Orders of the Day — Supply

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 5 March 1925.

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Photo of Mr George Garro-Jones Mr George Garro-Jones , Hackney South

It is not often that in a foreign affairs Debate of this importance the "Z" Reserves are called up, but it is not altogether a bad thing that the Government should listen to the views of those who were not called upon to speak with the same amount of responsibility that is expected from Members of the Front Benches. Older statesmen are wont to surround the discussion of foreign affairs with a non-controversial atmosphere. I think that that is very commendable. There is no one who has made any study of the foreign situation as it exists in Europe to-day who cannot but be aware of the extraordinary complexity which surrounds every one of the various problems which together make up the European problem. It may not, therefore, be altogether a bad thing if one attempts to clarify, even if you like from the less well-informed standpoint, some of these problems.

I would like to know, for instance, whether it is not possible to divide the problem of disarmament under three heads: disarmament in the air. naval disarmament, and military disarmament? The one which concerns us most closely, in my opinion, is disarmament in the air. From these benches a few days ago, as the result of a long discussion extending into the small hours of the morning, we secured from the Prime Minister a promise that we should have a specific statement on disarmament during this Debate. Those of us who made those representations to the Government on that evening had in view particularly the problem of air disarmament, and, though I have listened carefully to the Debate this afternoon, T am not aware that the problem of air disarmament has been discussed separately at all. It is on air disarmament that this country stands to gain most. Naval disarmament perhaps comes immediately between air and military disarmament, but it is on the question of military disarmament that the greatest complexities occur. Therefore, T listened with profound attention from a very back bench to the statement of the Foreign Secretary this afternoon.

No one knows better than the right hon. Gentleman how to make a clear and lucid statement, but no one knows better than he how to be obscure, and in the speech to which we listened this afternoon we had a masterly example of obscurity from the Front Bench. In my opinion we are gradually tending to the belief that security can only be obtained by building up, as the right hon. Member for Spen Valley (Sir J. Simon) said, two opposing conflicting rival sets of powers in Europe. We seem to be losing sight of the possibility that security can be obtained by disarmament. In my opinion security obtained by armaments is false and misleading. The only security which will not mislead is the genuine security which can be obtained only by disarmament. Another very important subject, of which we have heard nothing this afternoon, is the question of Inter-allied debts. I have had the privilege of fighting three elections in the East End of London. I have the advantage, or the disadvantage of having on my left hand the constituency of the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle). Upon another side there is the constituency of the hon. Member for North-East Bethnal Green (Mr. Windsor) and on another side there is the constituency of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), so I feel, therefore, rather in the position of an islander. I do not spend my time, as some of those gentlemen say they do, in going down to preach a class war, and doing everything to preach the difference between the children of the East End and the children of the West End, but I have a task which I think I can perform more profitably and that is to convey to this House the views that are held in that part of this great city.

If there is one subject on which they are intensely interested it is the question of inter-Allied debts. They have been told—I have told them—not with the object of arousing their animosity against any class, that France owes this country £650,000,000 and Italy £550,000,000, and that other European nations owe us also large sums, not to speak of the large sums which are owed to us by Russia. If France and Italy together were to pay us 2½ per cent, interest on those debts which they owe to us, and a further 2½ per cent, sinking fund, we should be able not only to take Is. in the £ off the Income Tax, but we should be able as well to reduce many other taxes which the people of this country find it very hard to. bear. But when we talk about 2½ per cent, interest and sinking fond on those debts; we are told that it is preposterous to ask France to pay this amount. What was reasonable has become preposterous in the realm of inter-Allied debts. I ask the Foreign Secretary to beware lest what is preposterous in the realm of disarmament and security of Europe should come to appear to be reasonable, when he refers to the proposal, which is finding a great deal of support even in this country, that some pact of security which we are to give to France should extend not only to the Rhine, where the Rhine is said to be one of the frontiers protecting this land now that we have the great development of air warfare, but should extend also to the eastern frontiers of Europe.

I consider it to be a preposterous claim that we in this country should send our armies and our navies around by the Baltic to protect the integrity of frontiers in Eastern Europe. That preposterous claim is rapidly becoming regarded as one which is necessary in due time very seriously to entertain. I do think that it is time for us to adjust our values on the question of inter-Allied debts and on Eastern and Western security. I know the difficulties which arc to be found in diplomacy. I know how difficult it is to understand the fears and the points of view which agitate the minds of foreign nations. I have been to France like most other Members of this House, and have spoken with Frenchmen on this subject, but the more you speak to Frenchmen on this subject of inter-Allied debts and securities the more you realise that we have drifted very far apart on those matters, and the reason is that our case has not been stated with sufficient firmness during the last six years. Time and again we have made concessions. France has only had to put her back up upon a subject and we have given in on the plea that we must not offend France. I am not more anxious than anybody else to offend France, and I shall be most careful not to say anything which will offend France, but if stating our interests is going to offend France, we are living in a very false security if we are going to withhold our case the whole time. I have asked several questions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in an attempt to find out what is the next step which they are going to take to urge upon France and Italy the necessity of paying to us some small sum of interest on the debts which they owe to us. We leave out of account the capital for the time being. But we want the Government to ask France and Italy, "When are you going to begin to pay us just a little interest on the debt which you owe us?"

When I put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer the, other day, he replied that Italy had promised to initiate discussions on the repayment of her debts—not now, but in a few months' time. These debts are years old. We have the magnificent promise from Italy that in a few months' time—not one, two or three months, but it might be six months hence—she will magnanimously consider what she will do to pay us a small portion of interest on the debts that she owes us. I followed that subject up to-day by putting a question to the Prime Minister. I do not wish to take advantage of the right hon. Gentleman's absence. We, all of us, especially those on the back benches, appreciate very much the regularity of his attendance in this House, and we feel the greatest sympathy for him in the cause of his absence. I asked the right hon. Gentleman to-day whether it was the Foreign Secretary or the Chancellor of the Exchequer on whom fell the responsibility for taking further steps in connection with the debts of France, Italy and other nations.

It is many weeks now since we sent to France a Note in which we made the most magnanimous concession. Not only has she not tried to put us off, but we have not had a reply of any kind. I have been trying consistently and very humbly to ascertain, first from the Chancellor of the Exchequer and then from the Foreign Secretary, what is to be the next step. Are we to let the matter go by default? It is going by default. The feeling is growing every day in France and' Italy, and in every other country that owes us money, that we are not going to trouble about collecting our debts, and every week will make it more difficult for us to collect a single penny of capital or interest on those vast sums. I am getting accustomed to the receipt of vague answers from the Government. The answer that I received to-day was that it would be impossible, especially within the limits of an answer to a question, to define the exact degree of responsibility which attaches to the Ministers most directly concerned in a matter of Government policy, which must ultimately be one for consideration by the Cabinet as a whole. Why "ultimately be one for consideration by the Cabinet as a whole"? The Cabinet have had six years to consider it. The present Cabinet has had quite long enough to consider it. Although I quite understood that the Foreign Secretary, who answered for the Prime Minister, could not tell me in answer to a question whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Foreign Secretary was responsible, I would point out that we now have a Debate on the subject, and since the Foreign Secretary told me that he could not answer me within the limits of a reply to the question, I would like to ask the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is responsible for taking the next step to collect this money, or whether it lies in the realm of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. This uncertainty as to who is responsible only postpones the day when one of them will do it. If neither of them knows who is supposed to do it, the result will be that it will not be done at all. It is such a difficult subject that it is more likely than any other question of foreign policy to be left untouched, unless brought to the attention of the Government with all the force that we can bring to bear from this side of the House.

In conclusion, let me try to express the point of view of the man in the street on this question. I shall attempt not to be indiscreet. Sometimes it is difficult for us who feel strongly and have to face the music before crowded and not altogether ruly audiences, to stand up in this House and in calm, dispassionate, unraised voices say what we think with regard to this question. But I may, perhaps, be allowed to say what is felt by some of those poor people in the East End" of London who have not a very close knowledge of foreign affairs, but whose judgment on broad lines is generally not far wrong, in my experience. They see that for six years since the War, on the questions of the Ruhr, disarmament, security for ourselves and for France, aye, and for Germany too, on Inter-Allied Debts, on Turkey, the Foreign Secretaries have merely been running round and round the question. They have not solved any one of these questions permanently, and it seems to them that it is as if the Foreign Secretaries are like children, running round a maypole or a mulberry bush, always afraid to come down to a hard settlement of the problem.

Can the foreign Secretary put a map of the world before him and put his finger on a single spot of the earth's surface and say, "There we have won a permanent. solid, diplomatic victory"! We have not won a diplomatic victory since the War. If "Peace hath her victories no less renowned than war," peace has also her defeats, and in the realm of diplomacy we have suffered defeat after defeat quite as damaging and inflicting quite as much loss and suffering on the people of this country as defeats on the battlefield could inflict. I respectfully beg the Foreign Secretary, when he goes to the Council of the League of Nations next week, to stiffen his diplomatic sinews a bit. Let him for once remember that there are 45,000,000 people in this country, many of whom are having a very hard time. We cannot afford constantly to place the interests of other nations above the interests of the British people. I ask him for once to stand up for the poor British people, who have received the worst end of the stick for the last six years.