Orders of the Day — Contributory Pensions Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 30 June 1925.

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Photo of Mr Hastings Lees-Smith Mr Hastings Lees-Smith , Keighley

The Minister of Health does not seem to me to have met the case made by the Mover of this Amendment. It must surely be clear that here is an evident injustice which is in the very heart of this Bill. Take the case which the Mover of this Amendment has in mind. A woman has been contributing for years. She marries, we will say, a blacksmith, who may be a poor man, but who, because he is not inside a workshop or factory, is not insured. She goes on working and paying contributions for years, and, taking the period before she was married, and the period during her marriage, such a woman may have paid contributions for 20 years. Then the husband dies, and she finds, in spite of all those contributions, she is left without a penny of pension either for herself or for any of her children. I say if that case cannot be met, it is an injustice that will cause heart-burning and indignation amongst hundreds of thousands of women. I follow the argument that the Minister put, and I am going to make a suggestion to deal with it. I hope when we make suggestions really for the purpose of dealing with some of these very difficult cases, the Minister will give them very careful consideration. I followed the right hon. Gentleman's reasoning. I think it was that the woman, although she has been paying contributions, has only been paying, so to speak, at half the rate of a man, and, therefore, her contributions have been sufficient to insure her for her pension at 65, but not sufficient to insure her for widows' and children's pensions.

If the Minister cannot accept, in its widest sense, the full proposal made by the mover of the Amendment, I ask him to consider the last suggestion which fell from her, namely, that some of these cases might be alleviated—though not completely met—by bringing in the assistance of voluntary insurance. When I first saw this Amendment I naturally thought that a. woman in this position would be able, if she so wished, to provide for herself and her children by means of voluntary insurance, and I think the Minister will agree that we are not necessarily making any financial demand when we ask that such a woman should be permitted to use her accumulated funds to give herself a start in voluntary insurance. But when I come to the Clause dealing with voluntary insurance, I find that if a woman—or a man—wishes to insure for the benefits of this Bill, he or she is compelled also to insure for the benefits under the National Health Insurance scheme. A woman in this position who wished to help herself by her own money, would find that she would have to pay about 1s. 1d. per week. That is to say, in order to obtain the form of insurance which she feels she needs, she is compelled to spend most of her money and has forced upon her a form of insurance which she does not want. Surely, that is a position which can be dealt with by the Minister. He will find this question coming up again and again. This method, not of overcoming but of alleviating certain difficulties will bring us back again and again to voluntary insurance, and as long as a system is maintained by which the right hon. Gentleman will not permit voluntary insurance for the purposes of this Bill alone, he will find many injustices arising.

I find furthermore in the Clause dealing with voluntary insurance that married women are forbidden to come into the voluntary insurance at all, so that even if a married woman were willing to spend 1s. 1d. per week she—almost alone among all those who come within this Bill—is refused permission to help herself in this way. If this Committee stage is to be more than a mere demonstration on both sides, if it is to be a real Committee stage in which, while not able to alter the foundations of the Bill, we may be able to make a difference to perhaps some hundreds of thousands of people by Amendments and improvements, I submit this is the kind of point to which the Minister should give consideration. The special suggestion I make is that married women should be permitted to come within voluntary insurance and, if they come within voluntary insurance, they should not be compelled to accept insurance for national health purposes as well but should be permitted to insure simply and solely for the purposes of this Bill.