbury, C.Pilditch, Sir Philip
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.Harland, A.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Bennett, A. J.Hartington, Marquess ofPreston, William
Berry, Sir GeorgeHarvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)Raine, W.
Blades, Sir George RowlandHaslam, Henry C.Ramsden, E.
Boothby, R. J. G.Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Bourne, Captain Robert CrottHenderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxl'd, Henley)Rentoul, G. S.
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.Hennessy, Major J. R. G.Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Brass, Captain W.Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Rye, F. G.
Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)Sandeman, A. Stewart
Bullock, Captain M.Holt, Capt. H. P.Sandon, Lord
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir AlanHuman. C. W. J.Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Burman, J. B.Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Butler, Sir GeoffreyHopkins, J. W. W.Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Cadogan, Major Hon. EdwardHorlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.Sinclair Col. T.(Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Campbell. E. T.Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.Smith. R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Cautley, Sir Henry S.Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)Huntingfield, LordSomerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.Hurst, Gerald B.Spender Clay. Colonel H.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Sprot, Sir Alexander
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.)
Chapman, Sir S.Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)Stanley. Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Cobb, Sir CyrilJacob, A. E.Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Cochrane. Commander Hon. A. D.Lamb, J. O.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Cooper, A. DuffLane-Fox, Colonel George R.Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Cope. Major WilliamLister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipThompson. Luke (Sunderland)
Coupor, J. B.Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryLooker, Herbert WilliamTurton, Edmond Russborough
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)Lougher, L.Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Cunliffe, Joseph HerbertLowe, Sir Francis WilliamWallace, Captain O. E.
Dalkeith, Earl ofLumley, L. R.Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)MacAndrew, Charles GlenWarner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)McDonnell, Colonel Hon. AngusWatts, Dr. T.
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)McLean, Major A.Wells, S. R.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)Macnaghten, Hon. Sir MalcolmWhite, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Dixey, A. C.McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald JohnWilliams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Drewe, C.MacRobert, Alexander M.Wilson. Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Elliot, Captain Walter E.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Wilson. M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)
Elveden, ViscountMakins, Brigadier-General E.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)Malone, Major P. B.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Everard, W. LindsayManningham-Buller, Sir MervynWise, Sir Fredric
Fairfax, Captain J. G.Margesson, Captain D.Wolmer, Viscount
Falle, Sir Bertram G.Marriott, Sir J. A. R.Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)
Fleming, D. P.Meller, R. J.Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.Mitchell, S. (Lanark)Worthington Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Frece, Sir Walter deMonsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Ganzoni, Sir JohnMoore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Gates, PercyMoreing, Captain A. H.Major Sir Harry Barnston and
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew HamiltonMorrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)Captain Viscount Curzon.
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamMorrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

I beg to move, in page 18, line 6, at the end, to insert the words or the age not exceeding sixteen up to which the child remains under full-time instruction in a day school. I move this Amendment on behalf of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Ken-worthy), and I rather gather the Amendment, which was accepted yesterday, will make this a natural sequel, because, obviously, if you are going to recognise the widows in one case, if they have children at school, by a special concession, then in this particular case it should be recognised also. It is obvious that the temptation to a woman to send her child out to work, when she is the sole bread-winner, must be very great, and it is to the interest of the State, where it is suitable that the child should continue its education, that every inducement should be held out to the mother, when she is a widow, to keep her child at school. I do hope, therefore, the Minister can see his way to accept the Amendment, because it would be a very generous concession to education, it would be much appreciated by the people concerned, and would be a move in the; right direction, recognising the principle that it is desirable that, where possible, children should stay at school up to the age of 16.

Photo of Sir Douglas Hogg Sir Douglas Hogg , St Marylebone

This, again, I am sorry to say, is an Amendment the Government are not able to accept. The concession to which the hon. Member referred, presumably, was one that was made some days ago on Clause 1, when the Government agreed that it' a child remained at school until 16, the additional allowance should be paid in respect of that child during the extra two years at which it stayed at school. That provision is still intended to be continued, and is continued, by the opening words of Clause 18, which gives the pension in the like circumstances and under the like conditions as if the husband, father, or mother, as the case may be, had died immediately after the commencement of this Act." But the addition of the words which the hon. Gentleman has moved would involve, not merely an additional allowance to be paid, as it will be by virtue of Clause 1, but if there were, for example, a widow who had no children under 14, but had children at school, she would come in for her widow's pension, although not under the present qualification: It is obvious that that is not intended by the Government, and to make it quite clear that it is not intended, an Amendment at the end of paragraph (d) will be moved by my right hon. Friend in a few minutes to make it clear that is not the intention of the Clause. Our intention is that the widow's pension shall cease when the child is 14, and that the widow shall be qualified for this pension only if she has a child under 14 if she is qualified at the statutory date, and, if qualified, she will go on drawing full allowance in the same way as any other widow, but she will not become qualified merely by the fact that the child remains at school.

Photo of Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence , Leicester West

I hope very much the Government will reconsider this point. It is rather difficult to follow the exact difference between what has been proposed and what the Government say is, as a matter of fact, in the Bill. If I understand the Attorney-General rightly, the difference between the two concerns only an exceedingly small number of people. It is those widows who, in the present circumstances, have managed to keep their child or children at school after the age of 14. They have no children under 14 at the present time, but they have one or two children over 14 which, with great heroism, they have managed to keep at school, in spite of the fact that they get no pension at the present time. It is that exceedingly small class, if I understand it rightly, that the Government propose to exclude from the benefits of this Clause and I am quite sure I shall carry the Committee with me in my feeling that this is a quite unnecessary restriction. I say it is unnecessary, because the number of widows who at the present time have children over 14 at school must be exceedingly small, and to enable those women to get a children's allowance for the brief remainder of the term until they reach the age of 16 could only involve an exceedingly small addition to the expense of the Act. I think if there are any women who deserve praise and help, it is those heroic widows who, without any pension, have struggled to keep their children over 14 at school, and I do hope that, in this exceedingly small number of cases the Government will see their way to make this additional allowance.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 123; Noes, 251.

Division No. 273.]AYES.[5.11 p.m.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Hardie, George D.Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Harney, E. A.Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonRobinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Attlee, Clement RichardHayday, ArthurRose, Frank H.
Baker, WalterHenderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Salter, Or. Alfred
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Scrymgeour, E.
Barnes, A.Hirst, G. H.Sexton, James
Barr, J.Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Batey, JosephHore-Belisha, LeslieShort, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Broad, F. A.Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bromley, J.Hutchison. Sir Robert (Montrose)Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Buchanan, G.John, William (Rhondda, West)Smith, Rennle (Penistone)
Charleton, H. C.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Snell, Harry
Clowes, S.Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Cluse, W. S.Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Stamford, T. W.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.Kelly, W. T.Stephen. Campbell
Compton, JosephKennedy, A. R. (Preston)Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Connolly, M.Kenyon, BarnetThomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Cove, W. G.Kirkwood, D.Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Lawson, John JamesThorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Dalton, HughLee, F.Tinker. John Joseph
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Lindley, F. W.Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Day, Colonel HarryLowth, T.Viant, S. P.
Dennison, R.Lunn, WilliamWallhead, Richard C.
Dunnico, H.MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Warne, G. H.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)Mackinder, W.Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)March, S.Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
England, Colonel A.Maxton, JamesWebb. Rt. Hon. Sidney
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Montague, FrederickWedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Gibbins, JosephMorris, B. H.Westwood, J.
Gillett, George M.Morrison, R. C, (Tottenham, N.)Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Gosling, HarryNaylor, T. E.Whiteley, W.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)Oliver, George HaroldWiggins. William Martin
Greenall, T.Owen, Major G.Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Wilson C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Groves, T.Ponsonby, ArthurWilson R. J (Jarrow)
Grundy, T. W.Potts, John S.Windser, Walter
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)Rees, Sir BeddoeYoung, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr, Tydvil)Ritson, J.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)Mr. Percy Harris and Mr.
Trevelyan Thomson.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelBrooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.Broun, Lindsay. Major H.Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Albery, Irving JamesBrown, Maj. D.C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Curzon, Captain Viscount
Allen, J, Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William JamesDalkeith, Earl of
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.Bullock, Captain M.Davidson, J.(Kertt'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir AlanDavies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.Surman, J. B.Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)
Astor, ViscountessButler, Sir GeoffreyDavies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyCadogan, Major Hon. EdwardDawson, Sir Philip
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Campbell, E. T.Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Balniel, LordCautley, Sir Henry S.Dixey, A C.
Banks, Reginald MitchellCayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)Doyle, Sir N. Grattan
Barnston, Major Sir HarryCazalet, Captain Victor A.Drewe, C.
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)Edmondson Major A. J.
Beckett. Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)Chapman, Sir S.Elliot, Captain Walter E.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Elveden, viscount
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)Christie, J. A.Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Bennett, A. J.Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerEvans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Berry, Sir GeorgeClayton, G. C.Everard, W. Lindsay
Blades. Sir George RowlandCobb, Sir CyrilFairfax, Captain J. G.
Blundell, F. N.Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Boothby, R. J. G.Cooper, A. DuffFermoy, Lord
Bourne, Captain Robert CroftCope, Major WilliamFleming, D, P,
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.Couper, J. B.Ford, P. J.
Brass, Captain W.Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Briggs, J. HaroldCraig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Foster, Sir Harry S.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryFrece, Sir Walter de
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Lamb, J. O.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Ganzoni, Sir JohnLane-Fox, Colonel George R.Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Gates, PercyLister, Cunliffe., Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipSalmon, Major I.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew HamiltonLocker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)Samuel, A M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamLoder, J. de V.Sandeman, A. Stewart
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnLooker, Herbert WilliamSandon, Lord
Goff, Sir ParkLougher, L.Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Gower, Sir RobertLowe, Sir Francis WilliamShaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Grace, JohnLuce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanSimms, Or. John M. (Co. Down)
Greene, W. P. CrawfordLumley, L. R.Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E.)Mac Andrew, Charles GlenSkelton, A. N.
Gretton, Colonel JohnMacdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Slaney, Major p. Kenyon
Grotrian, H. BrentMcDonnell, Colonel Hon. AngusSmith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.McLean, Major A.Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Gunston, Captain D. W.Macnaghten, Hon. Sir MalcolmSmithers, Waldron
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald JohnSomerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne)MacRobert, Alexander M.Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Sprot, Sir Alexander
Hammersley, S. S.Makins, Brigadier-General E.Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Hanbury, C.Malone, Major P. B.Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'cland)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph HenryManningham-Buller, Sir MervynSteel, Major Samuel Strang
Harland, A.Margesson, Capt. D.Storry Deans, R.
Harrison, G. J. C.Marriott, Sir J. A. R.Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Hartington, Marquess ofMelier, R. J.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)Merriman, F. B.Styles, Captain H. Walter
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)Meyer, Sir FrankSueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Haslam, Henry C.Milne. J. S. Wardlaw-Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Hawke, John AnthonyMitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxl'd, Henley)Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)Thompson Luke (Sunderland)
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)Moore, Sir Newton J.Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.Turton, Edmund Russborough
Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.Moreing, Captain A. H.Vaughan-Morgan, Col K. P.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)Waddington R.
Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveWallace, Captain D. E.
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Murchison, C. K.Ward, Lt. Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Holt. Capt. H. P.Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir HerbertWaterhouse, Captain Charles
Homan, C. W. J.Nuttall, EllisWatts, Dr. T.
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)Oakley, T.Wells, S. R.
Hopkins, J. W. W.Ormsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamWheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster Mossley)Pennefather, Sir JohnWhite, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.Penny, Frederick GeorgeWilliams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n)Pielou, D. P.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Hume-Williams, Sir W. EllisPilditch, Sir PhilipWinterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Huntingfield, LordPownall, Lieut.-Colonel AsshetonWise, Sir Fredric
Hurst, Gerald B.Preston, William
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n &P'bl's)Price, Major C. W. M.Wolmer, Viscount
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Raine, W.Womersley, W. J.
Jackson, Lieut.-colonel Hon. F. S.Rawlinson, Rt.. Hon. John Fredk. PeelWood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)Rawson, Alfred CooperWood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Jacob, A. E.Rentoul, G. S.Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. CuthbertRhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementRopner, Major L.Major Hennessy and Mr. F. C.
Thomson.

Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN:

I beg to move, in page 18, line 8, to leave out the word "six," and to insert instead thereof the word "twelve."

I do not think it necessary to say much in regard to this Amendment, except to point out that the cost, apparently, would nor amount to very much. Having already in the course of the previous Debates on this Measure decided on the question of the desirability of bringing widows and orphans into this scheme, I think it would be only gracious on our part to extend this period to 12 months. The period of six months is too short. Under the present provision, in six months after the child becomes 14 years of age, the widow ceases to have these allowances. I am not going to describe the circumstances, because they are well known, and I will only say that if a period of 12 months' grace were allowed, and if the payments were continued for 12 months instead of six months after the child has reached 14 years of age, it would be a very important matter indeed to the widows concerned. I therefore appeal to the Minister to accept this proposal.

Photo of Sir Douglas Hogg Sir Douglas Hogg , St Marylebone

The hon. and gallant Member has moved his Amendment in a speech of exceptional and praiseworthy brevity, and I shall endeavour to follow his example. We all agree that a reasonable time should be allowed after the child has reached the maximum statutory age of 14 years, in which the widow can find employment and adapt herself to the new conditions. The only question is: What period constitutes a reasonable time? The Government take the view that in six months the widow would have time to consider her position and adapt herself to the new circumstances. Whatever figure one takes, people will say that it should be. more, or that it should be less. We consider the figure of six months as reasonable.

Photo of Mr Robert Young Mr Robert Young , Newton

We are disappointed to hear the Attorney-General's statement. I do not think anyone would wish to reduce the period, and we think it ought to be extended. The widow's position in this matter is a very unfortunate one. The child has been going to school up to the age of 14, and it depends on circumstances whether it will be possible within six months' time, to find work for the child after leaving school. In the circumstances which are operating now, and which may be operating in the future, it will be very difficult to do so. It is just at that period also that large additional expense is imposed on the widow. The child on leaving school has to put aside school clothing, and requires a new outfit to go to work, and to ask the widow to meet those expenses out of the wage paid to the child for the first six months' work is a great hardship. I think the Minister recognises that the Amendment would not impose a greatly increased charge on the scheme. At all events, I would like to know what the Minister estimates the cost of this proposal to be. It would be a gracious thing on our part to recognise our responsibility, not only to the widow but to the child, by extending this period to 12 months.

Photo of Mr Leslie Hore-Belisha Mr Leslie Hore-Belisha , Plymouth, Devonport

I wish to adhere to the example of brevity set by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Mover of the Amendment. I ask the Minister to consider the great and sudden change in the household income which will take place in these, cases. The household may have been drawing an income of 18s. to 20s. per week, and that may be changed to nothing at all within six months. In the present condition of the employment market that is going to place the mother of a family in a difficult position, if she is to keep the home together. The Amendment asks for very little. I would like to see a widow in these circumstances placed in as fortunate a position as the widow who comes in it a later date, and being enabled to draw her pension for the rest of her life. The women whom the Amendment seeks to benefit have already one big grievance, and it is not right that they should be so suddenly deprived of the income which they are to receive under this provision. A period of 12 months is not too long to allow7 a widow in which to readjust her circumstances to the new position. She may desire to keep the children at school out of her own pocket, and we are giving her no encouragement to do so. At any rate she will desire to give them proper sustenance, and it is asking very little to ask for an extension of the period within which she can look round for the employment which she and the children have to find and which they ought not to have to find.

Photo of Mr George Buchanan Mr George Buchanan , Glasgow Gorbals

I wish to raise a point which may only concern Scotland, but which seems to have some importance in this connection. It seems to be generally assumed that the child will leave school on reaching the age of 14, and that the widow will have six months clear after that period in which to seek work for the boy or girl concerned. In Scotland, however, a child docs not leave school just when he or she has reached the age of 14. Very often a child is 14 years and four or five months before leaving school, because there are fixed school leaving dates in Scotland. In Glasgow I know one date is in May or June, and the next is in November. If a child is a few weeks under the age of 14 at one of these dates, he or she must remain at school until the second date comes round, and in many cases, as I say, a child may be several months over 14 before leaving school. In such cases the parent has not six months after the child leaving school; she has in reality only the period between the date of leaving school and the expiration of the six months' period after the child has reached the age of 14. I do not know if the English practice as to school leaving is the same, but I am sure the concession of 12 months in all the circumstances would not be too much.

Photo of Mr Thomas Davies Mr Thomas Davies , Cirencester and Tewkesbury

I should like to support the hon. Member who has just spoken. The custom in England is the same—that is to say, when the child has reached the age of 14, it can. only leave school at the end of the school term following the 14th birthday, and it is possible for a child to be 14 years and four months before leaving school. In such a case the parent would only get a period of grace of two months after the child had left school. Possibly the Government cannot accept the suggestion to extend the period to 12 months, but I think they ought to make this concession —that the parent should have the allowance continued for six months after the date on which the child leaves school, that being the end of the school term following the child's 14th birthday. That would go a long way to meet the Mover of the Amendment, and if a proposal of that kind were put forward, I would be only too pleased to support it. At present you are penalising the parents by only giving two or three months' grace, because most children have to go for several months beyond the age of 14 before they can leave school.

Photo of Mr Rhys Davies Mr Rhys Davies , Westhoughton

I always understood that the definite intention in this matter was to provide that the widow should receive pension and allowances for six months after the child left school-Now it transpires that although that was the intention, the allowance will actually stop six months after the child has reached 14 years of age. Let me put a concrete case. A child reaches the age of 14 in the middle of January, and, according to the Regulations of the Board of Education, is not allowed to leave school until the end of the school term in June. That child for all practical purposes will be aged 14 years and six months when it leaves school, and, just at the point when the child leaves school, the allowances and pensions payable to the mother are automatically stopped. The Minister should be able to find some means of providing that, instead of stopping the pension and allowances six months after the child's fourteenth birthday, the period should be fixed at six months after the child has left school. That would meet the point of the Amendment in some degree. At the same time I think the Amendment, if carried, would cover all cases in the way we desire.

Photo of Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence , Leicester West

There was one remark that fell from the Attorney-General, of the significance of which I was not quite clear. In the begining of his speech he said that this expiration of six months would be from the date that the child was 14. [Interruption.] I understand that when he made that remark he was anticipating the Amendment that his right hon. Friend was going to move, and I shall make my remarks when that opportunity arises.

Photo of Mr Herbert Fisher Mr Herbert Fisher , Combined English Universities

I hope the Minister will reconsider this provision. It appears to me that it must have been drafted under the assumption that the school age ceased at 14 for every child, but, as has already been pointed out, under the provisions of the Education Act, 1921, the child leaves school at the end of the term within which he or she has reached his or her fourteenth year. Parents entertain a very widespread objection to that particular provision of the Act. They say it acts unequally as between child and child, and the reason why that provision was inserted, first of all in the Education Act, 1918, and then in the Consolidating Act of 1921, was that on all sides we heard from the teaching profession that it was quite impossible to organise the education of the children in the upper standards of school if they were leaving all through the term, and that it was very important from an educational point of view that children should leave only at the end of a term.

That is the reason for the provision. Now I think that, if the Minister adheres to the provision in the form in which it now appears, that grievance will still continue. On the other hand, assuming that he accepts the suggestion which has been thrown out that the widow should continue in possession of the allowance until six months after her child has left school, that, I think, would do a great deal to remedy what is at present a sense of grievance. It would afford the widow a sufficient interval within which to adjust herself to her new position, and would altogether be a more equitable provision than that which appears on the face of the Bill.

Photo of Sir Annesley Somerville Sir Annesley Somerville , Windsor

I wish to say a word in support of the suggestion of the hon. Member for Cirencester (Sir T. Davies), which has been supported by the right hon. Member for the English Universities (Mr. Fisher). There has been a great deal of discontent among parents because of the recent provision that children should stay at school until the end of the term in which they are fourteen, and that discontent will revive if the Minister does not accept the proposal that has been made to him. I think probably the intention of the Minister was that there should be six months clear after the child leaves school, and I hope he will grant that concession.

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Aberavon

I want to try to see exactly where we are in this matter. Clause 18 relates to widows who are not insured, but for Clause 18 itself, a certain category of widows and orphans whose husbands or parents died before the commencement of the Act. It is a wasting category. Every month that passes means that the category gets smaller and smaller. The child of the insured widow and the orphan who comes under the general provisions of this Bill is going to receive benefit up to 16 if he attends a day school, but, so far as this special category is concerned, the orphan will not receive any benefit beyond the age of 14, though the parent gets her pension for six months after that. That is where the Attorney-General's statement has led me into a little bit of confusion perhaps. The whole point at issue is that this specially pensioned widow should be treated, as regards her child who is at school after the age of 14, in the same way, at any rate while he is at school, as the widow under Clause 1, and that the orphan should be treated in the same way as the orphan dealt with in Clause 1, and I would appeal to the Government to take that matter into further consideration.

I only make one observation. There is this point that has not been made, I think. As soon as this Bill comes into operation, how unfair it will be if you get a number of children at school whose parents died when they were complete beneficiaries under this Bill and a number of children whose parents died before being complete beneficiaries under the Bill. They will be placed in a substantially different position, and as it is a wasting cost, why should you not put them all in? Those of us who are very much in that position ourselves know what it means to people who are scraping and saving and striving to give their children a continued education, and this would be a tremendously good benefit for them. I think the Amendment should be accepted, if it cost, say, £2,000, especially when it is not a continuing annual charge.

Photo of Mr Neville Chamberlain Mr Neville Chamberlain , Birmingham, Ladywood

The right hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Mac-Donald) says he desires to know where we are, and I am not surprised at his expression of that desire, because what we have been doing is to discuss a number of proposals which are not contained in the Amendment we are supposed to be discussing. If I may repeat for a moment what the right hon. Gentleman described as the whole point at issue in this discussion, it was this: He said that the children of those who come under Clause 1 of the Bill will have allowances paid in respect of them up to the age of 16 if they remain at school during that period, and he said that under this proposal the children of widows whose husbands died before the Act will have their allowances stopped at the age of 14. That is a misapprehension on the part of the right hon. Gentleman. If he will look at the beginning of the Clause, he will see that a widow's pensions shall be payable to the widow of a man who died before the commencement of this Bill, in the like circumstances and under the like conditions as if be had died after the commencement of the Act. The effect of that, therefore, is that precisely the same provision applies to the children of widows or to orphans, so far as connection between allowances and time at school is concerned, in this Clause as we have already provided in Clause 1. So much for that point and that meets the point made out by various hon. and right hon. Members opposite about the difference between the age of 14 and the actual time of leaving school. If they remain at school a few month longer after they have reached the age of 14, allowances are continued just the same under the alteration that has been made in Clause 1.

The real Amendment, we are discussing is with regard to the period after the allowances have ceased, during which the widow shall continue to receive her own pension, that is, the widow whose husband never made any contribution under the scheme, and the difference between the case of a widow with dependant children whose husband died before the Bill operates and a widow whose husband died after is that, in the case of the latter, the widow has the pension for the rest of her life, unless she remarries. The point of the Amendment is that that pension should be continued six months after the child has ceased to receive an allowance, that is to say, that if the child were to remain at school for another two years till the age of 16, and thereby drew allowances for himself, the widow's pension should also be prolonged by the same period of two years That means that in the case of the children who remained at school under Clause 1 the widow would get an allowance of 5s. in the case of the eldest child and 3s. in the case of any other child for another two years, but in the case of the widow of the man who died before the Act, she would get an additional allowance of 15s., namely, 10s. for herself and 5s. for the child, for that period of two years, so that we should not be putting the two eases on a par. We should be giving a far more substantial bonus, if I may put it that way, to the widow of the man who died before the Bill comes into operation, and who did not contribute under the Bill, than we are giving to the widow of the man who has paid his contributions. That does not seem to us to be right, quite apart from the financial consideration, and. therefore, while we are giving this extra allowance in the case of children who are kept at school, we are not also giving extra pension to the mothers of those children.

There only remains the question of the actual extension of the widows' pensions, whether it should be six or 12 months. That is one of those considerations which we really have to take into account. The hon. Member asked what would be the extra cost of prolonging this widow's pension from six months to 12 months. I am advised that it would be £600,000 in the first 10 years, and I have not got that margin. The right hon. Member for Aberavon said it is not a permanent thing. It rises, and then falls. I have made a number of concessions in the course of the Committee stage of the Bill, and they have exhausted any possibility of my accepting an Amendment of this kind. Hon. Members cannot have everything. They have to make a choice, and while, personally, I should be glad to see this period prolonged, I am debarred from prolonging it simply by the fact that we have not got the money available.

Photo of Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence , Leicester West

May I put the position to the Minister in this way: The insured person gets the benefit of the child allowance up to the age of 16 if the child remains at school, and the mother also gets the pension all her life. That is in the case of an insured person. This Clause deals with the case of the person who is not insured, the case of the husband already dead before the Bill comes into operation. There are three separate types of people to consider. There is the case of the children under 14. They are in the Bill already. There is a child allowance there, and the mother is given the 10s. during that period and for six months afterwards. That is in the Bill. By the alteration that has been made the insured persons' child allowance is continued after the age of 14 and up to the age of 16 if the child remains at school; this in the case of those children who are under 14 after the Act commences. By the Amendment defeated a little while back that extension is not further extended in the case of the children already over 14 and who are still at school; the Minister has refused to extend the provision to that case. What we are considering in this Amendment, and in the Amendment to follow by the Minister, is the case of the woman whose children are under 14 when the Bill comes into force, who thereupon draws her own pension of 10s., and draws, in addition, the child allowance up to 14 if the children are at school. The question then comes as to what happens to that other child who leaves at 14. In this ease the child allowance will be continued up to the age of 16 if the child remains at school; but the right hon. Gentleman proposes not to allow the mother's own 10s. for the same period.

If the proposal of the Minister is carried into effect you will have the child of 13 to-day entitled to the child allowance of 5s. and the mother entitled to the mother's pension of 10s.; that con- tinues until six months after the child reaches 14. If the child is then at school, and continues at school, the child's allowance will still continue to be paid, but the mother's pension of 10s. will stop. Therefore, these widows who are keeping the children at school will get the child allowance of 5s. but cease to draw their own pension of 10s. The Minister defends that by saying that otherwise these widows would get 15s. more than they would if he had not made the provision about keeping the children at school. I suggest to him that it is perfectly right that they should be getting 15s. more, because if a widow is keeping her child at school, and thereby foregoing the earnings of the child, 5s, per week is utterly inadequate for the purpose. That is the whole position of the Bill. The whole object of the Bill is to pay the widow of young children not merely the child allowance but the child allowance plus the pension of the widow herself, because, unless we do that the amount in this Bill not merely is inadequate but utterly contemptible.

No one can imagine that a widow can possibly look after one or two children

merely on the child allowance. Therefore, I do put it to the Minister that unless he can give the mother herself 10s. it is practically useless for him to give this allowance for the children, because the widow with one child cannot afford to keep that child on merely the child allowance. She can only do so if she gets 10s. for herself as well. As a matter of fact, there is this tremendous difference between the insured widow and the uninsured widow who comes in under this Clause: in the one case this allowance of pensions for women is given for the whole of their lives, and in the other case they cannot, in any case, get them for more than two years. I do put it to the Minister, if the advantage to the widow of the child allowance is to be any use to her at all, that he should meet us by extending also the allowance for the woman. I would ask him not to move the Amendment following this one as it stands in his name, because, in that case, we are not really enabling the widow to keep her children at school.

Question put, "That the word 'six' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes. 261; Noes, 130.

Division No. 274.]AYES[5.55 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelBurman, J. B.Doyle, Sir N. Grattan
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.Drewe, C
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)Butler, Sir GeoffreyEdmonson, Major A. J.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, w. Derby)Cadogan, Major Hon. EdwardElliot, Captain Walter E.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Caine, Gordon HallElveden, Viscount
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.Campbell, E. T.England, Colonel A.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.Cautley. Sir Henry S.Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)
Astor, ViscountessCayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)Everard, W. Lindsay
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyCayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Cazalet, Captain Victor A.Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Balniel, LordCecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)Fermoy, Lord
Banks, Reginald MitchellChadwick, Sir Robert BurtonFielden, E. B.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)Fleming, D. P.
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Chapman, Sir SFord, P. J.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.Christie, J. A.Foster, Sir Harry S.
Benn, sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)Clarry, Reginald GeorgeFremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis F.
Bennett, A. J.Clayton, G. C.Galbraith, J. F. w.
Berry, Sir GeorgeCobb, Sir CyrilGanzoni, Sir John
Bethell, A.Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Gates, Percy
Birchall, Major J. DearmanCooper, A. DuffGault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Blades, Sir George RowlandCope. Major WilliamGibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Blundell, F. N.Couper, J. B.Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John
Boothby, R. J. G.Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.Goff, Sir Park
Bourne, Captain Robert CroftCraig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Gower, sir Robert
Bowyer, Captain G. E. WCralk, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryGrace, John
Brass, Captain W.Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)Greene, W. P. Crawford
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveCrookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E)
Briggs, J. HaroldCunliffe. Joseph HerbertGretton, Colonel John
Brocklebank. C. E. R.Curzon, Captain ViscountGrotrian, H. Brent
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.Dalkeith, Earl ofGunston, Captain D. W.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)Hall, Cast. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William JamesDawson, Sir PhilipHammersley, S. S.
Bullock, Captain M.Dean, Arthur WellesleyHanbury. C.
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir AlanDixey, A. C.Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Harland, A.Macnaghten, Hon. Sir MalcolmSavery, S. S.
Harrison, G. J. C.McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald JohnShaw, Lt. Col. A. D. Mol. (Renfrew, W.)
Hartington, Marquess ofMacRobert, Alexander M.Shaw, Capt, W. W. (Wilts, Westh'y)
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)Makins, Brigadler-General E.Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)
Haslam, Henry C.Malone, Major P. B.Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Hawke, John AnthonyMargesson, Captain D.Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M..Marriott, Sir I. A. R.Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Meller, R. J.Smithers Waldron
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)Merriman, F. B.Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.Meyer, Sir Frank.Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-Sprot, Sir Alexander
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)Mitchell, S. (Lanark)Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardMoore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)Storry Deans, R.
Holl, Capt. H. P.Moreing, Captain A. H.Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Homan, C. W. J.Morrison, H. (Wills, Salisbury)Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveSueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Hopkins, J. W. W.Murchison, C. K.Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Sykes, Major-Gen, Sir Frederick H.
Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir HerbertThompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Nuttall, EllisThomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)Oakley, T.Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Huntingfield, LordOrsmby-Gore, Hon. WilliamTurton, Edmund Russborough
Hurst, Gerald B.Pennefather, Sir JohnVaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Penny, Frederick GeorgeWaddington, R.
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)Wallace, Captain D. E.
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)Ward, Lt. Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)Phillpson, MabelWarner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Jacob, A. E.Pielou, D. P.Waterhouse, Captain Charles
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. CuthbertPilcher, G.Watts, Dr. T.
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)Pilditch, Sir PhilipWells, S. R.
Kindersley, Major G. M.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel AsshetonWheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
King, Captain Henry DouglasPreston, WilliamWhite, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementPrice, Major C. W. M.Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Lamb, J. O.Raine, W.Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Lane-Fox, Colonel George R.Rawilnson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk, PeelWilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipRees, Sir BeddoeWilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)Rentoul, G. S.Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Loder, J. de V.Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Looker, Herbert WilliamRoberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Lougher, L.Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)Wise, Sir Fredric
Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamRopner, Major L.Wolmer, Viscount
Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanRuggles-Brise, Major E. A.Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)
Lumley, L. R.Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Macandrew, Charles GlenSamuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Sandeman, A. Stewart
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. AugusSandon, LordTELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mclean, Major A.Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.Major Sir Harry Barnston and
Major Hennessy.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.John, William (Rhondda, West)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Ammon, Charles GeorgeGibbins, JosephJones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Attlee, Clement RichardGillett, George M.Kelly, W. T.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)Gosling, HarryKennedy, T.
Baker, WalterGraham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)Kirkwood, D.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)Greenall, T.Lawson, John James
Barr, J.Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)Lee, F.
Batey, JosephGrenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Lindley, F. W.
Broad, F. A.Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Livingstone, A. M.
Bromley, J.Groves, T.Lowth, T.
Buchanan, G.Grundy, T. W.Lunn, William
Charieton, H. C.Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)
Clowes, S.Hall, Fredik, (Yorks, Normanton)Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Cluse, W. S.Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Mackinder, W.
Clynes, Right Hon. John R.Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Compton, JosephHardie, George D.March, S.
Connolly, M.Harney, E. A.Maxton, James
Cove, W. G.Harris, Percy A.Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonMontague, Frederick
Dalton, HughHastings, Sir PatrickMorris, R. H.
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)Hayday, ArthurMorrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Naylor, T. E.
Day, Colonel HarryHenderson, T. (Glasgow)Oliver, George Harold
Dennison, R.Hirst, G. H.Owen, Major G.
Duncan, C.Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Dunnico, H.Hore-Belisha, LesliePethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bdewellty)Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Ponsonby, Arthur
Potts, John S.Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)Wallhead, Richard C.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Ritson, J.Snell, HarryWatts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)Snowden, Rt. Hon. PhilipWebb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)Stamford, T. W.Westwood, J.
Robinson, W, C, (Yorks, W. R., Elland)Stephen, CampbellWheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Rose, Frank H.Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)Whiteley, W.
Saklatvala, ShapurjiThomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Scrymgeour, E.Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)Williams. David (Swansea, East)
Sexton, JamesThorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Shiels, Dr. DrummondThurtle, E.Windsor, Walter
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)Tinker, John JosephYoung, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)Trovelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Sitch, Charles, H.Viant, S. P.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Warne and Mr. A. Barnes.

Photo of Mr Neville Chamberlain Mr Neville Chamberlain , Birmingham, Ladywood

I beg to move, in page 18, line 10, at the end, to insert the words or on which the youngest child attains the age of fourteen, whichever is the earlier.

This Amendment was discussed on the last Amendment, and therefore I will content myself with formally moving it.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 271; Noes, 131.

Division No. 275.]AYES.[6.3 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelChristie, J. A.Grace, John
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.Clarry, Reginald GeorgeGreene, W. P. Crawford
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)Clayton, G. C.Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H.(W'th's'w, E.)
Alexander, Sir Wm, (Glasgow, Cent'l)Cobb, Sir CyrilGretton, Colonel John
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W, Derby)Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Grotrian, H. Brent
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Cooper, A. DuffGunston, Captain D. W.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.Couper, J. B.Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.Hall, Vice-Admiral Sir R. (Eastbourne)
Astor, ViscountessCraig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Hall. Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyCraik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryHammersley, S. S.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Balniel, LordCrookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)Harland, A.
Banks, Reginald MitchellCrookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Harrison, G. J. C.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Cunliffe, Joseph HerbertHartington, Marquess of
Barnston, Major Sir HarryCurzon, Captain ViscountHarvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Dalkeith, Earl ofHarvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, NDavidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)Heslam, Henry C.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.Hawke, John Anthony
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Berry, Sir GeorgeDavies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Bethell, A.Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)Henderson, Limit.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Birchall, Major J. DearmanDawson, Sir PhilipHeneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Blades, Sir George RowlandDean, Arthur WellesleyHennessy, Major J. R. G.
Blundell, F. N.Dixey, A. C.Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.
Boothby, R. J. G.Doyle, Sir N. GrattanHerbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Bourne, Captain Robert CroftDrewe, C.Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.Edmondson, Major A. J.Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.Elliot, Captain Walter E.Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Brass, Captain W.Elveden, ViscountHolt, Capt. H. P.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveEngland, Colonel A.Homan, C. W. J.
Briggs, J. HaroldEvans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Hopkins, J. W. W.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.Everard, W. LindsayHopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Fairfax, Captain J. G.Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel S. N.
Brown, Maj. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham)Falle, Sir Bertram G.Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Howard, Capt. Hon. D (Cumb., N.)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William JamesFermoy LordHudson, R. S, (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Bullock, Captain M.Fielden, E. B.Huntingfield, Lord
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir AlanFleming, D. P.Hurst, Gerald B.
Burman, J. B.Ford, P. J.Hutchison,G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D.Forestier-Walker, Sir L.Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Butler, Sir GeoffreyForrest, W.Jackson Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Cadogan, Major Hon. EdwardFoster, Sir Harry S.Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Caine, Gordon HallFoxcroft, Captain C. T.Jacob, A. E.
Campbell, E. T.Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Cautley, Sir Henry S.Galbraith, J. F. W.Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.)Ganzoni, Sir JohnKindersley. Major Guy M.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.Gates, PercyKing, Captain Henry Douglas
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew HamiltonKinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonGibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamLamb, J. O.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnLane-Fox, Colonel George R.
Chapman, Sir S.Goff, Sir ParkLister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Phillip
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Gower, Sir RobertLocker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Loder, J. de V.Phillpson, MabelStorry Deans, R.
Looker, Herbert WilliamPielou, D. P.Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Lougher, L.Pilcher, G.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Lows, Sir Francis WilliamPilditch, Sir PhilipSueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanPownall, Lieut.-Colonel AsshetonSugden, Sir Wilfrid
Lumley, L. R.Preston, WilliamSykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
MacAndrew, Charles GlenPrice, Major C. W. M.Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Macdonald, R, (Glasgow, Cathcart)Raine, W.Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. AngusRawilnson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk, PeelThomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
McLean, Major A.Rawson, Alfred CooperTurton, Edmund Russborough
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir MalcolmRees, Sir BeddoeVaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald JohnRentoul, G. S.Waddington, R.
MacRobert, Alexander M.Rice, Sir FrederickWallace, Captain D. E.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Roberts, Samuel (Herelord, Hereford)Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Makins, Brigadier-General E.Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.Ropner, Major L.Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Meller, R. J.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.Watts, Dr. T.
Merriman, F. B.Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Wells, S. R.
Meyer, Sir FrankSamuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-Sandeman, A. StewartWhite, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)Sandon, LordWilliams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon B. M.Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)Savery, S. S.Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Moore, Sir Newton J.Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mol. (Renfrew, W.)Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Moreing, Captain A. H.Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveSinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)Wise, Sir Fredric
Murchison, C. K.Skelton, A. N.Wolmer, Viscount
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Slaney, Major P. KenyonWomersley, W. J.
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n& Kinc'dine, C.)Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir HerbertSmith-Carington, Neville W.Wood, Rt. Hon. E.(York, W. R., Ripon)]
Nuttall, EllisSmithers, WaldronWood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Oakley, T.Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamSpender Clay, Colonel H.Wragg, Herbert
Pennefather, Sir JohnSprot, Sir Alexander
Penny, Frederick GeorgeStanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.-
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain
Margesson.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Ponsonby, Arthur
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHardie, George D.Potts, John s.
Attlee, Clement RichardHarney, E. A.Richardson, R. (Houghton-le Spring)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston)Harris, Percy A.Ritson, J.
Baker, WalterHartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonRoberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)Hastings, Sir PatrickRobertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Barnes, A.Hayday, ArthurRobinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Barr, J.Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)Rose, Frank H.
Batey, JosephHirst, G. H.Saklatvala, Shapurji
Broad, F. A.Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Scrymgeour, E.
Bromley, J.Hore-Belisha, LeslieSexton, James
Buchanan, G.Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Charleton, H. C.Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Clowes, S.John, William (Rhondda, West)Short, Alfred (Wednesday)
Cluse, W. S.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Sitch, Charles H.
Compton, JosephJones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Smith, H. S. Lees- (Keighley)
Connolly, M.Kelly, W. T.Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Cove, W. G.Kennedy, T.Snell, Harry
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Kirkwood, D.Snowden, rt. Hon. Philip
Dalton, HughLawson, John James.Stamford, T. W.
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)Lee, F.Stephen, Campbell
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Lindley, F. W.Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Day, Colonel HarryLivingstone, A. M.Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Dennison, R.Lowth, T.Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)
Duncan, C.Lunn, WilliamThorns, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Dunnico, H.MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)Thurtle, E.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.Mackinder, W.Tinker, John Joseph
Gibbins, JosephMcLean, Major A.Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Gillett, George M.March, S.Vlant, S. P.
Gosling, HarryMaxton, JamesWallhead, Richard C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir AlfredWarne, G. H.
Greenall, T.Montague, FrederickWatson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)Morris, R. H.Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Groves, T.Maylor, T. E.Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Grundy, T. W.Oliver, George HaroldWestwood, J.
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)Owen, Major G.Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Whiteley, W.Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Wiggins, William MartinWilson, R. J. (Jarrow)Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T.
Wilkinson, Ellen C.Windsor, WalterHenderson.
Williams, David (Swansea, E.)Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Mr. T. THOMSON:

I beg to move, in page 18, line 21, at the end, to add the words (f) of the above-mentioned statutory conditions (a) and (b) shall be deemed to have been complied with if it can be shown to the satisfaction of the Minister that the total income of husband and wife at the time of the death of the widow's husband (where the claim is for a widow's pension) or orphan child's father (where the claim is for an orphan's pension) did not exceed two hundred and fifty pounds per annum. We have spent considerable time in trying to remove some of the anomalies which will arise under the Clause as it stands at present, but, unfortunately, first one attempt and then another has been turned down by the Government. I submit that whatever objections they may raise to this particular Amendment it cannot be objected to on the ground of administrative difficulties, because it will make a clean cut and remove many of the anomalies which are found in the Clause at present. It provides in the case of existing widows and orphans that where the combined income does not exceed £250 a year they should be qualified for pensions. That, undoubtedly, will bring in a considerable number more than would come under the Clause as it stands, and that is the intention. The Clause as it stands is not based on the contributory system, because all who come in do so irrespective of any contributions that have been made to this particular scheme.

I submit that if we have a Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Bill we ought to bring in all the widows and orphans in existence at present. Various anomalies and injustices have been referred to, and I do not wish to waste time in repeating them, but just to make one protest against a cheeseparing policy which cuts out so many deserving cases. In our experience of the working of the Persions Warrant and of the Unemployment Insurance Act we know that anomalies continually arise, and when we are legislating afresh we ought to seek to avoid creating fresh anomalies and fresh difficulties. I submit that this Amendment, which provides a clear-cut test, gets over many of the difficulties which have been referred to this afternoon. With regard to the ques- tion of cost, these widows and orphans have to be kept at the present time, and therefore it is merely a question of transferring the burden, and whether we are to pay out of rates or the Exchequer, or out of these pensions. When rates are so high, it will only be a fair adjustment of burdens to take this responsibility off the shoulders of the local ratepayers and put it upon the shoulders of the taxpayer and upon this Bill.

Photo of Sir Kingsley Wood Sir Kingsley Wood , Woolwich West

I am afraid I must make the same answer to this suggestion as has been made to many others. There are, of course, administrative difficulties in connection with this Clause. The Minister of Health will have to be satisfied about the income limit in all these cases, which will necessitate a good many inquiries in order to elucidate the facts. But the real reason why we cannot accept this Amendment, and so bring into the scheme every kind of person one could conceivably think of, is because of the cost. The hon. Member stated that a considerable number more people would be brought within the Bill as the result of his proposal. The Minister of Health has already told the Committee that we have no margin left, and we have unfortunately exhausted all the money we allotted to this Bill On that ground, I ask the Committee to reject this Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Photo of Mr Hastings Lees-Smith Mr Hastings Lees-Smith , Keighley

There has been, I think, adequate discussion on every point that was raised in the Amendments with the exception of one, and in this case, I think, the Minister of Health will recognise that the Debate suddenly collapsed, because we had not understood the reply that was given. It is a very small point, and we should like it made clear as to whether we understand the position correctly. The point was this. We are now dealing with women whose husbands have already died, and who are widows. The Clause allows widows to have an extension of the children's allowance, if the children are at school, up to the age of 16, and that applies to this class of widows as well as those who become so in the future. I think we are right in understanding that if a widow in this class has a child now, say, of 13½ years of age or 13¾, and she sends that child to school up to the age of 16, that widow will not receive her 10s., but she will receive 5s. on behalf of the child. Is the position that if the widow who has a child of 14 years and one day without any pension or assistance and she has made sacrifices in order to send that child to school, that although that child remains at school up to the age of 16 the widow is not going to get the 5s. allowance?

I understand that is still the case. This is surely very harsh, and it will cost very little to remedy it, because the number affected will be small and of course the whole problem will pass away in two years. This class of widow is really to be reckoned among the most heroic sections of the nation, and many Members of this House are here because their mothers who were widows, and in spite of other disadvantages of life, sacrificed themselves in order to send their children to school. That seems to be the usual way to begin a great career. Here you are picking out the class who have made this sacrifice, and you are distinguishing between them and everybody else. There is no justice in it, and it cannot be argued seriously on the ground of finance, because there are so few of them. For these reasons, I would like the right hon. Gentleman to explain why he has made this differentiation, and I ask him to consider whether a smaller sum could not be added for this purpose.

Photo of Sir John Marriott Sir John Marriott , City of York

I feel constrained to interpose only two or three sentences before this Clause is added to the Bill. Having followed the discussion very closely, I cannot agree that it is the benevolence of the Government rather than the malevolence or the hard-hearted-ness of the Committee that has landed us into the unfortunate, embarrassing and humiliating position in which we find ourselves this afternoon. The majority of the Committee have been giving their votes on Amendment after Amendment this afternoon which many of us feel we shall find exceedingly difficult logically to justify. I feel that very strongly myself for a reason which may not perhaps commend itself to hon. Members opposite. The whole of Clause 18 really is in itself an excrescence on the Bill. The Clause really strikes at the root of the principle on which the whole Bill is founded, that is the principle of contribution, and that is the basic foundation of the whole Bill, Therefore, this Clause is an excrescence upon it, and once you have got away from that principle you are bound to open the door to a series of Amendments such as those we have been discussing this afternoon and of which I am afraid we may possibly hear more in the future.

It has been really impossible, so at least it has seemed to me, to find any reason or any logical line of division between the exceptions which the Government themselves have admitted in the Clause, and those which they have called upon the Committee to reject. If there is any such logic in it I have been unable to perceive it, and perhaps I may respectfully suggest to the Minister that he would to a considerable extent ease the consciences of those hon. Members on this side of the Committee who have given to him a loyal if not quite a logical support, if he would explain the principle on which he has acted both in respect of inclusion in and exclusion from this Clause.

Photo of Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence , Leicester West

I do not wish to go over the ground that has been already traversed, but I want to ask the Minister to suppose the case of a widow who, when the Act comes into operation, has two children, one under 14 and the ether over 14. The child over 14 is still at school. I understand that because this woman has one child under 14 she comes under the provisions of Clause 18, and because the other child is over 14 she will get the child's allowance on behalf of both children. If that be so, perhaps the Minister will answer the point. I think the right hon. Gentleman will see that that restricts the number of cases which he has excluded under this Bill to a very small number; in fact, it is so small that I hope his heart will melt between now and the Report stage, and that he will be able to see his way to consider this very small number of people whose educational opportunities it seems quite unnecessary not to facilitate in the way which is proposed.

Photo of Mr Neville Chamberlain Mr Neville Chamberlain , Birmingham, Ladywood

The logic of my hon. Friend the Member for York (Sir J. Marriott) is sometimes irresistible, and I must plead guilty to the accusation which he has made. This Clause is not founded upon the general principle upon which the rest of the Bill has been constructed. But if it will ease his wounded conscience, I will try and do so by pleading in the words of a well-known classical work that the Clause is only a little one. It is quite true that hon. Members have found a case which, compared with those on the border-line, seems to be unjust. Really, I do deprecate these accusations of injustice when you remember that in many cases we are making a free gift to which none of the relations of these women have paid one penny, and therefore there can be no grievance; in fact, they should be extremely grateful that they have got anything.

The only motive which has caused us to grant these benefits to those who have not paid the contributions is because we felt-that there were dependent children, and we might argue that the State has some interest in the bringing up of those children under the best possible circumstances. It was with the children in mind rather than the widows that we made these proposals, and that is why the widow's allowance comes to an end. With regard to the conundrum put to me by the hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), I have fortified my own opinion by consultation, and I am informed that the hon. Member is quite right, and the provision allows them to be paid in respect of those children.