Second Schedule.

Orders of the Day — Finance Bill. – in the House of Commons on 17th June 1925.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence , Leicester West

I beg to move, in page 18, line 18, column 2, to leave out "1s. 0d.," and to insert instead thereof "3d."

This is the first of a series of Amendments from this side of the Committee put forward with the object of reducing the Customs duties on silk. At this stage of the Bill it is not possible for us to ask for the abolition of these duties, but it is possible, as this Amendment proposes to do to endeavour to mitigate the harm which the Silk Duties will do by reducing the figure which stands in the Schedule to the figure which is proposed by the Amendment. I have no wish to take up a great deal of the time of the House in going over the arguments which have already been put forward in regard to the Silk Duties. I will confine myself to summing up the position very briefly.

There are two main objections which we on this side of the Committee have to the Silk Duties. The first is the injury which they will impose upon the silk consumer, and the second is the injury they will do to the trade. With regard to the consumer, I will confine myself to saying here that part of this tax and the burden of this tax falls upon the poorer people of this country, and we are utterly unable to see how the Chancellor of the Exchequer can reconcile the imposition of these taxes on the working people of this country without any concession to the workpeople in any other part of the Budget. In regard to the injury to the trade the point of view we put forward is the interference with the industry brought about by the Customs duties. Since the duty first appeared in the Budget the Chancellor of the Exchequer had met the representations of the trade to a partial extent. He has bought off the opposition of the trade by certain concessions. That, however, is only partial, because to a very large extent there is still considerable opposition in the trade to the duties proposed by the Chancellor. Even, however, so far as he has bought off the opposition of the trade, I want to remind the Committee that he has bought it off, not by taking his hand off the trade, and allowing it to expand as otherwise it would do, but by making concessions which will enable the trade to make larger profits.

In other words, he is not restoring the trade to the position which it would attain to but for his interference; he is merely enabling those concerned to make a larger profit on a smaller return, and so the equipoise for the trade, speaking for the manufacturers, is not equalled for the country, because it is the volume of trade rather than the profit made by the proprietors with which the country as a whole is concerned. It is not satisfactory from the point of view of the country as a whole that the trade should be bought off by enabling them to make a larger profit on a smaller output and on a smaller number employed. I should like to emphasise this particular question by pointing to the fact that a large amount of silk will come into this country by what may be described as legalised smuggling. It is not illegal, it is perfectly true, to introduce silk on the person. It will not be illegal for people who travel abroad to bring back a good deal with their luggage, and that form of legalised smuggling will injure the trade of this country, both wholesale and retail. While in that way it will do a great deal of harm to the country, it will not bring in any revenue to the State.

Our object in moving to reduce the amount of this tax is therefore to lessen the burden on the consumer, to lessen the interference with trade, and to reduce the incentive to this legalised smuggling which will otherwise take place. The Chancellor of the Exchequer clearly considers that as this is a growing industry he can afford to interfere with it without reducing the actual receipts for next year as against the current year. We say that the fact that it is an increasing industry is a reason for keeping his hands off it, because when unemployment is increasing it is a disastrous thing that the one industry making headway and employing larger numbers of people should be the subject of interference by the Chancellor. We all know that small boys are fond of putting their fingers into watches and other things to see how the works go, and though the consequences are sometimes very serious for the watch, they stop there. When, however, a man, no longer a boy, puts an iron bar into the moving parts of machinery, it is very likely that the injury to himself, the machinery, and other people may be very serious indeed. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer interferes with a trade which is of great benefit to the people of this country, and is likely to give wider employment if left alone, we ask him to take his hands off; and, in so far as we are not able to secure the removal of all interference, we ask that the burden should at least be reduced to the minimum.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

Whatever may be the defects of the Silk Duties I am sure the Committee will feel they would not be removed by the substitution of the scale for which the hon. Gentleman has made himself responsible for the one proposed by the Government. In the first instance, the Revenue would be entirely destroyed. £1,000,000 would be all that would remain as the result of all these duties, all the machinery, all the labour—

Captain BENN:

I thought it was going to cost nothing. I thought the right hon. Gentleman explained that no initial machinery was required.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

All the processes of collecting the duties, all the elaborate arrangements, the drawbacks, the rebates and so forth, on which the hon. and gallant Member has dwelt so long and so often—all of these must continue. The entire structure of the tax would be operative, every evil, as placed at its highest by those who oppose the duties, would still continue, but with no results, except a paltry £1,000,000—I beg the Committee's pardon, I ought not to have used such an expression, which is not a proper adjective to apply to so great a sum of money. Nothing but £1,000,000 would come into the Exchequer, and £5,000,000 of revenue would be lost by the substitution of this scale. Whatever inconvenience may be urged against the duty, whatever disadvantages there may be, whatever friction there may be—all would remain with the new scale. I can quite understand people opposing the Silk Duties, and many have done so, but it is not conceivable that anyone should be willing to acquiesce in the Silk Duties and yet wish to apply them in this very unreal manner. This proposed scale, if I were to criticise it, could be shown to be full of anomalies, and in its working would be found to be most injurious to the trades affected. The scale which is in the Schedule has been worked out after prolonged negotiations and infinite discussions with many different branches of the trade, and most of them acquiesce. The hon. Member for West Leicester (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) told us about the man putting a bar into the machine and the effects it might have; but since these duties have been announced, so far from there being any falling off in the employment or in the values of the silk trade and the branches of the silk trade, there has been an improvement in all their values. [HON. MEMBERS: "The duty is not in force yet!"] The mere anticipation has created an improvement in all their values. From every quarter I have information of new factories and new enterprises, and I am assured that the cost of artificial silk will not undergo anything but a temporary rise, and that the tax will be collected without much extra expense. I do not propose to go into these matters to-night, and events alone will show whether the course we have adopted is the correct one. I trust the Committee will adhere to the Schedule which we have worked out with the utmost labour and care. I think even those who oppose the Silk Duty will agree with me that it is much better to have a Schedule carefully worked out in conjunction with representatives of the trade, and at the same time have a Schedule which will produce a substantial return to the Exchequer.

Photo of Sir Alfred Mond Sir Alfred Mond , Carmarthen

I think it is pretty evident by this time that the more these duties are examined and discussed the more unfortunate they appear. During a recent visit which I made for political purposes to Lancashire I was unable to find even amongst the supporters of the party opposite anyone who did not condemn this tax on artificial silk. What was the universal opinion held on that subject amongst all those who understand this question?

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

That they do not object to these duties.

Photo of Sir Alfred Mond Sir Alfred Mond , Carmarthen

There is only one opinion amongst those who understand these taxes, and it is that they cannot possibly do anything but harm to the textile industry. It is like putting sand into the machine. The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave away a large part of his case to-night, forgetting that he had denied in previous Debates that what he was going to do would increase the expense of the Customs and Excise. He has opposed this Amendment to-night on the ground that the great machinery and labour which this tax involves would really not be worth while considering for £1,000,000 a year. Therefore, he admits that there will be great expense and a great labour involved in administering these taxes.

Photo of Sir Alfred Mond Sir Alfred Mond , Carmarthen

The right hon. Gentleman cannot deny that his new form of Excise taxation must inevitably increase the expenditure—

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

We are now concerned only with the Customs Duties and not with Excise.

Photo of Sir Alfred Mond Sir Alfred Mond , Carmarthen

I am grateful for your correction, Mr. Hope, but it was the right hon. Gentleman who led me on to the Excise. What he has done, if I may say so, in the Schedule which he has introduced, is to emphasise the protective nature of his Budget, to convert what was once a Free Trade balance as between Customs and Excise into a much more protective measure, which, although it may possibly suit some of those who are manufacturing artificial silk, is to the disadvantage of those who are utilising it in their industry and wish to export. I am told—I am not an expert on the matter myself—

Photo of Sir Alfred Mond Sir Alfred Mond , Carmarthen

I am told this by men who have had a life-long experience of this industry—much more experience even than the hon. Member, who is considered to know something about timber. All those, I do not care what their political party may be, who are interested in cotton or wool, will tell you with one voice that the elaborate rebate proposals put forward by the right hon. Gentleman in endeavouring to alleviate the situation will not in practice work out, and that all the attempts he has made to meet the difficulties are unsatisfactory, while the only proposal which would have been satisfactory to them has not been accepted. It is no use hon. Members burying their heads like ostriches in the sand, and not realising or admitting what is an obvious fact throughout the textile industry, namely, that there is a firm objection of a violent character against the whole of this duty, and that it will become more vocal as time goes on. I regret that at a time of great depression, when we want to expand our export trade, we should, for no really good reason, put difficulties in the way of those who are struggling, as they are to-day, in order to keep looms working in the northern districts. It is useless to contend that no result will happen; it is useless for the right hon. Gentleman to say he is taxing a rising business, that not much harm will be done. Whatever influence his duties have, they will have an influence in the wrong direction. They must have an influence economically in the wrong direction. The right hon. Gentleman must know that as well as anyone else, and I cannot understand why he has not had the courage to abandon this proposal. I am sure that if he did so it would be much more in the national interest than forcing it on the trade by the aid of a majority which is indifferent to what happens to the textile industries of this country.

Photo of Colonel Sir Joseph Nall Colonel Sir Joseph Nall , Manchester Hulme

The right hon. Gentleman takes the opportunity of this question whether the Customs Duty should be reduced to vent what he believes to be the objections of the textile areas to these duties as a whole. As a matter of fact, as the right hon. Gentleman and his friends know, not one single word of objection has been raised against the Customs Duty; so far as any objection is raised at all, it is only against the Excise Duty. That, as was pointed out recently by my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Waddington), indicates an extraordinary change of opinion in that part of the country, which, even in these days, is supposed still to retain a few reputed Free Traders. Throughout all this controversy, the objections that have been raised, and to some extent are still being raised, relate almost entirely to the Excise Duty. The right hon. Gentleman tells the Committee that during a recent visit to Lancashire he heard of these objections. As a matter of fact, he went down there and scolded Lancashire because they were not making sufficient objection.

Photo of Sir Alfred Mond Sir Alfred Mond , Carmarthen

No, what I said was that they were not making their objection sufficiently vocal to make Members of this House who do not know Lancashire conditions understand what Lancashire was thinking. Lancashire Members were not defending Lancashire interests.

Photo of Colonel Sir Joseph Nall Colonel Sir Joseph Nall , Manchester Hulme

The only unfortunate thing about that is that, in spite of the right hon. Gentleman's exhortation, Lancashire has not responded to his lead, largely realising that the sound business policy is to meet the real business point which arises in connection with this duty and make the thing workable, so that any interruption of trade which it was believed might have arisen may be avoided. The fact is that from first to last the agitation which a few Members on the other side of the House are attempting to stimulate, and are exasperated when they find they are unable to stimulate, is falling flat. Throughout the length and breadth of the cotton counties you cannot find any real volume of opinion in opposition to these duties except in those quarters which have been and apparently remain hostile to the present Government.

Photo of Mr James Hudson Mr James Hudson , Huddersfield

I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer is at last to be congratulated on having discovered in Lancashire at any rate one apparently ardent supporter of the proposals which we are now discussing. I am pretty certain, as one who also has some little connection with Lancashire, as well as Yorkshire, that the position has been very badly estimated by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. He informs us that there is no objection whatever to the import taxes. In that he has the full agreement of the hon. Member for Moss Side (Mr. Hurst). He is equally mistaken, for the facts, as I see them, are that at present the supply of artificial silk to the textile industries of Lancashire and Yorkshire cannot be met by the home industry. Courtaulds are having to ration the industry generally and the manufacturers in both Lancashire and Yorkshire, who use this material as a general mixture in the warps and otherwise, are compelled to go abroad to supply themselves with this raw material. Indeed, the first objections I got in Huddersfield were not at all with regard to Excise but with regard to the tax that is placed upon commodities imported into the country. I can assure the two hon. Members who represent Manchester Divisions that they are entirely mistaken regarding Lancashire, for I have found in the Lancashire area, in the Nelson district, that that is a similar experience to the one I have quoted with reference to Huddersfield. I have no doubt at all that when this matter comes to be put to the test—and ultimately hon. Members will have to take the test, though for the present in the by-election at Oldham they have managed to dodge the situation—the fate of the hon. Member for Moss Side at a former election, when the issues were not clouded over by pledges which have since been broken, will be repeated and a similar fate will befall the hon. and gallant Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall) as well.

Photo of Mr John Gretton Mr John Gretton , Burton

This is an Amendment to reduce the tax on raw material, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in answering the Mover of the Amendment, apparently made a statement that, if the Amendment were carried, it would leave only £1,000,000 of the tax to be collected as a result of the efforts of this House I do not think he meant that.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I never meant that. If the alternative Schedule were carried—and this Amendment is the first of a series of Amendments—the yield would be reduced to £1,000,000.

Photo of Mr John Gretton Mr John Gretton , Burton

I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has made that quite clear. I understood him in that sense, but it was not quite clear. What I should like to ask him is what would be the estimated reduction in the Customs Duty receivable if there were no tax on raw material, because a tax on raw material is a most questionable expedient. It is taxing the very grist that goes to the mill of British industry. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hops!"] There are exceptions, but I am saying it is a very questionable expedient. There were special reasons, which I explained at the time, why there should be a tax on imported hops for a period. But no one has explained why a tax on this raw material is justifiable, except that the Chancellor of the Exchequer wishes to put a tax on luxuries. There are great disadvantages, because when he once taxes raw materials, he is committing himself to the whole process of drawbacks upon every article of that character which is made out of raw material and exported from the country. I do not think this particular Amendment is a satisfactory one. I doubt if any other Amendment would be in order, as the Committee has already passed words which make it necessary to have a tax on raw material. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider that decision on Report.

As regards the general scheme of Customs duties, I would far rather take his statement than the scheme of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn), because his scheme is an effective Customs duty, while the other is to be an emasculated, ineffective and unworkable scheme.

Captain BENN:

My right hon. Friend and I have put down a scale of duties which is not emasculated, and which is merely a most defensible restoration of the Schedule. This Amendment is an Amendment put down for the purpose of raising a discussion, and is quite a separate thing.

Photo of Mr John Gretton Mr John Gretton , Burton

Other Members of the Committee may not agree with the hon. and gallant Member, but the majority in the House will probably prefer, if we are going to have a Customs Duty—and I support a Customs duty—to adopt the scale recommended by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. My purpose in rising is to ask the right hon. Gentleman what the Customs duty on raw material is worth to the Treasury? If he cannot answer that question now immediately, I hope he will be able to do so before this question is finally decided on Report. I am afraid I cannot support the Amendment moved, because it would still remain a Customs Duty and contain all the trouble of drawbacks, and so forth, and the only proper way to deal with this matter of raw material is either to have a duty worth collecting, or to do away with the duty altogether. There ought to be no duty on raw material sent into this country to supply British manufacturers except under special circumstances and where there is a strong case and considerable justification.

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

Apparently the hon. Member opposite who claims the right to speak for Lancashire, seems to think that the whole of the textile trade in that great cotton county regards this particular duty, not only with favour, but with enthusiasm. How a tax on silk waste of all kinds can be of benefit to the textile trade is beyond my understanding. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would let us into the secrets of his heart he would have to tell us that he is Very sorry to have touched these Silk Duties. We cannot regard this particular tax in its effect on only one or two particular articles.

In discussing the elaborate Schedule which we have before us now, late at night, it would be impossible to touch all the various interests that will be affected. I have taken the trouble to find out some of the articles that are likely to be affected by these Duties. Many of them are very small things in themselves, but though they are small things in themselves they are part of the trade which this country does with the whole world, and by means of which a great number of people are employed. For instance, there is silk braid. That is a small article which is exported in large quantities attached to various articles. There is silk cord. This country does not produce the silk and has to import the pure silk from abroad, but we manufacture the silk cord for the whole world. Then there is millinery wire. Silk is twisted round the wire, and this is an article which is used in millinery and in the made-up trade, and many factories in Derbyshire and the North of England are occupied in manufacturing this particular article. It would be impossible to get a drawback on these goods, Because silk braid, silk cord, silk trimming and so on do not necessarily go out in the original manufactured form but as attached to various articles.

When the Government try by an elaborate series of drawbacks to meet the various interests concerned, they find that it is impossible to make the necessary formula to deal with each case. There are articles such as silk linings which are used in ladies' millinery, ladies' coats and ladies' garments, and it would be quite impossible for the exporter to claim a drawback on them. If he tried to claim a drawback, the procedure would be so elaborate that it would not be worth the expense. In a moment of rashness, the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out that if the duties were reduced it would not be worth all the cost of the elaborate machinery that he was setting up. This will involve elaborate machinery, not only to the Customs, to the Government, to the State Department concerned, and to the Board of Trade, but to our merchants and manufacturers. It is because Lancashire, which is far-seeing and usually looks ahead, sees that these Silk Duties are going to strike a death blow at the pre- dominance of this country as the textile manufacturing centre of the world, that it is opposed to these duties, and regards them as thoroughly unsound.

11.0 P.M.

One point to which I would like to refer before it is too late to make an alteration, is that silk is being used in mixtures with cottons and woollens, not necessarily in large proportions, but very often in small proportions. I have studied this Schedule very closely, and as far as I can see it is impossible, however skilful the arrangements may be, for the shippers of cotton goods and woollen goods containing artificial silk or pure silk to get the necessary drawbacks. Every day brings more and more evidence that this particular duty is likely in the end to strike a death blow at the textile trade, and I ask the Committee to look at the matter from a non-party point of view and to vote against it.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

I take the opportunity offered by the last few minutes of this Debate to offer a little criticism of the main provisions of this proposed tax on raw materials. Whatever term the Chancellor may give to it, it is a tax on the raw material. It is a tax on a very important raw material, and as such it is bound to affect the industries which use that material. I was interested to read this morning that a meeting had been held between a representative of the Customs and Members of Parliament who are interested in the textile trade. I was also interested to find that not a single representative of the textile trade from these benches was present. I do not know whether the Chancellor thinks that we have no assistance to offer. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Hon. Members opposite may think that that is the reason, but there are Members on these benches who understand the textile trade, who may be able to give the Chancellor some assistance in avoiding some of the difficulties which he is going to fall into.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I took no part in choosing those who attended. There was a certain numbers of Members who wanted a general discussion on points on which they had some doubt, but I am sure that if hon. Gentlemen opposite have any observations of a relevant character, we should be delighted to hear them.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

If the right hon. Gentleman will take notice of what I offered in my first contribution to this Debate, we offered what small knowledge was at our disposal to prevent him from getting into some of the pitfalls into which he will fall. But, more significant still, when the Budget was first introduced, deputations from the West Hiding of Yorkshire made arrangements to meet the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I was invited by the Bradford Chamber of Commerce to go along with their deputation to meet the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the Chancellor refused to meet any Labour members along with that deputation from the Chamber of Commerce. I want to suggest that while he has the right to refuse to meet any deputation, he has no right, when he agrees to meet a deputation, to decide the personnel of that deputation. He met us with very scant courtesy, because if he had met us along with that deputation we might have put some points before him which would have guided him.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

The hon. Gentleman is a little unreasonable in his attitude. The deputation from Bradford wished to see me. Then there was a question as to whether the members of other districts adjacent should come too, and I deprecated that, as I thought that the better place for them to discuss the matter would be in the House of Commons. It was suggested that these members would come, but that they did not wish to take any part in that deputation. I did not think that that was the kind of invitation to which political opponents would wish to respond. For that reason I left it on the basis that those Members who were supporters of the Government would attend that deputation, but that we would not ask political opponents to come. It would be a very silly thing to have speeches at deputations which were merely repetitions of debates in this House.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

We are always very pleased to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer explain his case. But there is another point. In the morning he received a deputation from Yorkshire without the Members of Parliament, but in the afternoon he met the deputation from Lancashire with the Members of Parliament. That is something he might possibly be able to explain.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

In each case I deferred to the wishes of the commercial men who formed the deputation.

HON. MEMBERS:

That is not true.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

We are getting rather far away from the merits of the Amendment.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

If hon. Members do not wish to hear our points of view expressed, I cannot help it; but I challenge the right hon. Gentleman's statement that he deferred in each case to the desire of the deputation. He did not defer to the desire of the Yorkshire deputation, because, when approached and asked whether or not I would desire to speak on that deputation, I assured the gentlemen that all I desired to do was to listen to question and answer. As a result of the Chancellor's decision we were told by the Chamber of Commerce that we would not be expected to accompany the deputation. All that, however, is in the past. What I want to say now is that we are not all—shall I say—captious critics. We offer constructive criticism at times, and possibly the Chancellor may have benefited by any small knowledge that we possess. But he must take responsibility for what happened. I am rather interested in discussing the point of view that cannot be separated from the point of view of the Import Duties, and that is the question of drawback. May I make a suggestion to the Chancellor of the Exchequer? I would make an almost definite statement, though I am not the son of a prophet. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will not work a through ticket—that is, to import the yarn and ration that yarn out to the manufacturers, and know definitely before it is rationed or manufactured whether or not it will be used for export or whether it will be used for home trade. I suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the only thing he can do without dislocating trade—we know that, even if only in the smallest degree, he will dislocate trade—is to let the manufacturer pay the tax on the import at the source of issue, and let him then issue a declaration on the goods that he manufactures as to how much silk they contain. That declaration must accompany the goods from the manufacturer right through the chain of wholesalers until finally it reaches the exporting merchant. That, I think, is the easiest way. But it involves something else. It means that not only will the manufacturer have to make a declaration as to the amount of silk in the material that he makes, but he will also have to issue a declaration that there is no silk whatever in any other goods that he makes.

If the person exports goods with no silk at all, he will have to satisfy the Customs authorities that there is no silk in them. I can see they are going to be mixed up in a wholesale series of taxes. I noticed the other day it was suggested that we could put up a place for making tests. The Bradford Corporation established such a place long before the War and it cost something like £60,000. The "Daily Despatch" in Manchester has found a solution of this difficulty, but it only deals with imported yarns and does not deal—nor could anybody, except, possibly, the Chancellor—with any way of exporting the tissue. It is the greatest hurdle I have ever heard of in my life in connection with such matters. I do not say I wish the right hon. Gentleman luck. It is not luck that wins through, but knowledge and capacity, but the right hon. Gentleman is going to require all the assistance he can get. It is no use saying that Lancashire is satisfied or that Macclesfield is satisfied.

Photo of Mr John Remer Mr John Remer , Macclesfield

I do most certainly say Macclesfield is satisfied. The hon. Gentleman cannot say there is even one person in Macclesfield dissatisfied.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

I dare say we can assume from that statement that Oldham is also satisfied. Does it not appear strange, that Leek depends upon silk, Macclesfield depends upon silk, Lancashire depends upon silk, Yorkshire depends upon silk, and the only reaction comes from—

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

And I depend upon silk.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

The Chancellor is going to depend upon silk. It appears to me that we shall have to depend upon our own ingenuity to get out of the trouble into which the right hon. Gentleman is leading us. It would be an act of grace on his part if even now he were to cut out the whole thing. It is not worth all the trouble. I appeal to him seriously on behalf of this industry. We on the Labour benches are not supposed to care anything about industry, but we do want to look after our industries. We do not want to see our export trade going down. Some day we shall have the export trade and we shall manage it successfully. We do not want the machine broken before we take hold of it. We do not want to see unemployed increasing by thousands. It is a terrible thing for any man to go to bed thinking that any action of his has created more unemployment. This matter is too important to us in Yorkshire, whatever it may be in Lancashire, and whatever about Macclesfield, they do not want the silk tax in the sister town of Leek.

Photo of Mr John Remer Mr John Remer , Macclesfield

Does that apply to the manufacturers?

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

The workpeople do not, at all events. It would be interesting to know if the Chancellor is going to meet a deputation of workpeople before the opportunity is taken away from them of making an effective protest. I protest against these taxes. I am Satisfied they will do harm to the trade, and I am further satisfied that all the undoubted ingenuity of the right hon. Gentleman will not get him over the great hurdles which these taxes present.

Photo of Mr Thomas Fenby Mr Thomas Fenby , Bradford East

I desire to refresh the memory of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to what happened in connection with these deputations, and I should like to ask him if he will send for a copy of the letter which he sent to the Bradford Chamber of Commerce when the meeting with the deputation was arranged. The right hon. Gentleman will remember that I had a personal conversation with him as to whether he would receive a deputation from the Bradford Chamber of Commerce on the proposed Silk Duties. He referred me to his private secretary, to whom I suggested that, as a Member for Bradford, I should like to accompany that deputation. I was warned by the secretary of the Bradford Chamber of Commerce to be ready to go with that deputation, and so were other Members for Bradford and other constituencies interested in this industry, and after remaining in London, putting off other important engagements, at a quarter-past two, the day before the deputation was to meet the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we were simply told that if it was accompanied toy Members of Parliament it would not be received by the right hon. Gentleman. I should like to know if Members of Parliament have a right, personally, to interview and to accompany their constituents to members of the Government.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

I think we must keep to the present and not go into what we did in the past, however wrong the Chancellor of the Exchequer may have been.

Photo of Mr Thomas Fenby Mr Thomas Fenby , Bradford East

On a point of Order. What I am coming to is this: As the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Mackinder) pointed out, it might have been that even a Member of Parliament could have been of some assistance to the deputation and to his highness the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

The Chancellor of the Exchequer may have been right or he may have been guilty of the greatest discourtesy and foolishness, but really it does not affect the merits of the duties now proposed, and I must ask hon. Members to confine themselves to the question. I shall not allow the Chancellor of the Exchequer to vindicate himself.

Photo of Mr Thomas Fenby Mr Thomas Fenby , Bradford East

We in Yorkshire and the people in Lancashire and in Macclesfield ask to be protected against these particular duties, and they ask us to protest against them. The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) said that nobody in Macclesfield objected. I was passing through Macclesfield (yesterday, and a gentleman concerned in the silk industry objected personally to me against the duties.

Photo of Mr Thomas Fenby Mr Thomas Fenby , Bradford East

I am not compelled to give the name. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Macclesfield has probably a greater right than I have to say what happens in Macclesfield so far as these Silk Duties are concerned, but he has no right to say that nobody objects to them when I myself spoke to a man yesterday who did object.

HON. MEMBERS:

Name!

Photo of Mr Thomas Fenby Mr Thomas Fenby , Bradford East

I am not going any further. [Interruption.]

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

If the hon. Member does not wish to give the name, neither I nor the Committee has the right to force him to give it.

Photo of Mr Thomas Fenby Mr Thomas Fenby , Bradford East

It is given to Members on all sides that, if they make a statement, they have some reason for making that statement, and I am not here to say what is not the truth. I wish to protest against these Silk Duties. Every Member here who is doing his duty has a perfect right to make the views of his constituents known to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I say it is not fair for the right hon. Gentleman to be prepared to listen to the views of some of those interested in this particular industry and not to the views of others.

Photo of Miss Ellen Wilkinson Miss Ellen Wilkinson , Middlesbrough East

I want to bring to the notice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer a communication which I have received from certain of the unions in the clothing trades about the effect that the proposed silk tax is going to halve on the making-up trades in this country, particularly those dealing with the cheaper classes of silk cloth. The right hon. Gentleman has had his attention called to that kind of cloth called by various names, but which, I think, in the trade is called bourrette, which is made from the very last and lowest class of waste from the silk cocoons. Its cost, I believe, is from 9d. to 10d. a lb. The retail price works out at about 9¾d. a yard. Its weight, approximately, is 4 ozs. to the yard, or 4½ yards to the lb., and the duty per yard is about 1s. 9d., which is, roughly speaking, 300 per cent. of the cost, insurance, and freight value. A good many frocks are imported from France. These frocks take, roughly, three yards of material per frock; that is to say, when these frocks are imported on the 33⅓ per cent. basis, they are liable to a duty of 1s. a frock, being at the rate of 4d. per yard of material used in their manufacture. But if the British manufacturer buys the material in order to make up the frocks, he will have to pay 1s. 9d. a yard, whereas his competitors' goods not made-up will only have to pay 4d. a yard. That is to say, there is a bonus given to the French manufacturer of 1s. 5d. a yard. This is going to be a very serious thing for a large number of makers-up of this class of goods.

It is not only going to make the cost prohibitive when you put a duty of 1s. 9d. per yard on material that only costs 9¾d. a yard, but it will throw out of work a very large number of women who are dependent upon this class of work. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has taken these cheaper materials into consideration, but I am asked by the unions concerned in this class of labour, and who have already a Very large number of unemployed girls on their books, to bring this to the notice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and ask him to make further inquiries with a view to seeing whether something cannot be done not to tax the makers-up in this country so enormously as compared with their foreign competitors. It is surely inconsistent for the party which talks so much about foreign competition to give such a bonus to foreign competition.

Captain BENN:

I do not think it is possible that the Debate should terminate without a reply from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) has made a strong case, and it is not going to be put off by the silence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the absence of the Financial Secretary. Before I go further, I would like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer why he has changed the relative rate of the Customs and Excise Duties? The Import Duty on raw silk was 4s.; in the Finance Bill it is 3s. On silk tissues it has remained unchanged. On artificial silk the Excise paid was 2s. 6d.; in the Finance Bill it is 1s. Artificial yarns paid 3s.; in the Finance Bill 2s. On tissues it has remained the same? What does it mean? We are entitled to our own view of the wisdom of using the silk trade as a fiscal instrument, and making manufacturers of artificial silk into farmers of taxes. But what we are entitled to ask the Chancellor is why he has turned, what was brought in as a revenue proposal, into a protective tax? We really must have an answer to that ques- tion. He defended his proposal on the ground that he must have revenue. I do not want to cover the ground that has been covered in the last few days, but I would point this out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer: The only Committee, as we have seen from the White Paper, that has examined the claim of the silk trade for a duty has refused it. There was a Committee that sat in 1923, about which the hon. Member for Maccles-field (Mr. Remer) knows something—he has been singularly silent of late in contrast to what he had to say before—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] If the hon. Gentleman wishes to interrupt me I shall certainly give way

Captain BENN:

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the question as to whether the silk trade should or should not have a protection tax was put before one of these precious Committees—

Photo of Mr John Remer Mr John Remer , Macclesfield

It was nothing of the kind.

Captain BENN:

That is the statement which, forcible as it is—

Photo of Mr John Remer Mr John Remer , Macclesfield

I think I may say that the hon. and gallant Gentleman is simply unable to find out what happened in 1923. What really happened was that there was an inquiry into the state of the lace and silk industries. It was neither under the Safeguarding of Industries Act or anything else: it was simply an inquiry into these two trades. There was no question of a protective duty whatever in the course of this inquiry.

Captain BENN:

I think the Committee will see. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] I think the Committee ought to congratulate me on having got something from the hon. Gentleman. I trust he will not get into trouble with his lords and masters. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] The fact of the matter is that the Committee even by the terms of the White Paper, unhampered, examined into the trade, as the hon. Gentleman says with perfect freedom, and they did refuse—

Photo of Mr John Remer Mr John Remer , Macclesfield

Excuse me. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is entirely mistaken. There were two on one side, and two on the other.

Captain BENN:

—which resulted in the Committee refusing to recommend the duty. That is so well known that I am amazed that the hon. Member, who represents the one division in the country where there is not a dissatisfied man, should deny that the result of the inquiry was that the Committee refused to recommend a duty, and that at a time when the Government were unbound by any pledge. Then the matter lapsed, but now the Chancellor comes along—and we are entitled to say that it is camouflage—with a scheme which he defends first on the ground that it is a revenue scheme—customs balanced by excise, with a slight turn in favour of the home manufacturer—and then turns what was a revenue scheme into a Protectionist scheme, and when he is asked why he has got absolutely no defence. He can make no apologia, but that he can make an effective and convincing defence is, I think, very much open to doubt.

That is the first general point. The second point, with reference to drawbacks, we shall, of course, deal with more fully later on. I presume we shall be in order in doing it then, otherwise I should deal with it now—with the technical details about drawbacks, and the tax upon the made-up article. It presents a vast field of interest to us and of difficulty for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Let me come to the point that was put by the hon. Lady the Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson). The Chancellor called this a luxury tax. That was his first line of defence. When the secret that had been so well kept was made public, and he learned what he was really doing, he abandoned the luxury-tax argument and compared this to the Sugar Duty, which is by no means a luxury tax. How does it work out? I do not know whether the hon. Lady—I was not so very attentive at that moment—[HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"]—I am conscious of my loss—I am not quite sure whether the hon. Lady dealt with the example of the expensive frock.

Captain BENN:

Then I will deal with it. There is a material which I am told is called ninon, and I am told it may cost 12s. a yard. I am told by—[HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"] I shall take refuge in the same device as the hon. Member for Macclesfield. I am told that a yard of ninon weighs an ounce. [Laughter.] The Chancellor and I are discussing the silk issue on almost equal terms, because we are both acquainted with it at second hand. We will suppose that it is, as I am informed, that a yard of ninon weighs an ounce. As 7s. 9d. per lb. the tax on a yard of ninon would be 6d.—the tax on this expensive material for the clothing of the rich is a 4 per cent. tax. Now I will come to the material—

Photo of Mr Robert Bourne Mr Robert Bourne , Oxford

There is an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Been) which deals with the tax of 7s. 9d. per yard. Surely this should be discussed on that Amendment and not on the question before the House, which is as to the duty on undischarged silk?

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

It is usual on the first Amendment dealing with a particular subject to allow a discussion beyond the limits of the Amendment, but, of course, the hon. and gallant Member will not repeat the same arguments on another occasion.

Captain BENN:

I am entirely in your hands. If you think it necessary for me to reserve my argument until we reach a further Amendment, I shall be glad to do so, although I think it would be more convenient to make my criticisms now. We have established the fact that ninon is to be taxed on a 4 per cent. basis, and now I come to the cheap material. I will take for example noil cloth, which is what is called Government silk, imported from France, for the very good reason that the raw material is grown in France, and although it is real silk, it is of the poorest quality because it is made from the waste of the waste. This material is only worth 6d. a yard, and a yard weighs 4 ozs. Therefore it is not the light weight that the fine silk would be. The consequence is that the ninon material for the fine lady is taxed at only 4 per cent., while noil cloth for the poor work-girl is taxed at 300 per cent. I am only repeating the argument which was put forward by the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson). Of course, she asked what about the frocks? The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his new zeal for Protection, will no doubt desire that we should, by proper means, have the manu- facture created in this country, but what are you doing to meet the views of the supporters of Tariff Reform on the benches opposite. You are simply taxing the material for these frocks at 300 per cent.

My second point is that by this proposal you are saying that if you import the manufactured article you must pay 33⅓ per cent., but if you import the raw material you must pay 300 per cent. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] But the facts are as I have stated and hon. Members who interrupt me should get up and defend themselves by arguments. Under these circumstances is it to be wondered at that the right hon. Gentleman should shuffle about on this question rather than such facts as these should be brought to light? The arrangements which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made with the trade are simply chaos. His officials may tell him that this tax will work because they are professional optimists in this matter, but I would like to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that those actually engaged in the industry such as the silk section of the London Chamber of Commerce are opposing this tax because they think it is adopting a wrong principle in the trade which cannot be worked satisfactorily. Under these circumstances what is the use of trying to stifle debate when all the people working in this trade are likely to suffer severely. I would, with very great respect, but with real insistence, ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to answer those two questions—the question put, documented and substantiated' by figures, by the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough, as to the relative taxation of rich and poor, and the further question that I put as to what defence there is, and on what grounds, for changing a system, which he introduced as a revenue system, into one of pure Protection.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

This duty is still a revenue duty The object of the duty was revenue, and its object continues to be revenue. Originally, following the precedent of Mr. Gladstone in regard to the Tobacco Duty in 1864, we gave the turn of the market to the home trade, to the home producer, at every stage in the manufacture of silk, as against the foreign importer. Then a discussion took place in the House and in the country, and endeavouring, as I did, to allay apprehen- sion and calm opposition, I made these slight concessions, which still left the duties with a turn similar to that which Mr. Gladstone introduced in 1864, though rather stronger, with very beneficial results, so far as I can see, to the trade interests concerned, who are, as far as I can make out, unanimously, or practically unanimously, satisfied with the aspect of the duties in their present form, whose trade, judging by the statistics which I have been forced to study, has undergone a slight improvement, and whose plans for employment have in nearly all cases indicated a certain expansion.

I quite agree that that does not cover the case of the consumer, but I hope that the case of the consumer will be dealt with, firstly, by the fact that he will be discharging a public duty in bearing a portion of the taxation of the country, and, secondly, by the fact that artificial silk is not, I believe, to be the subject of any serious or permanent increase in price, and will probably be used on a larger scale and at a cheaper price this time next year than it is now. I should have been glad if it had been found possible to have made the turn in favour of the home producer slightly less than it is, but in adjusting matters and endeavouring to find a new source of revenue, which I am sure will become a permanent revenue—for I am quite certain that this Silk Duty will never be taken off until at least the Tea Duty and the Sugar Duty have been taken off, until, in fact, every other form of indirect taxation has been swept away—in endeavouring to carry this permanent addition to our revenue into law I have undoubtedly found it necessary to do what I could to allay the apprehension of the various sections of the trade. But the substantial quality and character of the Duty still remain; it is a revenue duty, in the case of which four-fifths of the cost to the consumer should reach the Exchequer. As regards the tax on raw material of natural silk, that requires no countervailing Excise, because it finds no counterpart in domestic production. That is my answer to that. We had a long talk then about the discourtesy shown in not receiving Members of Parliament of all parties on these deputations.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

I may remind the right hon. Gentleman that I stopped the hon. Member.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I only wish to say I am certain there was no discourtesy of any kind intended. I do not wish heat to be imparted into our discussions through any misunderstanding of that kind. I welcome gladly the advice of any competent authorities in the House, and if I can be placed in contact with them privately and receive any reasonable or helpful suggestions they shall be proved and examined, from whatever quarter they come, provided it is from people who have made a genuine study of the subject and have a genuine desire to facilitate the course of public business.

I come to the speech of the hon. Lady. It was a very excellent speech on a technical point. I am sure she will not expect me to follow out all the reactions of the very carefully considered figures which she has quoted. I should not be treating them with the respect they deserve if I attempted to do so in an answer across the floor of the House. While I have been in attendance upon the House for the greater part of the last few weeks, and continuously for the last three days, an inquiry into secondary refinements of the Silk Duties has been proceeding continuously, and one of the questions which has been engaging attention is this very specially limited product. It is not a very extensive importation. It is a special importation.

Photo of Miss Ellen Wilkinson Miss Ellen Wilkinson , Middlesbrough East

It is 10,000,000 yards imported annually.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

That is not at all a large proportion of the general field of the duties. It is a new point that has come to light in the last few days. [Interruption.] If I am to be interrupted every single second, I will not bother the Committee any more. I cannot carry on a running conversation. This matter is being examined very carefully at present, and I hope to be able to suggest in the interval between now and the Report Stage, a modification which will not affect the structure of the tax, because it would certainly be a disproportionate weight of duty to place upon this particular fabric. I can promise that the figures which have been put forward by the hon. Lady, and the point which has been so emphatically enforced by her coadjutor, the hon. and gallant Gentleman on the back bench, will be carefully examined, and I shall probably have some announcement to make on the Report stage. It is no use the hon. and gallant Gentleman using the expressions he has used because, obviously, we must carry on our business in one way or the other. Either Ministers have to respond to reasonably constructive points when they are put forward from one part of the Committee or another, or they are simply to sit still and meet everything with a dull negation, refuse to alter anything and rely upon the strength of their majority. I take the position that even at the eleventh hour, if any new suggestion is made of a character which is helpful and promotes the simplification of the tax, we will see that it is carefully considered and, if desirable, embodied in the legislation. I think that is a reasonable way of carrying on our business and I hope in doing that I am not going to be exposed to the countercharge "Oh! We never get to the end of these duties, for you are always introducing new points." The Schedule as it stands is the Schedule of the taxes and it is substantially, and for all purposes, our policy in regard to the taxes. If, in the interval before Report we find that a new line ought to be added to meet some special case such as this—and it is very creditable to the hon. Lady that she should have been able to bring it forward—then a considered Amendment on the subject could be introduced on Report stage.

Photo of Sir Robert Hamilton Sir Robert Hamilton , Orkney and Shetland

I rise to ask the Chancellor one question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] He has just made a very important announcement, and I wish to ask what opportunity we shall have of discussing the alteration in the scale which He proposes to make. Shall we have a full opportunity on the Report stage?

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

The Report stage is a very important one, and two days will be allowed for the discussion of the Report stage of the Budget, and as far as the Government are concerned they will welcome an expression of opinion

through the most convenient channel and the proper authorities as to what will be the points which can best be selected on all sides, in order that the Report stage may really be devoted to the outstanding points of difference, and that is the answer to the question I am now asked and to any other questions of a similar kind.

Captain BENN:

These are points of substance, and I want to ask the Chancellor whether I am right or not in my reading of the rules. The hon. Lady has raised a point about the four per cent. tax, and the Chancellor says between now and the Report stage he will consider it, and if necessary make an amendment on Report. That sounds a fair offer, but in point of fact he cannot make an amendment on Report, because one of the rules of the House is that on the Report stage of the Bill you cannot increase the charge—neither the Government nor anybody else—and therefore now is the last moment, because in another place no amendments are permitted, and this is the last effective opportunity.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

It is reducing the charge.

Captain BENN:

He knows perfectly well that on the Report stage he cannot make any effective financial alteration, and therefore if we pass this now we pass it for good.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is not only unappeasable, but he is wrong. It is not possible to increase the charge in view of the elaborate series of precautions which the wisdom and experience of Parliament in the past has devised, but the charge can be reduced by the House at any time in debate. The only thing which suffers is the public Exchequer.

Question put: "That '1s. 0d.' stand part of the Schedule."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 229; Noes, 127.

Division No. 169.]AYES.[11.58 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelBalfour, George (Hampstead)Blades, Sir George Rowland
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.Barnett, Major Sir RichardBlundell, F. N.
Ainsworth, Major CharlesBeamish, Captain T. P. H.Boothby, R. J. G.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.Betterton, Henry B.Brass, Captain W.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Birchall, Major J. DearmanBrassey, Sir Leonard
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeGrotrian, H. BrentPenny, Frederick George
Brittain, Sir HarryGuinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Gunston, Captain D. W.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Pielou, D. P.
Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Hammersley, S. S.Pilcher, G.
Buckingham, Sir H.Hanbury, C.Power, Sir John Cecil
Burman, J. B.Harland, A.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Butler, Sir GeoffreyHarrison, G. J. C.Radford, E. A.
Cadogan, Major Hon. EdwardHartington, Marquess ofRees, Sir Beddoe
Campbell, E. T.Haslam, Henry C.Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Cassels, J. D.Hawke, John AnthonyReid, D. D. (County Down)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Remer, J. R.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonHenderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Chapman, Sir S.Hennessy, Major J. R. G.Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Chilcott, Sir WardenHoare, Lt. -Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Christie, J. A.Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Sandeman, A. Stewart
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHohler, Sir Gerald FitzroySanders, Sir Robert A.
Clarry, Reginald GeorgeHolbrook, Sir Arthur RichardSandon, Lord
Cobb, Sir CyrilHope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Hopkins, J. W. W.Shaw, Lt. -Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Colfox, Major Wm. PhillipsHoward, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Conway, Sir W. MartinHudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Shepperson, E. W.
Cooper, A. DuffHudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)Skelton, A. N.
Cope, Major WilliamHume, Sir G. H.Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Courtauld, Major J. S.Huntingfield, LordSmith-Carington, Neville W.
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.)Iliffe, Sir Edward M.Sprot, Sir Alexander
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Inskip, sir Thomas Walker H.Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Jacob, A. E.Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryKing, Captain Henry DouglasStanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)Lamb, J. Q.Storry Deans, R.
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipStott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Curzon, Captain ViscountLittle, Dr. E. GrahamStrickland, Sir Gerald
Dalkeith, Earl ofLoder, J. de V.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Lougher, L.Styles, Captain H. Walter
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanSugden, Sir Wilfrid
Dean, Arthur WellesleyLumley, L. R.Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Dixey, A. C.Lynn, Sir Robert J.Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Doyle, Sir N. GrattanMacdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)
Drewe, C.Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.)
Eden, Captain AnthonyMacintyre, IanTinne, J. A.
Edmondson, Major A. J.Macmillan, Captain H.Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Elliot, Captain Walter E.MacRobert, Alexander M.Ward, Lt. -Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Elveden, Viscount.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithMalone, Major P. B.Watts, Dr. T.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)Manningham-Buller, Sir MervynWells, S. R.
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Marriott, Sir J. A. R.Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Everard, W. LindsayMerriman, F. B.Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Falle, Sir Bertram G.Meyer, Sir FrankWilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-Wilson, H. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Fermoy, LordMoles, ThomasWindsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Fielden, E. B.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Finburgh, S.Moore, Sir Newton J.Wise, Sir Fredric
Fleming, D. P.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.Womersley, W. J.
Ford, P. J.Morden, Colonel Walter GrantWood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveWood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)
Fraser, Captain IanNail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir JosephWood, E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Nelson, Sir FrankWood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Galbraith, J. F. W.Neville, R. J.Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)
Ganzoni, sir JohnNewman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Gee, Captain R.Nicholson, O. (Westminster)Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamNicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnNuttall, EllisTELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Glyn, Major R. G. C.O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. HughSir Harry Barnston and Capt.
Goff, Sir ParkOman, Sir Charles William C.Margesson.
Gower, Sir RobertOrmsby-Gore, Hon. William
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Bromfield, WilliamCrawfurd, H. E.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Bromley, J.Dalton, Hugh
Alexander. A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Buchanan, G.Day, Colonel Harry
Ammon, Charles GeorgeCape, ThomasDuckworth, John
Attlee, Clement RichardCharleton, H. C.Duncan, C.
Barr, J.Clowes, S.Dunnico, H.
Batey, JosephClynes, Right Hon. John R.Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Beckett, John (Gateshead)Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)Elveden, Viscount
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Compton, JosephEvans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.Connolly, M.Fenby, T. D.
Broad, F. A.Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Forrest, W.
Gibbins, JosephLansbury, GeorgeShiels, Dr. Drummond
Gillett, George M.Lawson, John JamesSitch, Charles H.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Lunn, WilliamSlesser, Sir Henry H.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Mackinder, W.Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Groves, T.MacLaren, AndrewSnell, Harry
Grundy, T. W.Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)Stamford, T. W.
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)March, S.Stephen, Campbell
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)Maxton, JamesSutton, J. E.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley)Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir AlfredThorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Morris, R. H.Thurtle, E.
Hardie, George D.Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)Tinker, John Joseph
Harris, Percy A.Murnin, H.Varley, Frank B.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonNaylor, T. E.Viant, S. P.
Hayday, ArthurOliver, George HaroldWallhead, Richard C.
Hayes, John HenryPalin, John HenryWatson, W. M. (Dunfermilne)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Paling, W.Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Hirst, G. H.Pethick, Lawrence, F. W.Welsh, J. C.
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Ponsonby, ArthurWestwood, J.
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Potts, John S.Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
John, William (Rhondda, West)Riley, BenWilliams, David (Swansea, E.)
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Ritson, J.Williams, Dr J. H. (Llanelly)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stratford)Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)Windsor, Walter
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Rote, Frank H.Wright, W.
Kelly, W. T.Saklatvala, ShapurjiYoung, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Kennedy, T.Salter, Dr. Alfred
Kirkwood, D.Scurr, JohnTELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Mr. Barnes and Mr. Warne.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

There is on the Paper a number of Amendments in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith Burghs (Captain Benn). Perhaps he will explain their purpose.

Captain BENN:

I am very grateful for the opportunity of doing so. These Amendments are a collective series of Amendments, and are part of a constructive Schedule prepared by members of the trade as better than the Schedule of the Bill. The alteration in terminology is merely to provide a better graduated category. Hon. Members who are acquainted with the trade will be able to confirm or to contest that view. A second point is that we are endeavouring to restore the Customs' duty to the figure at which it was originally, and to eliminate the Protective element. That subject we have discussed in Committee, and I shall not deal with it further now. I would ask the Financial Secretary whether he would consider the question of amending the category, especially with reference to the mysterious things called "Spun, Scheppes, and noils", with a view to meeting the practical objections of the trade?

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

I shall call on the hon. and gallant Member to move his Amendment relating to "Spun, Scheppes, and noils", and then he can argue the series together.

Captain BENN:

I beg to move, in page 18, line 27, at the end, to insert the words,

"Spun, Scheppes, and noils4s.9d."

Mr. GUINNESS:

The Schedule which the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggests as an alternative for our Schedule is not merely different in terminology but, what is much more important, different in the way of Duty. It is quite clearly his object, not merely to keep the scales even, but to tilt them slightly in favour of the foreigner. He has shown great restraint in the briefness of his speech in moving the Amendment. I shall follow his example in replying. I have a good many details showing how the particular scale suggested would operate against the home producer, but I think it is enough to say in general that we have worked out our Schedule, amended as it has been, in close consultation with the Silk Association of Great Britain and Ireland. It is true that two or three members of that Association have expressed their dissatisfaction. Of course, there are varying interests represented in the Association. There is the importer's interest, which is different from the interest of the home producer, but the Association as a whole has accepted the Schedule. I have here a letter, dated 6th June, from the Secretary of the Association to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In that letter he states that he has been dealing with the objections to the Schedule of certain firms whose names are known to hon. Members opposite as to all Members of the House, and he says: The points raised by these traders have been fully discussed by the President on at least two occasions, and he says, on behalf of the Association, he has already informed these members of the Association that the matter is, from their point of view, closed, and we have accepted the scales of duties and rebates as they now stand. That being so, it is impossible for the Government to depart from the agreement which they have reached with the Silk Association and we must therefore ask the Committee to keep the terms in favour of the home producer as we have framed them.

Photo of Mr Horace Crawfurd Mr Horace Crawfurd , Walthamstow West

These Amendments to the Schedule simply propose amended figures. They are not an attempt to get rid of the protective effect of these proposals, but they seek to return to the scale which was originally laid down by the right hon. Gentleman himself. Accordingly, if they are criticised on the ground that there is in them an attempt to give an advantage to the foreign manufacturer, that criticism applies to the original scale of the right hon. Gentleman. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury said that these proposals in the Schedule, as they are now, are acceptable to the Silk Association, but the Silk Association does not represent the whole of the interests involved. It does not even represent the majority of the interests involved, and I should like to know from the Financial Secretary if the proposals which he says are now fixed and final, are acceptable to the merchants, traders and exporters. Are they acceptable, for instance, to the silk section of the London Chamber of Commerce. If these figures, having been accepted by a certain section of the interests involved, are now regarded as final, what becomes of the statement just made that further consideration will be given to them before the Report stage?

Mr. GUINNESS:

My right hon. Friend said we hoped to bring forward a new and reduced rate on noil tissue. That is the only case mentioned. As to the other question raised by the hon. Member, this Committee was a consultative Committee and all interests concerned in the silk trade were represented. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was simply concerned to submit the various schemes under consideration to all the interests. Of course you will find individual traders who are not completely content but we believe the scale does substantial justice in view of the complicated nature of the subject.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. GUINNESS:

I beg to move in page 18, line 28, column 1, to leave out the words "containing silk ".

This is merely a drafting Amendment to make clear the manner of computing the duty and to make clear that these rates apply to the poundage of goods made and not to the silk content, in each of the lines of the Schedule.

Captain BENN:

I am proud to find my name associated with that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as sponsoring an Amendment. But, on examining this Amendment this morning, I came to the conclusion that it was one that I ought not to move, and so I make a present to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the dialectical point, if he cares to have it, that I am proposing to resist an Amendment which actually stands in my name on the Paper. I may be wrong about the interpretation of this Amendment, and I will ask the right hon. Gentleman, or the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer), or some other expert to tell me whether or not the danger that I foresee is a real one. We are dealing with the rate of duty on silk tissues. It is charged on the weight, not on the yard, and the original proposal of the Government was to charge on the weight of real silk in the tissue. I am told that artificial silk is not really concerned in this point at all. There is a process, I am informed, called loading the silk; that is to say, the silk itself, which is very light and easily drawn out of shape, is treated with metal, generally tin, for the purpose of giving the silk a better hang in the frock and making it more solid. Ribbons, particularly, are treated in this way, I understand. Now, the Chancellor of the Exchequer says: "Instead of merely taxing the amount of silk in the tissue, I am going to tax the whole of the tissue; that is to say, I will weigh in the balances not merely the silk, which the House has, by passing the Ways and Means Resolution, authorised me to tax, but the tin in the tissue, and I am going to levy the same duty on the tin as on the silk."

If my interpretation of this is right, I would ask the Committee if it thinks the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is really acting with complete candour to the Committee when he says that this Amendment is merely a drafting Amendment, and when, in fact, it turns out that, whereas he was authorised originally to tax the silk in the tissue, he is now taking authority to tax the silk plus the tin. That is to say, he may be multiplying his duty from one of 33⅓ per cent. on the silk content to one of 100 per cent. or more on the silk content. I have consulted merchants in the trade, and they tell me that this a real difficulty. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has asked for duties on many things, and before the end of this Parliament he will have asked for duties on many more. Of that, I am confident. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"]. We know that hon. Members opposite do not think the Safeguarding of Industries pledge has any binding force, but I think it is a surprise to learn that in this silk Clause there is power sought to tax tin, and yet I am told that that is really the effect of this Amendment. There is one further point I wish to raise in regard to the meaning of tissues, but I think perhaps the better place to raise it would be on line 39, where the Government are moving another Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I beg to move in page 18, lines 29 and 30, column 1, to leave out the words "for every pound of silk therein," and to insert instead thereof the words "the lb."

All this series of Amendments affects a highly technical and localised sphere. There are two principal ways in which the weight of an imported article of silk character may be increased. I am leaving out altogether the question of whether the silk is discharged or undischarged, whether the gum has been extracted from the products or not, and I come only to these two specialised forms of treating tissues which involve substantial additions to the weight. The first is this question of what is called loading; that is to say, that a silk tissue which contains a certain proportion of silk is weighted with some other substance, in some cases salts of tin, in order to give it a very heavy and sumptuous feel in the wear, and to add to the general attractiveness of the fabric, while at the same time largely diminishing the cost to the producer. There is no doubt that after a certain point in this process is reached the loading falls very near the area of what is unceremoniously described as adulteration. For instance, in some cases the loading sometimes amounts to as much as 70 per cent. of the entire weight; 70 per cent of it is a loading of foreign matter. Fabrics that are heavily loaded with these non-fibrous elements cannot possess the constituency or the durability of the fabrics, whether of real or artificial silk, which are composed mainly of fibrous yarn. I cannot say that I approach the question of loading in an extremely sympathetic spirit; but if there is to be any loading of these fabrics upon any considerable scale, or marked degree, there is no reason why it should not be on this side of the Channel. We had a long discussion with the representatives of the silk trade as to whether the duty should be levied on the silk content, on the loaded article minus the loading or including the loading, and after a long discussion, in which I need hardly say, different opinions were expressed, it was the consensus of opinion that it would be far more in the interests of British trade that the duty should be levied on the total weight, including the loading. That means that if there is to be loading that loading will, in the main, be done in this country. Then there is the point of the development of the loading machinery. We were told that a very important firm had already the machinery to enable them to do the process of loading; therefore in regard to the adulterated part of the goods there will be no risk of failure of the supply to meet any possible demand. Therefore we decided that we would tax boldly and freely the silk tissues on full weight, including loading.

But that is only a portion of the subject. Side by side with this question of loading is the problem of filling. In India, China, and other places a lot of silk fabric is made up, and very often a good many extraneous elements are mixed with the silk content. Rice and flour and other ingredients are mixed with the silk fabric, and these all add to the weight, but have to be removed in the finishing process. There is a series of amendments charging the duty on the full weight of the silk so far as loading is concerned, and we propose to make allowance in particular cases in which these products of a filling character are present. We make allowance for the home manufacturer who wishes to import filled products by excluding them from the full process of the duty, while in these heavy loaded products we propose to tax the silk upon the full weight. I have given a general indication of the policy we have pursued in order that this series of amendments may be discussed together. These are the two broad principles we have followed on the advice of the trade, and after sitting in conference with 10 or 15 representatives of different interests in the trade.

Captain BENN:

May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the same principle is followed with regard to drawbacks as in regard to loading?

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

We cannot say that every aspect of the duty finds its correlation in the drawback. Some of the aspects of the duty have no connection with the products which are the subject of the drawback, but so far as there is any connection this has been harmonised and worked out in all cases.

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Aberavon

I am sorry that I cannot congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) on his company to-night.

Captain BENN:

I think the right hon. Gentleman was not in the House when I apologised for having put down the Amendment. There was a mistake, and I am opposing the Amendment moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Aberavon

I heard the apology and the hon. and gallant Member will find that his mistake was not a small one, but a mistake of most serious and far-reaching consequence. The defence we have just heard is simple, naked and unashamed Protection. It is the worst instance we have had in all our debates of the breach of that pledge to which reference has so often been made, and as far as we are concerned we shall divide the Committee on the question.

Photo of Mr John Jones Mr John Jones , West Ham Silvertown

I cannot pretend, of course, to be an expert on matters of this kind. I was not born with a loom in my hand. I was born with a shovel in my mouth. But what does the Chancellor of the Exchequer mean by loading? Some of us have been filled, but so far as this particular loading is concerned I want to know where tin comes in? I have always understood that tin is a product of the British Empire. Is he going to tax tin? If so, although he is giving to some of our Colonies and protectorates preferences in tariffs, what he is going to give with one hand he is taking away with the other. I am not, of course, going to keep the House very long, I never do—I should like to keep hon. Members longer in another place—what I want is to have an explanation as to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer means by this sort of legislation. First he will, and then he will not. He gives something with one hand and takes it away with the other. It is a game of "put and take." We put and he takes. And since the Government had began this game of giving a preference this way and then that, of giving relief in this and that way, so long as you had a policy of that kind you are bound to find yourself in difficulties. We have spent a fortnight discussing the rival merits of various interests. I want to ask this House not to accept this proposition. We propose to go straight for what we believe to be the right thing; that the workers and this country should have more consideration, and not the people who think they represent the workers because they have been able to get here by accident.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

It has been very interesting to hear the explanation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the very shameless methods which have been adopted by manufacturers at home and abroad, and in India, of artificially weighting the materials that our people have to buy. These are the methods of adulteration carried out not only by the people abroad but by our own manufacturers abroad. It will be very interesting to the general public to find that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is cognisant of all these methods; and I hope they will take note of it.

Captain BENN:

Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer tell me if any of this loading is done in this country? Is there any industry?

HON. MEMBERS:

Yes.

Captain BENN:

I am told there is not, at least to any considerable extent. Then there is this second point. Do we understand that where silk is loaded up to 70 per cent. that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is imposing a duty upon it of 15s. 9d. per lb. weight? That is a point which should be understood by those who are going to vote for the proposal.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

The figures are those in the Schedule, and there is nothing of the kind mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member in the Schedule. The hon. and gallant Member has argued that in the case of a tissue which is 70 per cent. loading and 30 per cent. silk that the silk would be charged at that rate. That may be so. We are definitely charging the duty on the weight of the silk tissue, including the loading. We have decided on that as a matter of policy. If it can be done in this country I am sure the loading will be done here. It is done now on a small scale and the machinery exists in some of the most important silk firms for undertaking this task on a larger scale. We have no doubt-that whatever is desirable in this matter will be done in this country. Arrangements are made which will prevent silk being loaded in this country for export in order to obtain an excessive drawback. It will not be to any person's advantage to load silk in this country for export in order to get the drawback of the higher rate.

Photo of Mr Frank Varley Mr Frank Varley , Mansfield

Just to complete the picture of commercial morality, and seeing that he has given his benediction to adulteration, will the Chancellor of the Exchequer ensure that the customer knows what he is paying in tax for silk and what for filling?

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I see no reason why that should not be made known. In the examination of such subjects as this a great many novel aspects come to light, but the customer who goes to buy a loaded silk article does not say to himself, or herself: "I wish to buy an article which is made of 30 per cent. silk and 70 per cent. loading, or '70 per cent. silk' and 30 per cent. loading." The customer says to herself: "This looks a very nice kind of stuff. I can make myself a nice dress out of it, and I will take it for what it looks like and what it is." At the same time, if you come to the ramifications of many businesses you find substitutes for expensive commodities are often intro- duced in some quantity or another. Our tax discourages it.

Photo of Miss Ellen Wilkinson Miss Ellen Wilkinson , Middlesbrough East

Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer aware that the first time that this silk is washed the filling disappears: therefore the customer is paying a tax on a commodity that disappears?

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

The fact of our decision to tax this adulterated import, which is apparently to some extent swept away in the wash will be to prevent a number of people being misled by apparent sheen into purchasing an article of no great durability.

Mr. SANDEMAN:

I have not heard so much nonsense talked for a long time. You may take it that what really happens in buying a thing at a price is that that price is regulated by the amount of filling in goods which are not pure silk. If you want the finished goods you will have to fill them with as much as they will hold with safety. You have a very good example in cotton goods, in which Japan did a big trade with Australia. The goods were excellent until they began to think Australians were beginning to get a bit soft. The Japanese then sent down goods which the merchants shook and the filling fell out. You won't get that with Lancashire goods. Lancashire people know how much, with safety, they can put in the goods, and they put in that and get a good finish and a good result. We have heard the argument: why should tin put into the finish of silk goods pay tax? It is plain that if tin is put into goods we can put it in here. We can finish just as well as anyone on the Continent, and we do not want Continental stuff if we can keep British labour employed. There is no advantage to be got by sending tin out to France and bringing it back here.

Mr. SANDEMAN:

No, that would be bad. I am informed that gin in cotton makes a stain.

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

It has been made quite clear that this is not to keep out adulterated goods, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer encourages Lancashire men to adulterate goods. It is nonsense to say this country does not adulterate cloth. A great deal of the calico comes out of Lancashire adulterated.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of Schedule."

Division No. 170.]AYES.[12.48 a.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West)Hayday, ArthurRobinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Adamson, W. M. (Stan., Cannock)Hayes, John HenryRose, Frank H.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Scurr, John
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHenderson, T. (Glasgow)Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barr, J.Hirst, G. H.Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Sitch, Charles H.
Broad, F. A.Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Buchanan, G.John, William (Rhondda, West)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Cape, ThomasJohnston, Thomas (Dundee)Stamford, T. W.
Charleton, H. C.Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Stephen, Campbell
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Sutton, J. E.
Crawfurd, H. E.Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Dalton, HughKelly, W. T.Tinker, John Joseph
Day, Colonel HarryKennedy, T.Varley, Frank B.
Duckworth, JohnKirkwood, D.Wallhead, Richard C.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Lawson, John JamesWarne, G. H.
Fenby, T. D.MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Forrest, W.Mackinder, W.Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Gibbins, JosephMacLaren AndrewWebb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Gillett, George M.Maxton. JamesWelsh, J. C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Morris, R. H.Westwood, J.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Murnin, H.Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Grundy, T. W.Oliver, George HaroldWilliams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Paling, W.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Windsor, Walter
Hardie, George D.Potts, John S.
Harris, Percy A.Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonRiley, BenSir Godfrey Collins and Sir Robert
Hutchison.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelCraig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Haslam, Henry C.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryHawke, John Anthony
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)Headlam, Lieut. -Colonel C. M.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.Dalkeith, Earl ofHeneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Davies, A, V. (Lancaster, Royton)Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Day, Colonel HarryHerbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Dixey, A. C.Hilton, Cecil
Barnett, Major Sir RichardDoyle, Sir N. GrattanHoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Barnston, Major Sir HarryDrewe, C.Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Beamish, Captain T. P. HEden, Captain AnthonyHolbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Betterton, Henry B.Edmondson, Major A. J.Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Elliot, Captain Walter E.Hopkins, J. W. W.
Blundell, F. N.Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithHoward, Captain Hon. Donald
Boothby, R. J. G.Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.)
Bourne, Captain Robert CroftEverard, W. LindsayHuntingfield, Lord
Brass, Captain W.Falle, Sir Bertram G.Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)
Brassey, sir LeonardFanshawe, Commander G. D.Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveFermoy, LordInskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeFielden, E B.Jacob, A. E.
Brittain, Sir HarryFinburgh, SKing, Captain Henry Douglas
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Fleming D. P.Lamb, J. Q.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Ford P. J.Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)Foxcroft, Captain C. T.Loder, J. de V.
Burman, J. B.Fraser Captain IanLuce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Butler, Sir GeoffreyFremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Lumley, L. R.
Cadogan, Major Hon. EdwardGanzoni, Sir JohnLynn, Sir R. J.
Campbell, E. T.Gee, Captain R.Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamMacdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMacintyre, Ian
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonGlyn, Major R. G. C.Macmilian, Captain H.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W).Goff, Sir ParkMacRobert, Alexander M.
Chapman, Sir S.Gower, Sir RobertMaitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Charteris. Brigadier-General J.Gretton, Colonel JohnManningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Christie, J. A.Grotrian, H. BrentMargesson, Captain D.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerGuinness Rt. Hon. Walter E.Merriman, F. B.
Cobb, Sir CyrilGunston, Captain D. W.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Colfox, Major Wm. PhilipHammersley, S. S.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Cope, Major WilliamHanbury, C.Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Courtauld, Major J. S.Harland, A.Nelson, Sir Frank
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. sir George L.Harrison, G. J. C.Neville, R. J.
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Hartington, Marquess ofNicholson, O (Westminster)

The Committee divided: Ayes, 84; the Noes, 183.

Nuttall, EllisSanders, Sir Robert A.Tinne, J. A.
O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. HughSassoon, sir Philip Albert Gustave D.Ward, Lt. -Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamShaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Penny, Frederick GeorgeShaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)Watts, Dr. T.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)Wells, S. R.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)Shepperson, E. W.Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Pielou, D. P.Skelton, A. N.Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Pilcher, G.Slaney, Major P. KenyonWilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Power, Sir John CecilSprot, Sir AlexanderWindsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel AsshetonStanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Radford, E. A.Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)Wise, Sir Fredric
Reid, Captain A. S. C. (Warrington)Storry Deans, R.Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Remer, J. R.Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.Wood, E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.Strickland, Sir GeraldWoodcock, Colonel H. C.
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.Styles, Captain H. Walter
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Sugden, Sir WilfridTELLERS FOR THE NOES
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)Tasker, Major R. InigoCaptain Viscount Curzon and Lord Stanley.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Sandeman, A. Stewart

Proposed words there inserted.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I beg to move, in page 18, line 31, column 1, to leave out the words "for every pound of silk therein," and to insert instead thereof the words "the lb."

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 81; Noes, 181.

Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithHudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Huntingfield, LordRussell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Everard, W. LindsayHutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Falle, Sir Bertram G.Iliffe, Sir Edward M.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Sandeman, A. Stewart
Fermoy, LordJacob, A. E.Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Fielden, E. B.King, Captain Henry DouglasSassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Finburgh, S.Lamb, J. Q.Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)
Fleming, D. P.Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipShaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)
Ford, P. J.Loder, J. de V.Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanShepperson, E. W.
Fraser, Captain IanLumley, L. R.Skelton, A. N.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Lynn, Sir R. J.Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Ganzoni, Sir JohnMacdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Sprot, Sir Alexander
Gee, Captain R.Macintyre, IanStanley, Lord (Fylde)
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamMacmillan, Captain H.Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMac Robert, Alexander M.Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel-Storry Deans, R.
Goff, Sir ParkManningham-Buller, Sir MervynStott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Gower, Sir RobertMargesson, Captain D.Strickland, Sir Gerald
Gretton, Colonel JohnMerriman, F. B.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Grotrian, H. BrentMonsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Styles, Captain H. Walter
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Gunston, Captain D. W.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveTasker, Major R. Inigo
Hammersley, S. S.Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir JosephThomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Hanbury, C.Nelson, Sir FrankTinne, J. A.
Harland, A.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Harrison, G. J. C.Nicholson, O. (Westminster)Watts, Dr. T.
Hartington, Marquess ofNuttall, EllisWells, S. R.
Haslam, Henry C.O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. HughWheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Hawke, John AnthonyOrmsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamWilliams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Penny, Frederick GeorgeWilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Heneage. Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.Pielou, D. P.Wise, Sir Fredric
Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)Pilcher, G.Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Hilton, CecilPower, Sir John CecilWood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel AsshetonWoodcock, Colonel H. C.
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)Radford, E. A.Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardReid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Remer, J. R.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Hopkins, J. W. W.Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.Captain Hacking and Major Cope.
Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)

Proposed words there inserted.

Captain BENN:

May I ask about the small Amendment which I have on the Paper, but do not propose to move. If necessary I will withdraw the Motion. It deals with the silk content. If the Chancellor will say that it will improve the categories in the Schedule and will receive consideration I should be grateful and quite content. Perhaps I should formally move. After line 32, to insert the words: If the silk content is spun silk only, for every pound of such silk—5s. 8d.

Mr. GUINNESS:

I think the hon. and gallant Member might give us some explanation as to how he thinks this may improve the Schedule.

Captain BENN:

On a point of Order. I submit this Amendment—I put it down at the desire of the Silk Section of the London Chamber of Commerce. I respectfully urge that it should be formally moved.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

I have seen the Amendment and heard the explanation given and I have altered my mind. I do not select the Amendment.

Photo of Miss Ellen Wilkinson Miss Ellen Wilkinson , Middlesbrough East

I beg to move, in page 18, to leave out lines 33 to 41, inclusive.

I do not want to delay the Committee with another Speech on the question but I do want to point out that the result of the Amendment which I have would be to exclude artificial silk altogether from the purposes of this tax. I feel that the more one goes into the tax the more one realises the endless complications that are going to pursue when you try to put these taxes in operation. However much the Chancellor tries to meet our position, as he has attempted to meet the position I raised earlier in debate, he will only find that step by step he gets into a worse muddle. I suggest that this artificial silk, which is one of the cheapest fabrics, should be excluded from the tax. That is the only way of putting this matter right. I, therefore, move the Amendment which stands in my name.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

The hon. Member appreciates that we are dealing with the Customs Duty.

Photo of Miss Ellen Wilkinson Miss Ellen Wilkinson , Middlesbrough East

I am sorry. There are technical details. I want to bring up that point to leave out these articles.

Mr. GUINNESS:

Clause 4 of the Bill, which this Schedule carries out, was thoroughly discussed in Committee, and it was decided that

Division No. 172.]AYES.[1.10 a.m.
Acland-Troyte. Lieut.-ColonelFinburgh, S.Nelson, Sir Frank
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.Fleming, D. P.Neville, R. J.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Ford, P. J.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Foxcroft, Captain C. T.Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.Fraser, Captain IanNuttall, Ellis
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Ganzoni, Sir JohnOrmsby-Gore, Hon. William
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Gee, Captain R.Penny, Frederick George
Barnett, Major Sir RichardGilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnPercy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Barnston, Major Sir HarryGlyn, Major R. G. C.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Goff, Sir ParkPielou, D. P.
Betterton, Henry B.Gower, Sir RobertPilcher, G.
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Gretton, Colonel JohnPower, Sir John Cecil
Blundell, F. N.Grotrian, H. BrentPownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Boothby, R. J. G.Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Radford, E. A.
Bourne, Captain Robert CroftGunston, Captain D. w.Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Brass, Captain W.Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Remer, J. R.
Brassey, Sir LeonardHammersloy, s. S.Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveHanbury, C.Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeHarland, A.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Brittain, Sir HarryHarrison, G. J. C.Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Hartington, Marquess ofSamuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Haslam, Henry C.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Hawke, John AnthonySandeman, A. Stewart
Burman, J. B.Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Butler, Sir GeoffreyHenderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Campbell, E. T.Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)Hennessy. Major J. R. G.Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth. S.)Herbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonHilton, CecilShepperson, E. w.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Birm., W.)Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Skelton, A. N.
Chapman, Sir S.Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardSprot, Sir Alexander
Christie, J. A.Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHopkins, J. W. W.Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden. E.)
Cobb. Sir CyrilHoward, Captain Hon. DonaldStanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Storry Deans, R.
Colfox, Major Wm. PhillipsHuntingfield, LordStott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Cope, Major WilliamHutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Strickland, Sir Gerald
Courtauld, Major J. S.Iliffe, Sir Edward M.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Styles, Captain H. Walter
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Jacob, A. E.Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)King, Captain Henry DouglasTasker, Major R. Inigo
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryLamb, J. O.Tinne, J. A.
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipWard, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Curzon, Captain ViscountLoder, J. de V.Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Dalkeith, Earl ofLuce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanWatts, Dr. T.
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Lumley, L. R.Wells, S. R.
Dean, Arthur WellesleyLynn, Sir Robert J.Wheler, Major Sir- Granville C. H.
Dixey, A. C.MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Doyle, Sir N. GrattanMacintyre, IanWilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Drewe, CMacmillan, Captain H.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Eden, Captain AnthonyMacRobert, Alexander M.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Edmondson, Major A. J.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Wise, Sir Fredric
Elliot, Captain Walter E.Manningham-Buller, Sir MervynWood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithMargesson, Captain D.Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Merriman, F. B.Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Everard, W. LindsayMonsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Falle, Sir Bertram G.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveColonel Gibbs and Mr. Frederick
Fermoy, LordNall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir JosephThomson.
Fielden, E. B.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Broad. F. A.Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Buchanan, G.Crawfurd, H. E.
Ammon, Charles GeorgeCape, ThomasDalton, Hugh
Barr, J.Charleton, H. C.Day, Colonel Harry

artificial silk should be made liable. I am afraid we cannot go back on a system already agreed upon.

Question put, "That lines 33 to 38, stand part of the Schedule."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 180; Noes, 82.

Duckworth, JohnJones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Sitch, Charles H.
Fenby, T. D.Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Gibbins, JosephKelly, W. T.Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Gillett, George M.Kirkwood, D.Stamford, T. W.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Lawson, John JamesStephen, Campbell
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Sutton, J. E.
Grundy, T. W.Mackinder, W.Tinker, John Joseph
Hall, F. (York, W. R-, Normanton)MacLaren, AndrewVarley, Frank B.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Maxton, JamesWallhead, Richard C.
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Morris, R. H.Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Hardie, George D.Murnin, H.Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Harris, Percy A.Oliver, George HaroldWebb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonPalin, John HenryWelsh, J C.
Hayday, ArthurPaling, W.Westwood, J.
Hayes, John HenryParkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Potts, John S.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Hirst, G. H.Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Riley, BenWindsor, Walter
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Rose, Frank H.TELLERS FOR THE NOES
John, William (Rhondda, West)Scurr, JohnMr. Thomas Kennedy and Mr. Warne.
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Shiels, Dr. Drummond

Mr. GUINNESS:

I beg to move, in page 18, lines 39 to 41, column 1, to leave out the words "containing artificial silk, for every pound of artificial silk therein" and to insert instead thereof the words "the lb."

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

I think we are entitled to an explanation. When the Amendment was moved to real silk we were led to suppose that it was purely a drafting Amendment, but an innocent little Amendment was moved without any explanation which was shown to be of great importance. On the one hand it brings into existence a great new industry of making silk; on the other hand we were told it was going to destroy a wicked attempt to defraud the public by palming off on them silk that was not silk at all but a mixture of lace and silk. I am informed that artificial silk does not lend itself in the same way to absorb this owing to its peculiar nature manufactured either from wood pulp or cotton waste. I do think, when for the first time for 50 years, a new tax has been introduced, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is responsible first to understand the tax and then to explain it to the Committee.

Mr. GUINNESS:

This Amendment is put in merely as a drafting Amendment for the sake of making the Clause clear. The effect will be that instead as under

Division No. 173.]AYES.[1.25 a.m,
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelBarnett, Major Sir RichardBourne, Captain Robert Croft.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.Barnston, Major Sir HarryBrass, Captain W.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Centr'l)Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Brassey, Sir Leonard
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Betterton, Henry B.Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Briscoe Richard George
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Blundell, F. N.Brittain, Sir Harry
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Boothby, R. J. G.Brocklebank C. E. R.

the Schedule charging 3s. 6d. per pound on the tissues containing artificial silk we redrafted it and put it so much per pound. If hon. Members will look at page 910 of the Order Paper, they will see that in Schedule 2, page 21, after line 2, it is proposed to insert the words In calculating for the purpose of any duty or drawback the weight of any yarn or tissue the weight of any fibres other than silk or artificial silk or of any waterproofing materials in the yarn or tissue shall be excluded.

That has reference to this particular part of the Schedule, and the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) will appreciate that his fears are groundless, because cotton fibres will be expressly excluded by this further Amendment which we shall shortly move. The result of this is that you will exclude all kinds, throughout this Schedule, where they are other than silk fibres, and you will leave in the tax on the loading and upon which both sides of the Committee are agreed.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule," put, and negatived.

Question put, "That the words 'the lb.' be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 177; Noes, 82.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Penny, Frederick George
Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Gunston, Captain D. W.Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Burman, J. B.Hammersley, S. S.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Butler, Sir GeoffreyHanbury, C.Pielou, D. P.
Campbell, E. T.Harland, A.Pilcher, G.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)Harrison, G. J. C.Power, Sir John Cecil
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)Hartington, Marquess ofPownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonHaslam, Henry C.Radford, E. A.
Chapman, Sir S.Hawke, John AnthonyReid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Remer, J. R.
Christie, J. A.Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHeneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Cobb, Sir CyrilHennessy, Major J. R. G.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Colfox, Major Wm. PhillipsHilton, CecilSamuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Courtauld, Major J. S.Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Sandeman, A. Stewart
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardSanders, Sir Robert A.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryHopkins, J. W. W.Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)
Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Curzon, Captain ViscountHudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Dalkeith, Earl ofHuntingfield, LordShepperson, E. W.
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Skelton, A. N.
Dean, Arthur WellesleyIliffe, Sir Edward M.Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Dixey, A. C.Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Sprot, Sir Alexander
Doyle, Sir N. GrattanJacob, A. E.Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Drewe, C.King, Captain Henry DouglasStanley, Col. Hon. G. F.(Will'sden, E.)
Eden, Captain AnthonyLamb, J. Q.Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Edmondson, Major A. J.Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipStorry Deans, R.
Elliot, Captain Walter E.Loder, J. de V.Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithLuce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanStrickland, Sir Gerald
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Lumley, L. R.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Everard, W. LindsayLynn, Sir Robert J.Styles, Captain H. Walter
Falle, Sir Bertram G.Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Macintyre, IanTasker, Major R. Inigo
Fermoy, LordMacmillan, Captain H.Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Fielden, E. B.MacRobert, Alexander M.Tinne, J. A.
Finburgh, S.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Ward, Lt. -Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Fleming, D. P.Manningham-Buller, Sir MervynWaterhouse, Captain Charles
Ford, P. J.Margesson, Captain D.Watts, Dr. T.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.Merriman, F. B.Wells, S. R.
Fraser, Captain IanMonsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Colonel J.C. T.Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Ganzoni, Sir JohnMorrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveWindsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Gee, Captain R.Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir JosephWinterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamNelson, Sir FrankWise, Sir Fredric
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnNeville, R. J.Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Goff, Sir ParkNicholson, O. (Westminster)Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Gower, Sir RobertNuttall, Ellis
Gretton, Colonel JohnO'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. HughTELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Grotrian, H. BrentOrmsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamCapt. Hacking and Major Cope.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Hayes, John HenryRose, Frank H.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Scurr, John
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHirst, G. H.Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Barr, J.Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Sitch, Charles H.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Broad, F. A.John, William (Rhondda, West)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Buchanan, G.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Stamford, T. W.
Cape, ThomasJones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Stephen, Campbell
Charleton, H. C.Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Sutton, J. E.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Tinker, John Joseph
Crawfurd, H. E.Kelly, W. T.Varley, Frank B.
Dalton, HughKennedy, T.Wallhead, Richard C.
Day, Colonel HarryKirkwood, D.Warne, G. H.
Duckworth, JohnLawson, John JamesWatson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J.R.(Aberavon)Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Fenby, T. D.Mackinder, W.Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Gibbins, JosephMacLaren, AndrewWelsh, J. C.
Gillett, George M.Maxton, JamesWestwood, J.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Morris, R. H.Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Murnin, H.Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Grundy, T. W.Oliver, George HaroldWilliams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Paling, W.Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Windsor, Walter
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Hardle, George D.Potts, John S.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Harris, Percy A.Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Sir Godfrey Collins and Sir Robert
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonRiley, BenHutchison.
Hayday, ArthurRobinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

With regard to the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Benn), in page 19, line 4, at the end, to insert

s.d.
"For every pound of silk contained therein79
For every pound of artificial silk contained therein36."
it is an Amendment of substance, but I do not think that as it stands it will read. I take it that the hon. and gallant Member means to leave out the whole of the paragraph and substitute these words?

Captain BENN:

There is a consequential Amendment on the Paper to leave out the rest of the paragraph so that it makes a cohesive whole.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

I do not think it matters much either way.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Benn) not wish to move his Amendment?

Captain BENN:

I would have preferred my hon. Friend (Sir E. Hamilton) to move this Amendment, but if I am to lose my right I will move it, and my hon. Friend can speak later. I beg to move, in page 19, line 4, at the end, to insert

s.d.
"For every pound of silk contained therein79
For every pound of artificial silk contained therein36"
You, Sir, have been good enough to say that it is an Amendment of some substance, and I suggest to the Committee that there has been some point of relevancy in every Amendment that has been moved. No Amendment of a purely dialectical kind has been put forward. This Amendment touches a very big issue in the Bill, and I propose to lay before the Committee some of the grounds of our objection to it. The first proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to tax silk. In the Budget speech, which we remember so well, he said that he found in silk a vehicle for carrying a great part of the public burdens and public expenditure, and we understood from that speech that we were giving him permission to tax silk. But as we proceed with these Schedules we find that under the cover of this tax on silk he is taxing all sorts of other things. He is putting a tax of 5s. 3d. per pound on tin imported in a certain form into this country. The tax on silk has become a tax on tin. Under this part of the Bill we are taxing a vast variety of articles. The first proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was this, that whereas in the case of tissues and yarns he was taxing silk itself, and imposing a tax on the weight of the silk, when it came to articles wholly or mainly made of artificial silk, any article which had a trace or scintilla of artificial silk he altered the scale of his duties, and instead of proposing a duty on the weight of the silk which he could easily have done and which he was authorised to do by the Budget speech, he imposes a duty on the whole article. If his lynx-eyed officials have detected the least bit of silk in an article then the Chancellor says you must pay 33⅓ per cent. duty on the total value of the whole article because of the crime of silk being found on the premises. That was the first proposal in the well thought out Budget which balanced things and which no doubt was the result of anxious thought for many months before. That proposal was so fantastic that it did not survive two days' public examination. Just think what that meant. It meant that an article, say a motor-car in which there was found anything in the nature of silk would have to pay a duty of 33⅓ per cent. on the total value of the car if imported into this country. I do not know much about the price of cars. When a man imports a motor-car—

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

There is no such proposal in the Bill. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is talking about the original resolution; it has not materialised in the Bill.

Captain BENN:

The earlier proposal was simple, although it was fantastic. It could be dealt with shortly; the proposal in the Bill is divided into three heads and it is necessary to deal with them in three different sections of my speech. We will take lines 5 to 9 first. It is under this that my remarks about motor-cars fall. The proposal is that an article being found to contain some silk is to be dutiable to the extent of one-third of the cost. The tax might be 10,000 or 20,000 per cent. the value of the silk, the duty being levied upon the total value of the article to which the silk is attached. If the motor-car of which I am speaking had lamps with electric wire insulated by silk—[Interruption]. I have an example of copper wire so insulated.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

The value of the wound wire is not the value of the car.

Captain BENN:

I do not understand the point of Order. I invite you to read the Proposition— Where the value of the silk … does not exceed five per cent—

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

I thought the hon. and gallant Gentleman began with the first paragraph.

Captain BENN:

I understand the complaint is that I was proceeding too fast. I have rather anticipated what I had to say later on. Of course the motor car example, which was brought under No. 3, was an exaggerated example, but not an impossible example. I have heard from traders who have to deal with customers. It is the regulations they dislike and the forms which are imposed upon them by officials who simply go by the letter of the Act and have not a great deal of consideration. They do their best, but they are governed by regulations and cannot be as considerate and helpful as they would wish to be. I do not pursue it as a reductio ad absurdum. If the motor car is worth £2,000 and the silk on the electric wire is worth 1s. (that is less than 5 per cent. of the value of the article) under this Schedule it is to be taxable at an amount equal to 2 per cent. of the value of the article. The tax would be £40.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

A motor car under the McKenna Duties, which was a foreign import, would be charged a duty of 33⅓ per cent. and, in respect of the silk content, it would be charged at the rate of 2 per cent. But by the principle we are following the duty of 2 per cent. Would be swamped in the other duty of 33⅓ per cent. and this duty on the silk content would have no more relation to the price the consumer would have to pay than the speech of the hon. and gallant Member has to any practical effect.

Captain BENN:

The Chancellor of the Exchequer has raised an interesting point. After all, it is no joke to traders that these tariffs should be imposed upon them. I took the case of a motor car dutiable under Section 3, and where does one find that it shall not be doubly dutiable as well.

Mr. GUINNESS:

The hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot have read the rest of the Bill. Under Part III., paragraph 2, he will find the answer.

Captain BENN:

I think I am mistaken and that the Financial Secretary is right. He directs my attention to the new provision under Paragraph 2. That is so, I was quite wrong.

Mr. ERSKINE:

On a point of Order. Would it not be better for the hon. and gallant Gentleman first to make himself conversant with what is in the Bill?

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

I think I could hardly enforce as a rule of Order that no Member should speak unless conversant with the subject.

Captain BENN:

No doubt if I transgress the rules of Order I shall be promptly called upon to conform. I apologise to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the case of the McKenna Duties. He has put in a provision to provide against double duty. Let me take the case of clothing or shoes, or I will take the case of the making-up trade. The effect of this is that if they import an article which has silk in it they do not pay the ordinary tax on silk but a percentage on the whole value of the article. They have to pay on a number of other things which are attached to the form of the article. I will give the right hon. Gentleman an example of silk-covered copper wire. Eight pounds of silk wound on copper wire would have to pay not 40s. as it would have to do if it came in unused for this purpose, but 340s. That is one illustration. There are a great many others to show how, when you start levying a Duty on the total value of the article instead of on the silk content, you put yourself into considerable difficulty. This side of the question is one of the most difficult, for the reasons I have stated. It does affect a great many trades and a great many people who are importing made-up articles with a small silk content. Fancy goods and many trades are concerned. It presents great difficulty, and I do not understand why the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not decided to tax the made-up article on the silk content and why he should insist on the tax being levied on the total value of the article. If he is doing it because he wants to make the tax protective in a general sort of way—protecting the hosiery trade or the chocolate box trade or the copper wire trade or everything else that can be brought in—it is a sound argument which can be understood, but it is not a silk tax. It is Protection introduced by the back door. Although later on we shall have something to say about the change which the Chancellor is making himself by an Amendment on the rates, I leave that for the time being and merely direct attention to the very heavy rate of Duty that is imposed on silk, because of the taxing of silk, if it comes in the form of a made-up article, not on the silk content, but on the total value of the article of which it forms part.

Photo of Sir Henry Slesser Sir Henry Slesser , Leeds South East

I do not think I can be blamed for having spoken much in these Debates, but I do think this is a point of considerable substance. I want to suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that there really must be some minimum at which point the amount of artificial silk or real silk in the commodity becomes so small that there should be no tax on the article. As I read the Schedule which the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) has just referred to, although artificial silk might be one or even a half or a quarter per cent. of the total value of the article, an amount equal to two per cent, of the value of the article would be imposed, so that you actually might get a smaller percentage of artificial silk in the commodity than the amount of duty. I suggest, therefore, that there should be some minimum, even if it is only one per cent., at which it is said that the amount of silk is so small that it is absurd to tax it as an artificial silk article at all. You have declining degrees of artificial silk, but instead of the last column coming down to a minimum of artificial silk it comes down to nothing at all. The first thing is "exceeding 20 per cent.," the second "exceeding 5 per cent.," and the third "does not exceed 5 per cent." which might be so small as to be a thousandth part of the whole. It really becomes nonsense to say that if a person picks up one thread of artificial silk in a large article, that that article shall be taxed two per cent. I do ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether there should not be some minimum below which a mere fragment of artificial silk should not subject the article to taxation. It is not in the interests of anybody that the Customs authorities can pick out a sixteenth, a hundredth or a thousandth part of artificial silk in an article and say that the whole article shall be subject to the two per cent. tax. Apart from anything else, you will have endless litigation on this matter. People will say the artificial silk is so small that it cannot be said to be a part of the article at all. Other people will say it is part of the article, and you will have endless disputes of that sort. No advocate of the tax, I think, would not be prepared to say that there must not be some minimum limit below which the placing of artificial silk into the article should exempt the article from duty. There is no relation between the amount of duty and the article when you fall below five per cent. It is really absurd, and I do appeal to have this matter reconsidered.

Mr. GUINNESS:

The object of the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn), although he did not really deal with that side of it in detail, is to substitute a specific rate of duty on made-up goods for the ad valorem rate which is proposed in the Bill.

Captain BENN:

Yes, on the silk.

2.0 A.M.

Mr. GUINNESS:

At first sight that seems to be an attractive simplification, but if he will consider the matter more closely he will find that his proposal is absolutely unworkable, because most of these made-up goods would be destroyed if they were subject to the weight test of their silk content. It is possible to get a rough-and-ready idea of the value of the silk content as compared with the value of the rest of the materials, but when you charge your duty by weight you would find it absolutely impossible to deal with the import of made-up articles. Are you going to take the silk off the umbrella to weigh it separately from the frame and the stick? Are you going to tear the lining out of a felt hat and weigh that. Remember, too, that, if you do that, you get into the difficulty of charging an infinitesimal rate on the expensive made-up goods in proportion to their silk content when you compare it with the heavier rates on the articles of a lower price. The objection to the particular figure which the hon. Member has mentioned—the same figure as for tissue—is that it would be extremely unfair to the British producer, because the British producer has to use dutiable material, and in working up these materials he necessarily is faced by a considerable amount of loss or waste. The foreigner would have an overwhelming advantage if he could bring his silk product in here and not be charged. The British producer ought to take account not only of the silk in the article but the silk which, in the process of manufacture, was lost. The hon. Member for South-East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser) suggested that there should be a minimum rate. It would be very unfair to the British producer if he were not able to get the same advantage. However little silk he had in his goods it would be liable to duty. But I do not think that

Division No. 174.]AYES.[2.5 a.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Hayday, ArthurRiley, Ben
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Hayes, John HenryRobinson, W.C. (Yorks, W.R., Elland)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Scurr, John
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHenderson, T. (Glasgow)Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Barr, J.Hirst, G. H.Sitch, Charles H.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Broad, F. A.Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Buchanan, G.John, William (Rhondda, West)Stamford, T. W.
Cape, ThomasJohnston, Thomas (Dundee)Stephen, Campbell
Charleton, H. C.Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merioneth)Sutton, J. E.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Tinker, John Joseph
Crawfurd, H. E.Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Varley, Frank B.
Dalton, HughKelly, W. T.Wallhead, Richard C.
Day, Colonel HarryKennedy, T.Warne, G. H.
Duckworth, JohnKirkwood, D.Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Lawson, John JamesWatts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Fenby, T. D.Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Gibbins, JosephMackinder, W.Welsh, J. C.
Gillett, George M.MacLaren, AndrewWestwood, J.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Maxton, JamesWilkinson, Ellen C.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Morris, R. H.Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Grundy, T. W.Murnin, H.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Oliver, George HaroldWilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Paling, W.Windsor, Walter
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Hardie, George D.Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Harris, Percy A.Potts, John S.Sir Godfrey Collins and Sir R.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonRichardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Hutchison.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelBrass, Captain W.Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Alexander, Sir Win. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Brassey, Sir LeonardChristie, J. A.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveChurchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Briscoe, Richard GeorgeCobb, Sir Cyril
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Brittain, Sir HarryCochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Brocklebank, C. E. R.Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Barnett, Major Sir Richard W.Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Cope, Major William
Barnston, Major Sir HarryBrown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Courtauld, Major J. S.
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Burman, J. B.Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.
Betterton, Henry B.Butler, Sir GeoffreyCraig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Campbell, E. T.Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Blundell, F. N.Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Boothby, R. J. G.Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Bourne, Captain Robert CroftChapman, Sir S.Curzon, Captain Viscount

these extreme cases will arise. I believe that a specific duty, where the matter is examined in detail, will be found to be absolutely unworkable.

Photo of Sir Robert Hamilton Sir Robert Hamilton , Orkney and Shetland

Let me give one instance of how the tax will work out. A dress is made of the value of 21 guineas, and there is five guineas' worth of silk. The value of the silk and the dress is 51 guineas. The duty on that is 33⅓ per cent. Seven guineas on five guineas' worth of silk. It is not a tax on silk, but on the garment. What is going to be the effect on the garment trade? When once you begin to interfere with a tax of this sort the difficulty is to see where it will end. One thing is perfectly obvious—the garment trade in this country is going to be affected very seriously indeed.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided Ayes, 80; Noes, 174.

Dalkeith, Earl ofHoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. Q.Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Remer, J. R.
Dean, Arthur WellesleyHolbrook, sir Arthur RichardRhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Dixey, A. C.Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Doyle, Sir N. GrattanHopkins, J. W. W.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Drewe, C.Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Eden, Captain AnthonyHudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Edmondson, Major A. J.Huntingfield, LordSamuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Elliot, Captain Walter E.Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & p'bl's)Sandeman, A. Stewart
Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithIliffe, Sir Edward M.Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Everard, W. LindsayJacob, A. E.Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Falle, Sir Bertram G.King, Captain Henry DouglasShaw, Lt. -Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew. W)
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Lamb, J. Q.Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Fermoy, LordLister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipShepperson, E. W.
Fielden, E. B.Loder, J. de V.Skelton, A. N.
Finburgh, S.Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanSlaney, Major P. Kenyon
Fleming, D. P.Lumley, L. R.Sprot, Sir Alexander
Ford, P. J.Lynn, Sir Robert J.Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Fraser, Captain IanMacintyre, IanStanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Macmillan, Captain H.Storry Deans, R.
Ganzoni, Sir JohnMacRobert, Alexander M.Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Gee, Captain R.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Strickland, Sir Gerald
Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamManningham-Buller, sir MervynStuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMerriman, F. B.Styles, Captain H. Walter
Glyn, Major R. G. C.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Goff, Sir ParkMoore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Gower, Sir RobertMorrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveTinne, J. A.
Grotrian, H. BrentNail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir JosephWard, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Nelson, Sir FrankWaterhouse, Captain Charles
Gunston, Captain D. W.Neville, R. J.Watts, Dr. T.
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Wells, S. R.
Hammersley, S. S.Nicholson, O. (Westminster)Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Hanbury, C.Nuttall, EllisWilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Harland, A.O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. HughWindsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Harrison, G. J. C.Ormsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamWinterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hartington, Marquess ofPenny, Frederick GeorgeWise, Sir Fredric
Haslam, Henry C.Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Hawke, John AnthonyPeto, G. (Somerset, Frome)Wood, E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Pielou, D. P.Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)Pilcher, G.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.Power, Sir John CecilTELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel AsshetonMr. F. C. Thomson and Captain
Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Radford, E. A.Margesson.
Hilton, Cecil

Photo of Sir George Gillett Sir George Gillett , Finsbury

I beg to move, in page 19, lines 6 and 7, column 2, to leave out the words "thirty-three and one-third," and to insert instead thereof the word "ten."

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy Chairman, has it not been the custom, when dealing with these Amendments, to take them in sections as you have done previously? I notice you have taken silk raw, yarn, artificial silk and then the things which are sectionalised so as to leave out lines from 5 to 13. May I have your ruling as to whether that has not been the method adopted?

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

That has been the method adopted, but the whole question should have been raised to the Amendment made. If the hon. Member wishes to speak on this question I shall allow him to do it on this Amendment.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

In the first item the reference is not only to silk tissues, but to silk which may be included in any article imported into this country, say, in the way of ladies' handbags.

Photo of Sir George Gillett Sir George Gillett , Finsbury

The object of my Amendment, which is the first of a series, deals with the articles made wholly or in part of silk or artificial silk. I fully realise the object of the Chancellor of taking revenue but to a considerable extent it would not be fulfilled. All our desire is that any temptation to continue these duties may be to a certain extent taken away. The chief point which really underlies our proposals is our objection to the principle involved in the Customs duties on articles made only from silk and I should like to point out, in the first place, that in connection with silk there is a matter that is not sufficiently appreciated and that is that it is bound to have an effect on other countries and it is especially unfortunate in the case of silk that the countries affected are nations very intimately connected with us in the last war. However, that is one of the effects of any protective tariff and it is especially noticeable in this case. The second reason is that I think that this is a step backward. We have seen some of the Continental empires divided up into smaller countries which have started on Protection tariffs to prevent the free flow of trade. We are simply following a policy which has been condemned in many quarters. To investigate all the articles which may have any silk in them beyond a certain percentage would involve a needless amount of work, and would impose a burden upon trade. That is really the underlying principle of these proposals. That is certainly the object I have in view in opposing them.

Photo of Mr Robert Richardson Mr Robert Richardson , Houghton-le-Spring

I wish to draw the attention of the Committee to the unfair incidence that the whole of this part of Schedule 2 involves. By the incidence of this Schedule you are going on increasing that taxation on those less able to bear it because they cannot afford to buy pure silk. You take an article that has 20 per cent. of silk in it. Immediately you increase the duty from 33⅓ per cent. to no less than 166⅔ per cent. on the silk contained in the article. Some of us working people have daughters—and some of them good looking—and we are anxious to make them appear respectable. It will not be possible if this taxation, this increase in the cost of living, is to be put on the shoulders of the workers and it is going to cause a great deal of trouble for the Government. I am fairly convinced that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has gone out to create for himself a large amount of trouble and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be well advised to withdraw this duty. It cannot be worked; he must know that. If he has made a mistake let him be man enough to own up now. It is absolutely impossible.

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

This is a very excellent Amendment. This 33⅓ per cent. duty is equivalent to a protective tariff of a very high order. Very few countries go in for a duty on this scale. I was particularly interested in the example the Financial Secretary to the Treasury gave of the umbrella. It was the best illustration of the impossibility of carrying out the scheme of drawbacks. The great point the Chancellor of the Exchequer made with reference to a motor car, on second consideration, proved to be not a very exact one, because although it might apply to the ordinary private car which will be covered by the McKenna Duties, it seemed to be forgotten that heavy cars and omnibuses do not come under the category of the McKenna Duties. I can give the Financial Secretary a great number of other instances. There is the case of shoes with silk linings or the shoes with the silk tops. There is the hat brought in from Italy. Thousands of cheap felt hats come from Italy which have not only silk linings but silk bands round the hats. These will be subject to the five per cent. duty. It will not affect the rich people. The rich people have a habit of going abroad both for the winter and the summer, and on their way they can go to Paris. They will be able to escape the duties levied by this Government on silk and will be able to buy not only one dress but two dresses. But the working women who want a little silk will have to pay a tax of 33⅓ per cent. If the Financial Secretary wants to get this Schedule tonight let him accept this Amendment.

Mr. GUINNESS:

This Amendment is one of a series designed to cover the percentage payable under the ad valorem scale and to reduce the range on which each case of the percentage applies. This, for instance, reduces the percentage of 33⅓ per cent. It would be entirely inconsistent with Part I of Schedule 2 which we have already passed because it would mean that many of these goods imported made up, and therefore subject to ad valorem, duty, would pay less for the silk components than the corresponding rates of specific duty. Where would that land the home producer? It would mean that he with his duty-paid articles would have to compete with articles which had come in at a lower rate. It would absolutely destroy our making-up trade in this country. The hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Richardson) mentioned a possible hardship it might inflict on girls of the working classes who might find their opportunities for adornment decreasing. I do not think that arises under this part of the Schedule at all. They do not buy imported articles made up of silk.

Photo of Miss Ellen Wilkinson Miss Ellen Wilkinson , Middlesbrough East

They buy large quantities of these articles that are imported—bourrette, for instance.

Mr. GUINNESS:

That is not a made-up article. If we accepted this Amendment we should be putting a heavier tax on articles of a more reasonable price and allowing these expensive dresses to come in at a lower figure than they can be made by the manufacturer here. That would be to the disadvantage of the poorer classes of the community as compared with those who can afford these expensive articles.

Photo of Mr Richard Wallhead Mr Richard Wallhead , Merthyr Tydfil Merthyr

There is one phase of taxation which I have not heard discussed yet. I am one of those who believe that in proportion to their income the poorer people of this country are taxed more than any other section. They are taxed, not only so far as quantity is concerned, they are also taxed badly in regard to values, because these ad valorem duties impose a tax on quantities rather than on values. A good illustration is the case of tea. The man who is rich can get the choicest brands by paying the same tax as the man who has to be content with the sweepings of the warehouse. I believe this tax is going to hit the poorer section of the community. The illustrations that have been given have proved the entire foolishness of the whole thing, and if the Government were wise, and wished to avoid a great deal of trouble in the future, they would drop the tax entirely.

Photo of Mr George Hardie Mr George Hardie , Glasgow Springburn

I should like to say one word on this subject. Articles coming in from America may contain what we call artificial silk, but what in America is not called artificial silk. How are you going to determine what is artificial silk which comes here in the lining of hats and on umbrellas? And unless you take off the cover of the umbrella how are you to judge the whole weight of this so-called artificial silk? What is your scientific method of determining whether an article contains 1 per cent. or 5 per cent. of artificial silk? How are you going to determine the silk contents of the lining of an ordinary bag?

Mr. GUINNESS:

By value, not by weight.

Photo of Mr George Hardie Mr George Hardie , Glasgow Springburn

Exactly; and now we have the explanation which brings me to what I wanted to say. You are not going to tax silk at all. The hon. and gallant Member has admitted that he is not going to tax the umbrella or bag, but its value. That is the whole defect in the proposal. We have not yet had a definition of artificial silk—and we are going to tax values. For the first time in the history of British Budgets we are going to tax a name, not an article. You say that you are not going to determine what is in the handbag, but that you are going to tax its Value. Some hon. Members have tried to give a definition of artificial silk, and they have said that certain elements have to be extracted and again solidified. But it really does not matter what you are going to do. Men are constantly working upon these things and we are going to have an article produced very different from what is now called artificial silk. I know a gentleman who has produced from glass an article which it is very difficult for those in the silk trade to distinguish from pure silk. He does not call the product artificial silk. He calls it something else. We are told that there is to be a Commission to determine whether a thing is to be called artificial silk or not. You are not taxing an article at all; you are taxiing a name. Up to now we have always taxed something tangible. If you are going to have something which may have five or a dozen basic raw materials, then you are bound to confess you are taxiing a name. I would like the Financial Secretary to tell us what he defines as artificial silk.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

I was interested to hear the Financial Secretary state they would determine by value the tax on a lady's handbag or umbrella. The lining of the handbag, or the covering of the umbrella, may contain three or five per cent. of silk. It is totally impossible for the Financial Secretary, or anybody else, to determine the amount of silk in the cloth unless it has gone through an analysis. There is a rather significant feature about the Clause we are discussing. If the Chancellor will look at the Bill, he will see what, to my mind, is a clear case of anomaly. If he will look at the bottom paragraph he will see that where the volume of silk, or artificial silk, does not exceed five per cent. of the value of the article it is taxed 2 per cent. That is to say, a material with four per cent. will be faxed one-half the value, which is two per cent. If the material contains 19 per cent. it will be valued at 10 per cent. In the first paragraph the values are changed entirely and, if it contains 21 per cent. silk, it will be taxed 33⅓ per cent. I would like the Financial Secretary to go into these figures. They are a complete anomaly as one goes down the list. The 21 per cent. silk in the material will be taxed 33⅓ per cent., the 19 per cent. will be taxed 10 per cent., and the four per cent. will be taxed two per cent. There is no relationship in these figures. They should be gone into by the Treasury before the Report stage.

Photo of Mr Duncan Graham Mr Duncan Graham , Hamilton

As a non-expert, I would like to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the answers to the questions which have been put by my two hon. Friends. I think my hon. Friend for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) put a few questions to which we are entitled to have an answer, particularly when there are so many experts on this particular question on the other side of the House who are evidently interested in the development of the argument which has taken place during the last half-hour or so. We are not animated by a desire to carry on discussion, or carry on the business to any reasonable length.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I apologise for being absent. Being absent, I do not gather the exact nature of the two questions the hon. Member wished me to answer.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

May I put one of them to the Chancellor of the Exchequer? In paragraph 3 it states that where silk exceeds 20 per cent. of the value of the article there will be a duty of 33⅓ per cent. The next paragraph reverses the position entirely. If it is 19 per cent., it is only taxed 10 per cent. The values are changed.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

All this may be summed up in the repetition of the sombre but inevitable truth that governs so much of our mundane affairs: We must draw the line somewhere.

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

If a lady goes to Paris and buys a dress but does not wear it—[Interruption].

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

If they do not wear clothes, they will come under other classes of our legislation.

Photo of Mr George Hardie Mr George Hardie , Glasgow Springburn

I want an answer from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am sure he enjoys an all-night sitting. In his absence the Financial Secretary made a certain statement.

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

This matter has been debated already.

Photo of Mr George Hardie Mr George Hardie , Glasgow Springburn

My hon. Friend rose and put the point that a certain question had been put in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's absence, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he would like to have this question repeated. I have risen to ask how the silk percentage is to be determined in the case of 1,000 handbags that came in with silk linings. I was told that the tax was levied on the value of the article. Are we taxing the article, or are we taxing the name of an article?

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

The hon. Member has not the right to make the same speech twice.

Photo of Mr George Hardie Mr George Hardie , Glasgow Springburn

I am not making a speech: I am stating a question, and I want the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tell me what he has in his mind as a definition of artificial silk. I want to know what is to be his definition? I pointed out how every day someone was making what was called artificial silk from entirely different basic materials, and I am contending that you are putting a duty on a name and not on an article.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

Broadly speaking, our definition of artificial silk has followed the same line as that of the United States of America. Artificial silk is artificial silk, by whatever name known and by whatever process manufactured.

Photo of Mr George Hardie Mr George Hardie , Glasgow Springburn

That admits my point that we are taxing a name and not an article. Are you aware that this is the first time in the history of British Budgets that a Chancellor of the Exchequer has ever put a tax on a name and not on an article?

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

If we pursue this we shall get into the region of metaphysics. The hon. Member does not distinguish between perfectly well-known objects and their expression in terms of human speech. Every Chancellor, in all times, has taxed articles and has taxed them by name.

Photo of Mr George Hardie Mr George Hardie , Glasgow Springburn

But now you are trying to tax a name without being able to define the article. It is breaking every precedent to try to put a duty on a name.

Mr. ERSKINE:

On a point of Order. I have taken the trouble to take a note of what the hon. Member has said, and this is—

Photo of Mr David Kirkwood Mr David Kirkwood , Dumbarton District of Burghs

I demand of him to produce the notes.

Mr. ERSKINE:

I have taken a special note of the remarks of the hon. Gentleman, and he has made the same remark four times to my certain knowledge.

Division No. 175.]AYES.[2.55 a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelFoxcroft, Captain C. T.Nelson, Sir Frank
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Fraser, Captain IanNeville, R. J.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Applin, colonel R. V. K.Ganzoni, Sir JohnNicholson, O. (Westminster)
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Gee, Captain R.Nuttall, Ellis
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamO'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Barnett, Major Sir R. W.Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir JohnOrmsby-Gore, Hon. William
Barnston, Major Sir HarryGlyn, Major R. G. C.Penny, Frederick George
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Goff, Sir ParkPercy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Betterton, Henry B.Gower, Sir RobertPeto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Grotrian, H. BrentPielou, D. P.
Blundell, F. N.Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Pilcher, G.
Boothby, R. J. G.Gunston, Captain D. W.Power, Sir John Cecil
Brass, Captain W.Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Brassey, Sir LeonardHammersley, S. S.Radford, E. A.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveHanbury, C.Reid, Captain A. S. C. (Warrington)
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeHarland, A.Remer, J. R.
Brittain, Sir HarryHarrison, G. J. C.Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Hartington, Marquess ofRoberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Haslam, Henry C.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Hawke, John AnthonyRussell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Burman, J. B.Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Butler, Sir GeoffreyHenderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Campbell, E. T.Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.Sandeman, A. Stewart
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)Hennessy, Major J. R. G.Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonHerbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Chapman, Sir S.Hilton, CecilShaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W)
Christie, J. A.Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHolbrook, Sir Arthur RichardShepperson, E. W.
Cobb, Sir CyrilHope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Hopkins, J. W. W.Sprot, Sir Alexander
Colfox, Major Wm. PhillipsHoward, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Courtauld, Major J. S.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.Huntingfield, LordStanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Storry Deans, R.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Iliffe, Sir Edward M.Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryInskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Strickland, Sir Gerald
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Jacob, A. E.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Curzon, Captain ViscountKing, Captain Henry DouglasStyles, Captain H. Walter
Dalkeith, Earl ofLamb, J. Q.Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipTasker, Major R. Inigo
Dean, A. W.Loder, J. de V.Tinne, J. A.
Dixey, A. C.Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard HarmonWaterhouse, Captain Charles
Doyle, Sir N. GrattanLumley, L. R.Watts, Dr. T.
Drewe, C.Lynn, Sir R. J.Wells, S. R.
Eden, Captain AnthonyMacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Williams, Com. c. (Devon, Torquay)
Edmondson, Major A. J.Macintyre, IanWilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Elliot, Captain Walter E.Macmillan, Captain H.Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel George
Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithMacRobert, Alexander M.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Wise, Sir Fredric
Everard, W. LindsayManningham-Buller, Sir MervynWood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Margesson, Captain D.Wood, E.(Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Fermoy, LordMerriman, F. B.Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Fielden, E. B.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Finburgh, S.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Fleming, D. P.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveMajor Cope and Mr. F. C. Thomson.
Ford, P. J.Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Benn. Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Broad, F. ACowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Buchanan, G.Crawfurd, H. E.
Ammon, Charles GeorgeCape, ThomasDalton, Hugh
Barr, J.Charleton, H. CDay, Colonel Harry

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

I also have been making a mental note, and I really must ask the hon. Member not to repeat the same thing.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 170; Noes, 80.

Duckworth, JohnJohnston, Thomas (Dundee)Sitch, Charles H.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Fenby, T. D.Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Gibbins, JosephJones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Stamford, T. W.
Gillett, George M.Kelly, W. T.Stephen, Campbell
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Kirkwood, D.Sutton, J. E.
Grenfell, O. R. (Glamorgan)Lawson, John JamesTinker, John Joseph
Grundy, T. W.Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Varley, Frank B.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Mackinder, W.Wallhead, Richard C.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)MacLaren, AndrewWatson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Maxton, JamesWatts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Hardie, George D.Morris, R. H.Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Harris, Percy A.Murnin, H.Welsh, J. C.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonOliver, George HaroldWestwood, J.
Hayday, ArthurPaling, W.Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Hayes, John HenryParkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Potts, John S.Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hirst, G. H.Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Windsor, Walter
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Riley, Ben
Hudson, J. H. HuddersfieldRobinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Scurr, JohnMr. T. Kennedy and Mr. Warne.
John, William (Rhondda, West)Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

Photo of Mr Henry Charleton Mr Henry Charleton , Leeds South

I beg to move in page 19, line 8, column 1, to leave out the word "twenty", and to insert instead thereof the word "sixty."

Division No. 176.]AYES.[3.5 a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelErskine, James Malcolm MonteithLoder, J. de V.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Everard, W. LindsayLumley, L. R.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Lynn, Sir Robert J.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Fermoy, LordMacdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Fielden, E. B.Macintyre, Ian
Barnett. Major Richard W.Finburgh, S.Macmillan, Captain H.
Barnston, Major Sir HarryFleming, D. P,MacRobert, Alexander M.
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Ford, P. J.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Betterton, Henry B.Foxcroft, Captain C. T.Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Fraser, Captain IanMerriman, F. B.
Blundell, F. N.Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Boothby, R. J. G.Ganzoni, Sir JohnMoore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Brass, Captain W.Gee, Captain R.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Brassey, Sir LeonardGibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamNail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveGilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnNelson, Sir Frank
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeGlyn, Major R. G. C.Neville, R. J.
Brittain, Sir HarryGoff, Sir ParkNewman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Gower, Sir RobertNicholson, O. (Westminster)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Grotrian, H. BrentNuttall, Ellis
Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Burman, J. B.Gunston, Captain D. W.Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Butler, Sir GeoffreyHacking, Captain Douglas H.Penny, Frederick George
Campbell, E. T.Hammersley, S. S.Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)Hanbury, C.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonHarrison, G. J. C.Pielou, D. P.
Chapman, Sir S.Hartington, Marquess ofPilcher, G.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Haslam, Henry C.Power, Sir John Cecil
Christie, J. A.Hawke, John AnthonyPownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHeadlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Radford, E. A.
Cobb, Sir CyrilHenderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.Remer, J. R.
Colfox, Major Wm. PhillipsHennessy, Major J. R. G.Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Cope, Major WilliamHerbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Courtauld, Major J. S.Hilton, CecilRuggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardSamuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryHope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Sandeman, A. Stewart
Crooksnank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Hopkins, J. W. W.Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Curzon, Captain ViscountHoward, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Dalkeith, Earl ofHudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Huntingfield, LordShaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel. (Renfrew, W)
Dean, A. W.Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Dixey, A. C.Iliffe, Sir Edward M.Shepperson, E. W.
Doyle, Sir N. GrattanInskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Drewe, C.Jacob, A. E.Sprot, Sir Alexander
Eden, Captain AnthonyKing, Captain Henry DouglasStanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Edmondson, Major A. J.Lamb, J. Q.Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Elliot, Captain Walter E.Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipStanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)

Question put, "That the word 'twenty' stand part of the Schedule."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 169; Noes, 80.

Storry Deans, R.Waterhouse, Captain CharlesWood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.Watts, Dr. T.Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Strickland, Sir GeraldWells, S R.Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Styles, Captain H. WalterWilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Sugden, Sir WilfridWindsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel GeorgeMr. F. C. Thomson and Captain
Tasker, Major R. InigoWinterton, Rt. Hon. EarlMargesson.
Tinne, J. A.Wise, Sir Fredric
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonRiley, Ben
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Hayday, ArthurRobinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)Scurr, John
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHenderson, T. (Glasgow)Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Barr, J.Hirst, G. H.Sitch, Charles H.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Broad, F. A.Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Buchanan, G.Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Stamford, T. W.
Cape, ThomasJohn, William (Rhondda, West)Stephen, Campbell
Charleton, H. C.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Sutton, J. E.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Tinker, John Joseph
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Varley, Frank B.
Crawfurd, H. E.Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Wallhead, Richard C.
Dalton, HughKelly, W. T.Warne, G. H.
Day, Colonel HarryKennedy, T.Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Duckworth, JohnKirkwood, D.Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Lawson, John JamesWebb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Fenby, T. D.MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Welsh, J. C.
Gibbins, JosephMackinder, W.Westwood, J.
Gillett, George M.MacLaren, AndrewWilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Maxton, JamesWilliams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Morris, R. H.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grundy, T. W.Murnin, H.Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Oliver, George HaroldWindsor, Walter
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Paling, W.
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Hardie, George D.Potts, John S.Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes.
Harris, Percy A,Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I beg to move, in page 19, line 9, column 1, to leave out the word "value," and to insert instead thereof the words "aggregate of the values of all the components."

In doing so I should like to raise a rather wider question and that is what is the interpretation among ourselves of the question of a reasonable hour. There was a very broad and at the same time a very clear understanding that the Schedule and Committee stage should be completed at a reasonable hour, since which certain other events have occurred, certain prolongations of discussion on the afternoon Debate. I quite agree that a reasonable hour should be considered as having been somewhat extended but still there it is—a broad understanding was come to that these matters should be disposed of at a reasonable hour. But I think I must invite from the Leader of the Opposition, who is heroically manning the trenches, for some further illustration of his ideas on this point.

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Aberavon

I am sure the Committee will believe me when I say that it is a most painful duty to me to be here at this most unseemly hour. The Chancellor referred to the change that took place by adding two Liberal Amendments which were not on the Paper and not contemplated when the bargain as to a reasonable hour was come to. He had not told us, when this arrangement was made that he was going to make this change in the agricultural Clause.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

Oh, yes, certainly, because when the discussion came up and I made this shocking disclosure, my idea was to put it on the Paper only in time for the Report stage and the right hon. Gentleman objected to it. I then said I would put it down to be in time to be discussed on Wednesday, therefore, I accelerated by putting it down to facilitate discussion at a time which was most agreeable. Then there was a further suggestion to put down the Amendment in order to give the fullest opportunity for debate, which I must say they have taken advantage of. All this is part of the understanding of a reasonable hour of the night.

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Aberavon

I really do not want to press the point. As a matter of fact, the observation I made at the time, which the Chancellor quoted against me yesterday, was that I warned him what the probable effect of the De-bate would be; but I think I am within the recollection of the Committee when I say that I did say that to me a reasonable hour was either a quarter-past 12 or, if that failed, six o'clock in the morning.

Captain BENN:

On this point, it is perfectly true that last night we forewent our right to move about 15 New Clauses and the Chancellor himself said that the New Clauses would involve a three days' Debate. It is also true that we undertook not to prolong and would prevent if we could any prolongation that would prevent the House meeting this day for prayers. So far as we are concerned, I think the right hon. Gentleman will admit that the Amendments we have moved have not been supported by any irrelevant or ineffective arguments so far as we are concerned, and we have only two others of substance on the Paper. If we can move these, we are quite prepared to expedite business. If hon. Gentlemen are prepared to sit till six o'clock, then I am quite agreeable. The right hon. Gentleman, I think, will admit—I would be grateful to him if he would—that the Amendments we have moved have been Amendments of substance.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

It is for the right hon. Gentleman who leads the Opposition to put his own construction on what he considers a reasonable hour. I cannot quarrel with the definition he chooses to make, but I would point out that we began on Monday night, and after prolonging the sitting steadily and continuing it again last night, it was in our power to use the strength of the great majority of Members who are in attendance upon the service of the House. We did not do that. We tried to come to an arrangement with the varying sections of the Opposition. I hope I shall not be saying anything offensive, but it is almost as difficult to come to an arrangement with China at the present time. When you have settled up with the Mukden War Lord you have missed the Christian General. I do not press the topic any further. You have allowed it to be developed upon the classic Motion, "That the Committee do report Progress and ask leave to sit again." I will address myself to the Amendment that is on the Paper in my name.

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Aberavon

I would like to add a sentence. I would quite seriously remind the Government of what I stated when this matter was discussed. My hon. Friends behind me are in a position which makes is quite impossible for them to get home after 12.30, and if they sit here until 2 or 3 o'clock they are stranded. I hope hon. Members opposite quite understand that.

Photo of Mr John Jones Mr John Jones , West Ham Silvertown

Speaking as one of the ordinary Members of the House who has to walk home 12 miles if kept here after 12 or pay a taxi fare of 30s. I am not anxious to stay here all night because I can say all I want to say before 11. But I do say, so far as I am concerned, that if we are kept here, I would rather stay here talking about things about which I know nothing than to have to walk 12 miles to Silvertown. I do know something about my own people, and they protest against this prolongation of tongue and jaw. One thing upon which there ought to be a tax is jaw. We have no private motor-cars to take us home. I do not grudge them the right. I want to see the day come when all the people will be able to have motor cars.

Photo of Mr John Whitley Mr John Whitley , Halifax

The hour and the occasion have led me into a serious dereliction of duty. To allow the discussion to proceed is entirely out of order.

Photo of Mr John Jones Mr John Jones , West Ham Silvertown

I never was in order yet.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

This Amendment is the leading Amendment of a series of five Amendments which deal with the same point. It is not a point of principle; it is purely one of definition. We are dealing here with the importation of made-up goods. We are imposing an ad valorem duty on made-up goods, and we are varying that duty in accordance with the silk contents in those goods. There are two points to be considered, each involving the application of a series of percentages. There is the question of the percentage of the silk content which depends on whether the percentage is to be calculated in relation to the aggregate value of the component parts of the article—the cloth, the leather, or whatever it may be added together—or ought it to be calculated upon the made-up value of the article. We have definitely decided that, in calculating the proportion of the silk content in the value of the article it is to be based upon the relation between the silk content and the aggregate value of the component parts, and not upon the style or fashion value which could be given to those component parts when assembled by the skill and art of human beings in the finished article. Thus the duty proceeds as set out in the Schedule in three stages.

Photo of Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence , Leicester West

Do I understand from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it applies in both columns or only applies in the first column.

Photo of Mr Horace Crawfurd Mr Horace Crawfurd , Walthamstow West

The right hon. Gentleman says that these Amendments are mere matters of definition and do not raise any point of substance. May I put my question in a form which may conceivably appeal to Members opposite. Take for instance a Paris frock to be worn at Ascot. The Chancellor used the figure of £40. My calculation would be a little higher. Let me assume that the frock would cost £50, that it contains £2 worth of silk, and that the aggregate value of the component parts is £10. If the value of the silk is £2 0s. 1d. that article comes into the 33⅓ per cent. category, and the tax would be over £16.

Photo of Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence , Leicester West

I understand that the Chancellor does not propose to change the word value of the article in the second column of this Schedule. I suggest that if he is going to change it in the first column he should change it in the second, otherwise he will get a very considerable duty, and a very improper duty.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

No. The hon. Member has fallen into an error, and he seeks by his counsel to lead us into an absurdity. The object of the first column is to fix the relation of the silk to the total value of the article. That is achieved. The second column only prescribes the amount that would be levied on an article in regard to which the relation has been so fixed.

Photo of Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence , Leicester West

The Chancellor gave us £4 as the value of the component parts and £40 as the value of the finished article. The silk may be, say, £2. Therefore if you are going to charge 33⅓ per cent. on the finished article you would be charging £13. Surely he does not propose on a £2 article to put a tax of £13?

Captain BENN:

One can say in a sentence what all this means. Why this Amendment was moved with so much dialectics by the Chancellor I do not know, but it is only another step in the road to full Protection. That is why things which are liable to a 10 per cent. duty are being pushed into the 33⅓ per cent. duty. That is the whole story. The fact is the Chancellor has bought the support of a number of silk industries by promising them protection.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

The whole effect of this series of Amendments is mitigation.

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Aberavon

How can it be mitigation? In calculating whether the high rate is to be paid or the low rate it is not the full value of the article that has to be taken into consideration, but its partial value. It is not 20 per cent. of the article, but 20 per cent. of a portion of the price of the article, and when you reach 20 per cent. as part of the price of the article then you impose a tax of 33⅓ per cent. on the whole value of the article. Instead of being mitigation it is a substantial increase in the rate of protection. And when you have reached 33⅓ per cent. duty on the full value of the article that might itself amount to more than the cost price of the materials which you are taxing. That certainly is a most astounding proposal, and one which we shall certainly oppose.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

If you push the tax beyond a certain point in regard to a particular article the reaction is obvious. If an importer feels that his article is likely to be unfairly treated and pay an excessive duty, then all he has to do is to send the silk over separately, and the other materials separately, and the finishing process is done in this country.

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Aberavon

Is not this the meaning of that: that a straw hat the lining of which is nominally taxed under this Bill? By this process, if the silk goes beyond a certain proportion, then it is not the silk that is to be taxed but the straw hat. This is not, therefore, for the purposes of revenue. It is protection against the importation of straw hats.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

There appears to be no connection between paragraphs 1 and 2 in this Schedule. If the articles specified in paragraph 1 contain 21 per cent. of silk, then it pays this duty of 33⅓ per cent., but according to the next paragraph, if it has 19 per cent. of silk the tax is reduced from 33⅓ per cent. to 10 per cent., a reduction of 23⅓ per cent. for a 2 per cent. reduction of material. The whole thing is out of proportion, and what the Chancellor was thinking about in pass-

Division No. 177.]AYES.[3.40 a.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonPotts, John S.
Adamson, w. M. (Staff., Cannock)Hayday, ArthurRichardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Hayes, John HenryRiley, Ben
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHenderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Robinson, W.C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Barr, J.Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Scurr, John
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Hirst, G. H.Sitch, Charles H.
Broad, F. A.Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Buchanan, G.Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Cape, ThomasHutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Stamford, T. W.
Charleton, H. C.John, William (Rhondda, West)Stephen, Campbell
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Sutton, J. E.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Tinker, John Joseph
Crawfurd, H. E.Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Varley, Frank B.
Dalton, HughJones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Wallhead, Richard C.
Day, Colonel HarryKelly, W. T.Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Duckworth, JohnKirkwood, D.Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)Lawson, John JamesWebb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Fenby, T. D.MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Welsh, J. C.
Gibbins, JosephMackinder, W.Westwood, J.
Gillett, George M.MacLaren, AndrewWilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Maxton, JamesWilliams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Morris, R. H.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grundy, T. W.Murnin, H.Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Oliver, George HaroldWindsor, Walter
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Paling, W.
Hardie, George D.Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Harris, Percy A.Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Mr. T. Kennedy and Mr. Warne.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelDavies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Dean, Arthur WellesleyHogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Dixey, A. C.Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Doyle, Sir N. GrattanHope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Drewe, C.Hopkins, J. W. w.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Eden, Captain AnthonyHoward, Captain Hon. Donald
Barnett, Major Sir RichardEdmondson, Major A. J.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Barnston, Major Sir HarryElliot, Captain Walter E.Huntingfield, Lord
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithHutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)
Betterton, Henry B.Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Blundell, F. N.Everard, W. LindsayInskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Boothby, R. J. G.Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Jacob, A. E.
Brass, Captain W.Fermoy, LordKing, Captain Henry Douglas
Brassey, Sir LeonardFielden, E. B.Lamb, J. Q.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveFleming, D. P.Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeFord, P. J.Loder, J. de V.
Brittain, Sir HarryFoxcroft, Captain C. T.Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Fraser, Captain IanLumley, L. R.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Lynn, Sir Robert J.
Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Ganzoni, sir JohnMacdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Burman, J. B.Gee, Captain R.Macintyre, Ian
Butler, Sir GeoffreyGibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamMacmillan Captain H.
Campbell, E. T.Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMacRobert, Alexander M.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)Glyn, Major R. G. C.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonGoff, Sir ParkManningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Chapman, Sir S.Gower, Sir RobertMargesson, Captain D.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Grotrian, H. BrentMerriman, F. B.
Christie, J. A.Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerGunston, Captain D. W.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Cobb, Sir CyrilHammersley, S. S.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Hanbury, C.Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Colfox, Major Wm. PhillipsHarland, A.Nelson, Sir Frank
Cope, Major WilliamHarrison, G. J. C.Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Courtauld, Major J. S.Hartington, Marquess ofNuttall, Ellis
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.Haslam, Henry C.O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Hawke, John AnthonyOrmsby-Gore, Hon. William
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Penny, Frederick George
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryHenderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Curzon, Captain ViscountHerbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Pielou, D. P.
Dalkeith, Earl ofHilton, CecilPilcher, G.

ing an anomaly of this description passes my comprehension.

Question put, "That the word 'value' stand part of the Schedule."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 78; Noes, 165.

Power, Sir John CecilShaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)Tinne, J. A.
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel AsshetonShaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)Watts, Dr. T.
Radford, E. A.Shepperson, E. W.Wells, S. R.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)Slaney, Major P. KenyonWilliams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Remer, J. R.Sprot, Sir AlexanderWilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)Stanley, Lord (Fylde)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)Wise, Sir Fredric
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgewater)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)Strickland, Sir GeraldWood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Sandeman, A. StewartStyles, Captain H. Walter
Sanders, Sir Robert A.Sugden, Sir WilfridTELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.Tasker, Major R. InigoCaptain Douglas Hacking and Major Hennessy.
Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

Division No. 178.]AYES.[3.50 a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelFoxcroft, Captain C. T.Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Fraser, Captain IanNelson, Sir Frank
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Neville, R. J.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Ganzoni, Sir JohnNewman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Gee, Captain R.Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamNuttall, Ellis
Barnett, Major Sir RichardGilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir JohnO'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Barnston, Major Sir HarryGlyn, Major R. G. C.Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Goff, Sir ParkPenny, Frederick George
Betterton, Henry B.Gower, Sir RobertPercy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Grotrian, H. BrentPeto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Blundell, F. N.Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Pielou, D. P.
Boothby, R. J. G.Gunston, Captain D. W.Pilcher, G.
Brass, Captain W.Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Power, Sir John Cecil
Brassey, Sir LeonardHammersley, S. S.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveHanbury, C.Radford, E. A.
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeHarland, A.Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Brittain, Sir HarryHarrison, G. J. C.Remer, J. R.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Hartington, Marquess ofRhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Haslam, Henry C.Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)Hawke, John AnthonyRuggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Burman, J. B.Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Butler, Sir GeoffreyHenderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Campbell, E. T.Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)Hennessy, Major J. R. G.Sandeman, A. Stewart
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonHerbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Chapman, Sir S.Hilton, CecilSassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)
Christie, J. A.Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHolbrook, Sir Arthur RichardShaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Cobb, Sir CyrilHope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Shepperson, E. W.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Hopkins, J. W. W.Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Colfox, Major Wm. PhillipsHoward, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Sprot, Sir Alexander
Courtauld, Major J. S.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. sir George L.Huntingfield, LordStanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Iliffe, Sir Edward M.Strickland, Sir Gerald
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryInskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)Jacob, A. E.Styles, Captain H. Walter
Curzon, Captain ViscountKing, Captain Henry DouglasSugden, Sir Wilfrid
Dalkeith, Earl ofLamb, J. Q.Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipThomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Dean, Arthur WellesleyLoder, J. de V.Tinne, J. A.
Dixey, A. C.Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanWaterhouse, Captain Charles
Doyle, Sir N. GrattanLumley, L. R.Watts, Dr. T.
Drewe, C.Lynn, Sir Robert J.Wells, S. R.
Eden, Captain AnthonyMacdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Edmondson, Major A. J.Macintyre, IanWilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Elliot, Captain Walter E.Macmillan, Captain H.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithMacRobert, Alexander M.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Wise, Sir Fredric
Everard, W. LindsayManningham-Buller, Sir MervynWood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Margesson, Captain D.Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Fermoy, LordMerriman, F. B.Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Fielden, E. B.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Fleming, D. P.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut. -Col. J. T. C.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Ford, P. J.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveMajor Cope and Lord Stanley)
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Barr, J.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Ammon, Charles GeorgeBenn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

The Committee divided: Ayes, 168; Noes, 76.

Broad, F. A.Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Buchanan, G.Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Scurr, John
Cape, ThomasJohn, William (Rhondda, West)such, Charles H.
Charleton, H. C.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)Jones, H. H. (Merioneth)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Stamford, T. W.
Crawfurd, H. E.Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Stephen, Campbell
Dalton, HughKelly, W. T.Sutton, J. E.
Day, Colonel HarryKennedy, T.Tinker, John Joseph
Duckworth, JohnKirkwood, D.Varley, Frank B.
Fenby, T. D.Lawson, John JamesWallhead, Richard C.
Gibbins, JosephMacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Gillett, George M.Mackinder, W.Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)MacLaren, AndrewWebb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Maxton, JamesWelsh, J. C.
Grundy, T. W.Morris, R. H.Westwood, J.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)Murnin, H.Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Oliver, George HaroldWilliams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Hardie, George D.Paling, W.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonParkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hayday, ArthurPethick-Lawrence, F. W.Windsor, Walter
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)Potts, John S.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Hirst, G. H.Riley, BenMr. Warne and Mr. Hayes.
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I beg to move, in page 19, line 11, column 1, after the word "silk," to insert the word "component."

Division No. 179.]AYES.[3.58 a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelEdmondson, Major A. J.King, Captain Henry Douglas
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Elliot, Walter E.Lamb, J. Q
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithLister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Loder, J. de V.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Everard, W. LindsayLuce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Lumley, L. R.
Barnett, Major Sir RichardFermoy, LordLynn, Sir Robert J.
Barnston, Major Sir HarryFielden, E. B.Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Fleming, D. P.Macintyre, Ian
Betterton, Henry B.Ford, P. J.Macmillan, Captain H.
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Foxcroft, Captain C. T.MacRobert, Alexander M.
Blundell, F. N.Fraser, Captain IanMaitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Boothby, R. J. G.Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Brass, Captain W.Ganzoni, Sir JohnMargesson, Captain D.
Brassey, Sir LeonardGee, Captain R.Merriman, F. B.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveGibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamMonsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeGilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMoore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Brittain, Sir HarryGlyn, Major R. G. C.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Goff, Sir ParkNail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Gower, Sir RobertNelson, Sir Frank
Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Grotrian, H. BrentNeville. R. J.
Burman, J. B.Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Butler, Sir GeoffreyGunston, Captain D. W.Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Campbell, E. T.Hammersley, S. S.Nuttall, Ellis
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S)Hanbury, C.O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonHarland, A.Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Chapman, Sir S.Harrison, G. J. C.Penny, Frederick George
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Hartington, Marquess ofPercy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Christie, J. A.Haslam, Henry C.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHawke, John AnthonyPielou, D. P.
Cobb, Sir CyrilHeadlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Pilcher, G.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Power, Sir John Cecil
Colfox, Major Wm. PhillipsHeneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Cope. Major WilliamHennessy, Major J. R. G.Radford, E. A.
Courtauld, Major J. S.Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.Hilton, CecilRemer, J. R.
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryHolbrook, Sir Arthur RichardRuggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Curzon, Captain ViscountHopkins, J. W. W.Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Dalkeith, Earl ofHoward, Captain Hon. DonaldSamuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)Sandeman, A. Stewart
Dean, Arthur WellesleyHuntingfield, LordSanders, Sir Robert A.
Dixey, A. C.Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Doyle, Sir N. GrattanIliffe, Sir Edward M.Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Drewe, C.Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mel, (Renfrew, W)
Eden, Captain AnthonyJacob, A. E.Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)

Question put, "That the word 'component' be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 167; Noes, 75.

Shepperson, E. W.Sugden, Sir WilfridWindsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Slaney, Major P. KenyonTasker, Major R. InigoWinterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Sprot, Sir AlexanderThomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)Wise, Sir Fredric
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)Tinne, J. A.Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Gridgwater)
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)Waterhouse, Captain CharlesWood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.Watts, Dr. T.
Strickland, Sir GeraldWells, S. R.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)Lord Stanley and Captain Douglas.
Styles, Captain H. WalterWilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)Hacking.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Robinson, W. C. (Yorks. W. R., Elland).
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Hirst, G. H.Scurr, John
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Sitch, Charles H.
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Barr, J.Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)John, William (Rhondda, West)Stamford, T. W.
Broad, F. A.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Stephen, Campbell
Buchanan, G.Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Sutton, J. E.
Cape, ThomasJones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Tinker, John Joseph
Charleton, H. C.Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Varley, Frank B.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)Kelly, W. T.Wallhead, Richard C
Cowan. D. M. (Scottish Universities)Kennedy, T.Warne, G. H.
Crawfurd, H. E.Kirkwood, D.Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Dalton, HughLawson, John JamesWatts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Day, Colonel HarryMacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Duckworth, JohnMackinder, W.Welsh, J. C.
Fenby, T. D.MacLaren, AndrewWestwood, J.
Gibbins, JosephMaxton, JamesWilkinson, Ellen C.
Gillett, George M.Morris, R. H.Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Murnin, H.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Oliver, George HaroldWilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Grundy, T. W.Paling, W.Windsor, Walter
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Potts, John S.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Hardie, George D.Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes.
Hayday, ArthurRiley, Ben
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)

Photo of Lord Eustace Percy Lord Eustace Percy , Hastings

I beg to move, in page 19, line 13, column 1, to leave out the word "value" and to insert instead thereof the words aggregate of the values of all the components.

Captain BENN:

Can the President of the Board of Education move a new tax in Committee of Ways and Means?

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

The Question is, "That the word 'value' stand part of the Schedule."

Captain BENN:

May I invite the Noble Lord who moved this Amendment to give us a brief explanation?

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

If he did, I should have to call him to order for repetition.

Captain BENN:

The Amendment has been moved, and I think I am perfectly in order in asking the Noble Lord to explain the Amendment. It is a new Amendment. As a matter of fact, it refers to a new class of article. The Noble Lord having moved it, should explain it.

Photo of Mr William Mackinder Mr William Mackinder , Shipley

May we have the assurance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the Financial Secretary, or the President of the Board of Education that they are entering into a new method of Protection under the disguise of protecting silk which comes in as a component part of an article? Are we to understand that if thousands of ladies' handbags came here with the lining made purely of silk it is going to be the practice to tax, not the component part of the silk, but the aggregate part of the article?

Photo of Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence , Leicester West

On a previous paragraph the Chancellor challenged my accuracy as to a statement I was making. We are now on the second paragraph. Let me put a small point on this occasion. The Chancellor said that the effect of his changes was slightly to reduce the duty. Is that the case of an article the component parts of which are worth £5 and the value of the whole article is worth—I will put the actual value at £10? [Interruption.]

Photo of Mr David Kirkwood Mr David Kirkwood , Dumbarton District of Burghs

On a point of Order If you cannot control those men opposite you will have to report Progress. I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

I cannot accept that Motion.

Photo of Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence , Leicester West

The question is a very simple one, but after all it is a very serious matter. It really ought to be faced. [Interruption.] I will start again. Take a certain article, the component parts of which are worth £5 and the finished article worth £10. The value of the silk in that article is anything from 5s. to 10s. If we leave the paragraph as it stands here the amount of silk in that article would be less than 5 per cent. and it would only therefore involve a 4s. duty. If the Chancellor did what I suggested and took his definition of value in both columns as the same, the result would be, it would pay on that smaller value and it would pay about 10s. If, on the other hand, the Chancellor insists on taking the value of the article as the aggregate of the component parts the silk in that would be more than 5 per cent., yet when he comes to take the percentage of duty he takes it on the £10 and in consequence he brings the duty up from 4s. to £1 and that is a serious proposal.

Division No. 180.]AYES.[4.18 a.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)Riley, Ben
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Hirst, G. H.Scurr, John
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHirst, W. (Bradford, South)Sitch, Charles H.
Barr, J.Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Broad, F. A.John, William (Rhondda, West)Stamford, T. W.
Buchanan, GJohnston, Thomas (Dundee)Stephen, Campbell
Cape, ThomasJones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Sutton, J. E.
Charleton, H. C.Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Tinker, John Joseph
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Varley, Frank B.
Crawfurd, H. E.Kelly, W. T.Wallhead, Richard C.
Dalton, HughKirkwood, D.Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Day, Colonel HarryLawson, John JamesWatts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Duckworth, JohnMacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Fenby, T. D.Mackinder, W.Welsh, J. C.
Gibbins, JosephMacLaren, AndrewWestwood, J.
Gillett, George M.Maxton, JamesWilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Morris, R. H.Williams, C. P. (Denbigh Wrexham)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Murnin, H.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grundy, T. W.Oliver, George HaroldWilson, C. H. (Sheffield Attercliffe)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Paling, W.Windsor, Walter
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Hardie, George D.Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Hayday, ArthurPotts, John S.Mr. T. Kennedy and Mr. Warne.
Hayes, John HenryRichardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelBarnett, Major Sir RichardBrass, Captain W.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Brassey, Sir Leonard
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Betterton, Henry B.Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Briscoe, Richard George
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Blundell, F. N.Brittain, Sir Harry
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Boothby, R. J. G.Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I must say I really hardly understand the hon. Member's demonstration. The actual validity of that demonstration can only be judged in relation to the actual facts, and those facts naturally govern the whole incidence of the tax, and that is the respective value of the component parts on the one hand and the finished article on the other. The intention of the Clause is exactly what I say.

Photo of Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence Mr Frederick Pethick-Lawrence , Leicester West

I will not argue the question of the lucidity of the statement. It is perfectly clear that the actual tax would double in each individual case. The change the Chancellor is making will increase and in no case reduce the amount of the tax.

Captain BENN:

Why has the right hon. Gentleman taken articles for the use of poor people? By this Amendment that he is moving to-night he is altering the duty from 10 per cent. to 30 per cent. All the persiflage in the world will not excuse him from committing what is really a crime on the poor people of this country.

Question put, "That the word 'value' stand part of the Schedule."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 74; Noes, 164.

Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Gunston, Captain D. W.O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Burman, J. B.Hammersley, S. S.Penny, Frederick George
Butler, Sir GeoffreyHanbury, C.Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Campbell, E. T.Harland, A.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S)Harrison, G. J. C.Pielou, D. P.
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonHartington, Marquess ofPower, Sir John Cecil
Chapman, Sir S.Haslam, Henry C.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Hawke, John AnthonyRadford, E. A.
Christie, J. A.Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHenderson, Capt. R. B.(Oxf'd, Henley)Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Cobb, Sir CyrilHeneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Hennessy, Major J. R. G.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Colfox, Major Wm. PhillipsHerbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cope, Major WilliamHilton, CecilSamuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Courtauld, Major J. S.Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardSandeman, A. Stewart
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Hopkins, J. W. W.Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryHoward, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
Curzon, Captain ViscountHuntingfield, LordShaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Dalkeith, Earl ofHutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Shepperson, E. W.
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Iliffe, Sir Edward M.Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Dean, Arthur WellesleyInskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Sprot, Sir Alexander
Dixey, A. C.Jacob, A. E.Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Doyle, Sir N. GrattanKing, Captain Henry DouglasStanley, Lord (Fylde)
Drewe, C.Lamb, J. Q.Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Eden, Captain AnthonyLister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipStott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Edmondson, Major A. J.Loder, J. de V.Strickland, Sir Gerald
Elliot, Captain Walter E.Luce, Major-Gen, Sir Richard HarmanStuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithLumley, L. R.Styles, Captain H. Walter
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Lynn, Sir Robert J.Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Everard, W. LindsayMacdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Macintyre, IanTinne, J. A.
Fermoy, LordMacmillan, Captain H.Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Fielden, E. B.Mac Robert. Alexander M.Watts, Dr. T.
Fleming, D. P.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Wells, S. R.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.Manningham-Buller, Sir MervynWilliams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Fraser, Captain IanMargesson, Captain D.Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Merriman, F. B.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Ganzoni, Sir JohnMonsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Gee, Captain R.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.Wise, Sir Fredric
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamMorrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveWood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnNall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir JosephWood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.Nelson, Sir Frank
Gaff, Sir ParkNeville, R. J.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Gower, Sir RobertNewman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Mr. F. C. Thomson and Major
Grotrian, H. BrentNicholson, O. (Westminster)Sir Harry Barnston.
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Nuttall, Ellis

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

Division No. 181.]AYES.[4.26 a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelCharteris, Brigadier-General J.Fielden, E. B.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Christie, J. A.Fleming, D. P.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerFoxcroft, Captain C. T.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Cobb, Sir CyrilFraser, Captain Ian
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Colfox, Major Wm. PhillipsGanzoni, Sir John
Barnett, Major Sir RichardCourtauld, Major J. S.Gee, Captain R.
Barnston, Major Sir HarryCourthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Betterton, Henry B.Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryGoff, Sir Park
Blundell, F. N.Crockshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Gower, Sir Robert
Boothby, R. J. G.Curzon, Captain ViscountGrotrian, H. Brent
Brass, Captain W.Dalkeith, Earl ofGuinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Brassey, Sir LeonardDavies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Gunston, Captain D. W.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. WilliamClive Dean, Arthur WellesleyHacking, Captain Douglas H.
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeDixey, A. C.Hammersley, S. S.
Brittain, Sir HarryDoyle, Sir N. GrattanHanbury, C.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Drewe, C.Harland, A.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Eden, Captain AnthonyHarrison, G. J. C.
Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Edmondson, Major A. J.Hartington, Marquess of
Burman, J. B.Elliot, Walter E.Haslam, Henry C.
Butler, Sir GeoffreyErskine, James Malcolm MonteithHawke, John Anthony
Campbell, E. T.Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S)Everard, W. LindsayHenderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonFanshawe, Commander G. D.Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Chapman, Sir S.Fermoy, LordHennessy, Major J. R. G

The Committee divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 74.

Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveShaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Hilton, CecilNail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir JosephShepperson, E. W.
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Nelson, Sir FrankSlaney, Major P. Kenyon
Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardNeville, R. J.Sprot, Sir Alexander
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Hopkins, J. W. W.Nicholson, O. (Westminster)Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Howard, Captain Hon. DonaldNuttall, EllisStanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. HughStott. Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Huntingfield, LordOrmsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamStrickland, Sir Gerald
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Penny, Frederick GeorgeStuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Iliffe, Sir Edward M.Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)Styles, Captain H. Walter
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)Sugden, sir Wilfrid
Jacob, A. E.Pielou, D. P.Tasker, Major R. Inigo
King, Captain Henry DouglasPilcher, G.Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Lamb, J. Q.Power, Sir John CecilTinne, J. A.
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipPownail, Lieut.-Colonel AsshetonWaterhouse, Captain Charles
Loder, J. de V.Radford, E. A.Watts, Dr. T.
Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanReid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)Wells, S. R.
Lumley, L. R.Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Lynn, Sir Robert J.Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Macintyre, IanRussell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Macmillan, Captain H.Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)Wise, Sir Fredric
MacRobert, Alexander M.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Maitland, sir Arthur D. Steel-Sandeman, A. StewartWood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Manningham-Buller, Sir MervynSanders, Sir Robert A.
Merriman, F. B.Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)Captain Margesson and Major Sir Harry Barnston.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Hirst, G. H.Scurr, John
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Sitch, Charles H.
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Barr, J.Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)John, William (Rhondda, West)Stamford, T. W.
Broad, F. A.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Stephen, Campbell
Buchanan, GJones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Sutton, J. E.
Cape, ThomasJones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Tinker, John Joseph
Charleton, H. C.Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Varley, Frank B.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Kelly, W. T.Wallhead, Richard C.
Crawfurd, H. E.Kennedy, T.Warne, G. H.
Dalton, HughKirkwood, D.Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline).
Day, Colonel HarryLawson, John JamesWatts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Duckworth, JohnMacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Fenby, T. D.Mackinder, W.Welsh, J. C.
Gibbins, JosephMacLaren, AndrewWestwood, J.
Gillett, George M.Maxton, JamesWilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Morris, R. H.Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Murnin, H.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grundy, T. W.Oliver, George HaroldWilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)Paling, W.Windsor, Walter
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Hardie, George D.Potts, John S.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Hayday, ArthurRichardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes.
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Riley, Ben

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I beg to move, in page 19, line 15, column 1, after the word "silk", to insert the word "component."

Division No. 182.]AYES.[4.35 a.m.
Aqcland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelBriscoe, Richard GeorgeColfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Brittain, Sir HarryCope, Major William
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Brocklebank, C. E. R.Courtauld, Major J. S.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Burman, J. B.Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Barnett, Major Sir RichardButler, Sir GeoffreyCraik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Barnston, Major Sir HarryCampbell, E. T.Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)Curzon, Captain Viscount
Betterton, Henry B.Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonDalkeith, Earl of
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Chapman, Sir S.Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)
Blundell F. N.Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Boothby, R. J. G.Christie, J. A.Dixey, A. C.
Brass, Captain W.Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerDoyle, Sir N. Grattan
Brassey, Sir LeonardCobb, Sir CyrilDrewe, C.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveCochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Eden, Captain Anthony

Question put, "That the word 'component' be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 74.

Edmondson, Major A. J.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Elliot, Captain Walter E.Huntingfield, LordRhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithHutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Iliffe, Sir Edward M.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Everard, W. LindsayInskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Jacob, A. E.Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Fermoy, LordKing, Captain Henry DouglasSamuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Fielden, E. B.Lamb, J. Q.Sandeman, A. Stewart
Fleming, D. P.Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipSanders, Sir Robert A.
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.Loder, J. de V.Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Fraser, Captain IanLuce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanShaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E.Lumley, L. R.Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.)
Ganzoni, Sir JohnLynn, Sir Robert J.Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Gee, Captain RMacdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Shepperson, E. W.
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamMacintyre, IanSlaney, Major P. Kenyon
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMacmillan Captain H.Sprot, Sir Alexander
Glyn, Major R. G. C.Mac Robert, Alexander M.Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Goff, Sir ParkMaitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland)
Gower, Sir RobertManningham-Buller, Sir MervynStott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Grotrian, H. BrentMargesson, Captain O.Strickland, Sir Gerald
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Merriman, F. B.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Gunston, Captain D. W.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Styles, Capt. H. W.
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut. -Col. J. T. C.Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Hammersley, S. S.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveTasker, Major R. Inigo
Hanbury, C.Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir JosephThomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Harland, A.Nelson, Sir FrankTinne, J. A.
Harrison, G. J. C.Neville, R. J.Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Hartington, Marquess ofNewman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Watts, Dr. T.
Haslam, Henry C.Nicholson, O. (Westminster)Wells, S. R.
Hawke, John AnthonyNuttall, EllisWilliams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. HughWilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Ormsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamWindsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.Penny, Frederick GeorgeWinterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)Wise, Sir Fredric
Hilton, CecilPeto, G. (Somerset, Frome)Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Pielou, D. P.Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardPilcher, G.
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Power, Sir John CecilTELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Hopkins, J. W. W.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel AsshetonMajor Hennessy and Lord Stanley.
Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Radford, E. A.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Hirst, G. H.Scurr, John
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)Sitch, Charles H.
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHudson, J. H.Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Barr, J.Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)John, William (Rhondda, West)Stamford, T. W.
Broad, F. A.Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)Stephen, Campbell
Buchanan, G.Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Sutton, J. E.
Cape, ThomasJones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Tinker, John Joseph
Charleton, H. C.Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Varley, Frank B.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Kelly, W. T.Wallhead, Richard C.
Crawfurd, H. E.Kennedy, T.Warne, G. H.
Dalton, HughKirkwood, D.Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Day, Colonel HarryLawson, John JamesWatts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Duckworth, JohnMacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Fenby, T. D.Mackinder, W.Welsh, J. C.
Gibbins, JosephMacLaren, AndrewWestwood, J.
Gillett, George M.Maxton, JamesWilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Morris, R. H.Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Murnin, H.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grundy, T. W.Oliver, George HaroldWilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Paling, W.Windsor Walter
Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Hardie, George D.Potts, John S.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Hayday, ArthurRichardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes.
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)Riley, Ben

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

I beg to move, in page 19, line 16, column 1, to leave out (the word "value", and to insert instead thereof the words aggregate of the values of all the components.

Captain BENN:

I think it is time that hon. Members of this Committee made some protest against the obstruction of the Budget by Amendments of a drafting character moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Hon. Members of this House have moved four Amendments, and I think this is the eleventh the Chancellor of the Exchequer has moved to his own Budget. The Amendments which have caused the difficulty have been Amendments moved from the Treasury Bench by the Chancellor himself or, in his absence, by the President of the Board of Education. I only rise to speak on this Amendment because the next Amendment proposes to exempt articles with less than 1 per cent. of the value silk. It is an Amendment very much desired by those interested, and a very reasonable Amendment. I would ask if you, Sir, intend to call that Amendment?

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

All the series of Amendments are in the main of a subsidiary, or drafting, character and are the result of prolonged discussion on different aspects of the trade. If our legislation is to be as little onerous as possible, it is necessary it should be carefully shaped and finished. I feel some apology is due to the Committee because of the many Amendments placed on the Paper, but I would advise my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Capt. Benn) not to employ terms of recrimination against the Government in this matter. I understood we had met the wishes of hon. Members in the general conduct of the Debate this afternoon, and that he would

Division No. 183.]AYES.[4.48 a.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Henderson, Bt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Riley, Ben
Adamson, w. M. (Staff., Cannock)Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Hint, G. H.Scurr, John
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHirst, W. (Bradford, South)Sitch, Charles H.
Barr, J.Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Broad, F. A.John, William (Rhondda, West)Stamford, T. W.
Buchanan, G.Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Stephen, Campbell
Cape, ThomasJones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)Sutton, J. E.
Charleton, H. C.Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Tinker, John Joseph
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Varley, Frank B.
Crawfurd, H. E.Kelly, W. T.Wallhead, Richard C.
Dalton, HughKirkwood, D.Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Day, Colonel HarryLawson, John JamesWatts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Duckworth, JohnMacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Fenby, T. D.Mackinder, W.Welsh, J. C.
Gibbins, JosephMacLaren, AndrewWestwood, J.
Gillett, George M.Maxton, JamesWilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Morris, R. H.Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Murnin, H.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grundy, T. W.Oliver, George HaroldWilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Atterclifle)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Paling, W.Windsor, Walter
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Hardie, George D.Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Hayday, ArthurPotts, John S.Mr. T. Kennedy and Mr. Warne.
Hayes, John HenryRichardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelBetterton, Henry B.Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Blundell, F. N.Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K.Boothby, R. J. G.Burman, J. B.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E.Brass, Captain W.Butler, Sir Geoffrey
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Brassey, Sir LeonardCampbell, E. T.
Barnett, Major Sir RichardBridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveCayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S)
Barnston, Major Sir HarryBriscoe, Richard GeorgeChadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Brittain, Sir HarryChapman, Sir S.

have facilitated hon. Members reaching their homes at a reasonable hour, but he did not do that. I am not making any reproach against those Members who were unfortunately stranded here, and are occupying their time pacing the lobby in divisions. I think the hon. Member (Capt. Benn) should be the last Member of the House to protest.

Captain BENN:

I must say I consider—[Interruption].

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

I called upon the hon. and gallant Member for Leith.

Captain BENN:

I very much resent what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said. We moved about two or three amendments of substance. We took very little part in the debate, and the right hon. Gentleman charges us with breaking the agreement. We have most faithfully observed our obligation, and I consider the charge most uncalled for.

Question put, "That the word 'value' stand part of the Schedule."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 74; Noes, 164.

Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Haslam, Henry C.Peto, G. (Somerset, Frame)
Christie, J. A.Hawke, John AnthonyPielou, D. P.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHeadlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Pilcher, G.
Cobb, Sir CyrilHenderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)Power, Sir John Cecil
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Colfox, Major Wm. PhillipsHennessy, Major J. R. G.Radford, E. A.
Cope, Major WilliamHerbert, S.(York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Courtauld, Major J. S.Hilton, CecilRhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Roberts, Samuel (Hereford Hereford)
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim)Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardRuggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryHopkins, J. W. W.Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)Howard, Captain Hon. DonaldSamuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Curzon, Captain ViscountHudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Sandeman, A. Stewart
Dalkeith, Earl ofHuntingfield, LordSanders, Sir Robert A.
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Dean, Arthur WellesleyIliffe, Sir Edward M.Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)
Dixey, A. C.Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.)
Doyle, Sir N. GrattanJacob, A. E.Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Drewe, C.King, Captain Henry DouglasShepperson, E. W.
Eden, Captain AnthonyLamb, J. Q.Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Edmonson, Major A. J.Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipSprot, Sir Alexander
Elliot, Captain Walter E.Loder, J. de V.Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithLuce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanStanley, Lord (Fylde)
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Lumley, L. R.Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Everard, W. LindsayLynn, Sir Robert J.Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)Strickland, Sir Gerald
Fermoy, LordMacintyre, IanStuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Fielden, E. B.Macmillan, Captain H.Styles, Captain H. Walter
Fleming, D. P.MacRobert, Alexander M.Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Fraser, Captain IanManningham-Buller, Sir MervynThomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Margesson, Captain D.Tinne, J. A.
Ganzoni, Sir JohnMerriman, F. B.Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Gee, Captain R.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.Watts, Dr. T.
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMoore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.Wells, S. R.
Glyn, Major R. G. C.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur CliveWilliams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Goff Sir ParkNall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir JosephWilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Gower, Sir RobertNelson, Sir FrankWindsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Grotrian, H. BrentNeville, R. J.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Wise, Sir Fredric
Gunston, Captain D. w.Nicholson, O. (Westminster)Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Hammersley, S. S.Nuttall, EllisWood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Hanbury, C.O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Harland, A.Ormsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamTELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Harrison, G. J. C.Penny, Frederick GeorgeColonel Gibbs and Captain
Hartington, Marquess ofPercy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)Douglas Hacking.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."