Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Parkinson.]

May I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that it is not 11 o'clock yet, and there is a Bill on the Order Paper in my name, namely, the Industrial and Provident Societies (Amendment) Bill. I take it I am in order in raising that?

The Adjournment of the House has been moved.

I thought I rose before the Adjournment was moved.

The hon. Member did not catch my eye.

Before the Adjournment is moved, ought not every notice on the Order Paper to be read out? I think we ought to have the right to have them called.

May I not raise the last Motion on the Order Paper in my name— That the Order [2nd June] that the Elizabeth Fry Refuge and Refuge for the Destitute Bill be committed to a Standing Committee be read and discharged and that the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Mr. HARVEY:

I only wish to claim the attention of the House for a moment or two, in order to ask you, Sir, to use your influence on behalf of a matter which interests every Member of the House. We are about to adjourn very shortly. Great numbers of our constituents will be visiting London, and anxious to visit the Houses of Parliament. Under existing arrangements, it will only be possible for them to do that on Saturdays. A great number of people from the country are unable to stay in London on the Saturday, and, in any ease, far more will want to come on other days. I believe if you would be good enough to use your great influence with the Lord Great Chamberlain, it might be possible to arrange that on days of the week other than Saturday access should be granted to the public to visit the Houses of Parliament, and if that were done it would give great satisfaction. Very many thousands of people, many of whom will only be coming to London this summer, will have the one opportunity of their lives to visit this House. I very much hope, therefore, you may see your way to use your influence, and I believe it will be a matter that will receive support from all quarters of the House.

When I endeavoured to ask a question last week on this subject, I was told it was not a topic which came under any Minister in the House. Therefore I should like to take this opportunity of supporting the request of the hon. Gentleman, that this matter may be placed before the proper authority, in order that the quite unusual number of visitors to the Houses of Parliament may have an opportunity of seeing the Palace of Westminster during the Vacation. I should like to add, that if by any unfortunate chance the House should be sitting after this week, whether, instead of the somewhat unwieldy procession which goes around the House every day now, a similar procedure could be adopted in the morning of every day to that which is followed on Saturdays, that is, that from 10 o'clock in the morning until 1 o'clock in the afternoon, instead of Members being necessary as guides to the parties, the House should be open, and the public able to see the main parts of the Palace, leaving the more private parts available for Members for private use.

Both the matters raised are without my jurisdiction. They are entirely in the hands of the Lord Great Chamberlain. I was approached by some hon. Members on the same matter a few days ago, and I suggested that they should organise a deputation to see the Lord Great Chamberlain on the matter. Hon. Members will appreciate that I ought to be careful not to give an opinion on something that comes under somebody else's authority, but certainly should the Lord Great Chamberlain see fit, I shall have no objection at all. It does not really lie within my province. Perhaps the hon. Members will take that course.

I should like to crave the indulgence of the House for the pur- pose of explaining the reason why I asked for the Adjournment not to be moved at the present moment. The Industrial and Provident Societies (Amendment) Bill was carried after a very short debate on its Second Reading by a unanimous vote of the House, without a Division. The Bill subsequently secured a passage through Committee, and it came before this House one Friday some time ago. On that occasion, because it was reached about ten minutes to Four, an Hon. Member on the other side objected on the ground that sufficient consideration had not been given to this Bill, and Members had not had time thoroughly to peruse it. On that objection, I withdrew the Bill that Friday, so as to give Members an opportunity of reconsidering the matter. I wish to submit that this Measure has been before the House for a considerable period. Some Members have put down objections to various points, and I think it is reasonable to state that many Members on the other side who are interested in the passage of this Bill are satisfied with the main provisions, although there are one or two adjustments that might be made by agreement. In view of the fact that this Bill secured the unanimous support of the House on Second Reading, and there was little Opposition during the Committee stage, I do appeal to the House to give private Members, who have very seldom an opportunity of getting any proposal that they submit to the House—

I am afraid that I cannot allow the hon. Member to proceed to discuss a Bill on the Motion "That the House do now adjourn."

On a point of Order. The time of private Members in this House has been taken up very considerably by the Government ever since the Session commenced. I have had a Bill down since the 2nd June, and on various occasions when there has been a possibility of that Bill being discussed—and it is an important Bill—objection has been taken; but latterly the Government themselves have moved the Adjournment of the House prior to the Bill being called. This is the second occasion on which that has occurred. Hon. Members opposite may laugh, but the point is that I as a private Member have a perfect right to bring anything before the House that fits in with the procedure of the House, but the "usual channels" get to work and break up the night before Eleven o'Clock, when we have been told that there was a possibility of sitting later than the agreed time, and deny to private Members the opportunity of having matters discussed that are vital to industry, and in regard to which hon. Members opposite can show some sympathy, such, for instance, as the question of casual labour in the docks, where the men are practically starving. I protest that the Government are wilfully taking the time of those private Members and putting obstruction in the way of their bringing in legislation on behalf of the people.

May I be allowed to say, on this Motion, that the point at which the Adjournment Motion was moved was the point, which we had reached, at which it was understood that such a Motion would be move? These matters are necessarily matters of arrangement between the representatives of the different parties in the House, and we can seldom estimate quite precisely the moment when the business of the House will be concluded. My hon. Friend the Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. B. Smith) should observe that far in front of the particular Bill to which he refers there is another Bill which, if now the House could proceed with it, would undoubtedly take the time up to eleven o'clock and long after, if it could be done. Personally, I should have no objection, if it could be done, to the Motion for the Adjournment being withdrawn and lo the different Bills on the Paper being called, but I am certain that strong objection would be raised in other quarters of the House. I hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherhithe will not conclude that the Government are at fault in the very ordinary course which they are taking.

I want, Mr. Speaker, to take your opinion as to whether it is not open to us, on the Motion for Adjournment, to appeal to the Government not to proceed with it. The Deputy-Leader of the House has told us that they have come to the end of Government business, and has spoken of arrangements which were made through the usual channels; but those arrangements concern Government Orders, and do not corcern at all the Bills which private Members have upon the Paper; and, under our present rules in regard to private Members' Bills, so few are the opportunities of private Members to pass their Bills that it does seem very hard that, night after night, we find that at Ten o'Clock in the evening Government business has been concluded, and yet we may not use the hour that remains for proceeding with Bills in which private Members are interested.

I think we have a real ground for complaint that, the Government business having come to and end at about 10 o'clock, we may not proceed with private Members' Bills that are on the Paper. I am myself very much interested in one Bill on the Paper, and, although I do not think that three-quarters of an hour would suffice to dispose of the Welsh Local Option Bill, nevertheless I venture to think that that Bill is at least as important as some of the Government Bills on the Paper, and as, when the matter was previously before the House, the House declined to Closure the Debate on the ground that the Measure had not received sufficient discussion, I suggest that, if we had till 11 o'clock to discuss it, the House would probably now dispose of the Bill, and would not seek refuge in refusing the Closure. When Government business is finished, if there is time available for private Members to get their chance, I do not think the Government ought to take it from us by moving the Adjournment at 10 o'clock.

May I ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, in a matter of this kind? I know that you are always ready to give us the benefit of your knowledge of procedure. In the case of a Motion of this kind, which seeks to take away the necessary time which could be utilised to advantage up to Eleven o'Clock for the purpose of dealing with those Measures in which we are all so much interested, is there no way in which we can do so? I know that you are prepared to advise one who does not know all the procedure in a matter of this kind. May I appeal to both sides of the House, because, if an agreement has been come to, I am not one of those who would seek even to ask my own Government to break an honourable agreement? May I make this appeal, as I think there is an expressed opinion to that effect both above and below the Gangway on this side, that a discussion be allowed, at least, on the Bill which would be immediately called, and which affects hundreds of thousands of individuals in this country? May I appeal to hon. Members to allow the Government to withdraw the Motion for Adjournment, and allow us to get on with the debate on the Bill which will be called next?

A private Bill, if no one object, may be allowed to go through at 11 o'clock. That is one thing, but it would be another matter if a Bill—

The hon, and gallant Gentleman has already spoken once on this question. On the point put to me, of course, it is for the House whether or not it accept this Motion, but I would remind hon. Members that sometimes we get through a great deal more business by agreement than we do in the absence of it.

In the event of there being no agreement, should I be in order in moving the Closure to get a Division on the action of the Government in moving the Adjournment?

The hon. Member would be in order in moving the Closure, but it is in my discretion to accept it or not.

I do not understand that there could have been between the parties in the House any agreement that excludes the private Member. I entirely support what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman on the front bench, that any arrangement is an arrangement as to Government orders, and what we complain of is that this is not merely done to-night but that again and again, by reason of moving the Adjournment, we have been deprived of the very little time that is given to private Members. It is all very well to speak of the traditions of this House as we do and to show visitors over the House. I have sat in the Library on occasions and have heard Members showing visitors with great pride the page in our Manuscript Journal which James I tore out, upon which the Protestation was entered. I think it would do Members of the Government good to see what was entered upon that Protestation. It insisted not only upon the rights of the House, but again and again upon the rights of every Member of this House, and that is a principle which, is being forgotten. We have to assert, if we can, that every Member of this House has his rights as much as the Government have, and I think for the Government to come to the conclusion that when their business is ended the work of the House is finished is something altogether inconsistent with tradition, and, seeing that the opportunities are so limited, if occasionally we get a quarter or half an hour to discuss some Bill so that a private Member may be able to carry out what is a part of his constitutional right of introducing legislation and securing the discussion of legislation, that small opportunity ought not to be taken from us, and I hope discussion will bring the Government into a different frame of mind, so that in the Autumn Session, if an opportunity should arise, private Members may have full use of that opportunity.

I think hon. Members opposite are really rather unreasonable. Cases are constantly occurring when business ends sooner than was expected. Why does it end? Because the Government have made an arrangement that they are to take certain business and progress is facilitated and the House comes to an end of the task which the Government has set it, private Members get up and claim that, as there has been an easy passage for the Government proposals, they should be in a position, unexpectedly and without any warning to the general body of Members, to proceed with various Bills, some of which are of a highly controversial character.

They have been on the Order Paper for weeks.

That may be, but there is no reason why controversial private Bills should be taken in this way. The Government challenges the Opposition with highly controversial Measures, which have to be fought on their merits. There is also a vast amount of necessary business to be got through, whatever Government is in power, such as the kind of business that has been before the House to-night. It is entirely in accordance with precedence that that business should be facilitated and not fractiously opposed. If hon. Members had announced that if the Motion for the Adjournment was moved at an early hour they would move their controversial Bills, do they imagine for a moment that the Government would have got through their business so easily? The hour of Eleven would have struck before those hon. Members would have been on their feet making their proposals. I submit that the Adjournment should be carried, and that hon. Members are not treating the House-fairly when they advocate these highly controversial proposals, without notice, and behind the backs of the vast Majority of Members of the House, who knew what was the business before the House tonight and did not expect controversial private Measures to be brought forward.

I wish the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton) had been as dear as his beer. I hope he will give me something for that advertisement. On the Motion for the Adjournment we have a right to wander all over the world, and I am going to wander. I sometimes wonder where I am. I would ask the House seriously to consider the situation in which the private Member finds himself. Bargains are made behind our backs, and we do not get a look in. We are sold like lambs at Smithfield. Whatever we want to raise and whatever we want to do, it is all arranged by these nice kind gentlemen. Some of us are not going to stick it much longer. I want to say, quite frankly, that I am a Social Democrat, a Socialist in economics and a Democrat in politics. Some of you do not know the meaning of it. If you did you would have to go to school again, but we want to know exactly where some of us are. I am prepared to meet the best you have got on any platform in Great Britain, and to describe our position. We know where we are. Some of our leaders do not know where they are. You can say what you like about it, but it is true. We have not fought all our lives since we were boys to put people into position. We have fought to bring about a better time for the people. I am not going back to Silvertown to make apologies. I want to see the people have a better chance that they have had before. A seat in Parliament does not matter a tinker's curse.

Why did you come here?

I came here because I believed that I was going to do good for the people whom I represent. That is more than you believe.

I must ask the Noble Lord not to interrupt. The hon. Member will please address me, and not the Noble Lord.

I would rather address you, Sir, than address him, because, if there is any nobility in life, you are noble. He is noble by accident. I shall never be noble, but so far as some of us on these benches are concerned, we are not going always to be treated as back numbers or back benchers. We want our rights to be asserted. Parliament was established by the rights of private Members. The men who fought the battle for Parliamentary government were private Members. It was not done by arrangement between the Front Benches, but by the people sending their men here to represent them, and we have a right not to be side tracked, not to be sent abroad, not to be told that we can only do this, and can only do that. I, for one, am going to back up my comrades in the fight we shall have to get equal rights with the people who sit on the Front Benches.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent and declined then to put that Question.

We understand diplomacy. We know exactly what happens, and those who denounce secret diplomacy when other parties are in power are most capable of it themselves. I am not going to be any party to it, and we are not going to be a party to it. Some of us here are fighting for the rights of the common people.

Hear, hear!

I shall not have these interruptions.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker.

I wish, with the leave of the House, to raise an issue which may be deemed controversial. It is a question of some importance, and one to which I have been giving some thought. It is in relation to the situation in connection with Ireland. We are in this peculiar position. We are faced with a situation in Ireland to-day which I do not want to discuss. A great deal can be said, I suppose, for both positions. The point which I want to raise is this. On Thursday a statement is to be made in this House in connection with that situation, and that statement will give us, I hope, some idea as to what steps the Free State and the Government of Northern Ireland are prepared to take. This is the situation to which I want the Leader of the House to address himself either to-night or to-morrow. If we agree not to go ahead with the Bill, what is likely to happen is that in the Southern part of Ireland a serious situation will arise and possibly life will be lost. On the other hand, in a situation of that kind the North may decide to act. I am not going to blame them for it; they will do what they think right. If the Government do not take a decided step between now and the Adjournment of the House, I fear that forces may be let loose and that the House ought to meet to consider the matter. I raise this question with due deference, not expecting an answer at the moment, but in order that to-morrow my right hon. Friend the Deputy-Leader of the House may make a statement at the end of Questions and tell us whether the House is to be allowed to discuss the situation and to take whatever steps it cares to take. I raise the question in no hostile spirit to the front bench, but in the hope that on the position with which I am concerned—the welfare of this country and certain Colonies attached to this country—the right hon. Gentleman will give an answer.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent and declined then to put that Question.

If I may say so, with all respect, the Government is in no need of reminders of the serious Irish situation, but, obviously, I cannot anticipate any statement which may be made on the Motion for the Adjourment on Thursday. That statement has already been promised, and it will be made at a time when hon. Members can follow it up by discussion. For the moment, that is all I can say.

That does not meet my point. If the statement is made on the Adjournment Motion, nobody can raise the issue about which I am asking—the issue that we may be faced with a form of civil war in Ireland. I would not have raised the matter to-night if I could do so on Thursday. Some of us may think that the Government ought to deal with it before the House adjourns. We cannot raise it if the statement is made on the Adjournment Debate. I am asking that the Lord Privy Seal should consider making the statement at a time when we raise the issue.

When I raised my original question on the rights of private Members you stated, Mr. Speaker, that the House should decide. If the House is to decide, it is only fair that a private Member should have the right to get the vote of the House, instead of three-quarters of an hour being spent in a general discussion. The original point was the rights of private Members.

The hon. Member is challenging my discretion.

All the anxiety on the other side of the House is due to a fear on the part of some hon. Members opposite that the House may adjourn before they can grant what the Irish Free State wants. It is the party opposite who are causing all the trouble.

I pointed out to the hon. Member to-day, or tried to do so, that it is grossly disorderly for him to fling his arms across the House. I shall not be able to listen to him until he gets rid of that habit.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

I think the House is prepared to come to a decision.

Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."

The House divided: Ayes, 144; Noes, 72.

Adjourned accordingly at Twelve Minutes before Eleven o'Clock.