New Clause. — (Amendment Of Section 4).

Army and Air Force (Annual)Bill. – in the House of Commons on 12th April 1923.

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In Section four of the Army Act, for the words "shall on conviction by court martial be liable to stiffer death, or such less' punishment at; is in this Act mentioned" there shall be substituted the words "shall on conviction by court martial be liable to be kept in penal servitude for life or any shorter period (not less than three years), or to such less punishment as is in this Act mentioned.—[Mr. Lawson.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Photo of Mr Jack Lawson Mr Jack Lawson , Chester-le-Street

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The Amendment has the very definite object of abolishing the death penalty. The Section of the Act lays down that there should be certain definite penalties, and a series of offences is set down in the Section. Previous to the beginning of the War it was the general opinion in this country, as far as the public at any rate were concerned, that the death penalty for desertion and other things was intended to apply to a good many armies in the world but not to all armies. It was known, of course, that as far as soldiers were concerned there was a death penalty in military law. I understand that when Volunteers and the Militia and so forth met at stated periods this Section was read out to the men who heard it so often that they laughed at it and no one took the matter seriously. if the average citizen in this country before the War had been asked with what he associated the death penalty he would have said it was something connected with the jack-boot armies, but not with his army. I think it was a shock to the ideals of the people of this country to find that their own sons and brothers were being shot in cold blood. I wonder if the public understands exactly how many people were shot. It has usually been very difficult to get to know exactly how far the matter went. Sometimes there was a little news by way of a letter, sometimes a case appeared in the Press, but during the past four years it has been the most difficult thing in the world to find out how many people were shot upon the field for various offences. This afternoon I received an answer from the War Office which, as far as I am concerned, will be invaluable information. I am informed that the number of cases in which death sentences were carried out for desertion on active service during the late War was 264. [AN HON. MEMBER: "How many under 18?"] It is true there was a much larger number sentenced to death.

An HON. MEMBER:

Is it in order for Members of this House to lie down on the benches.

Photo of Mr George Buchanan Mr George Buchanan , Glasgow Gorbals

Is it in order for Members of the Front Bench to use the Front Bench as a sleeping bench?

Photo of Mr James Hope Mr James Hope , Sheffield Central

It is consecrated by immemorial use.

Photo of Mr Jack Lawson Mr Jack Lawson , Chester-le-Street

The number of men who were really sentenced to death was well over 2,000, and it is to the credit of the Commander-in-Chief that the great bulk of the men were pardoned. In the case of 264 men, however, the sentence was carried out not for offences for which they would have been indictable in a civil court but simply for desertion. One thing was certain, there were no generals among these people. When Voltaire wrote his "Letters on England"—a book which made a considerable stir—Voltaire claimed the admiration of the people of France on the ground that occasionally we shot a general or an admiral to show there was no distinction among classes. He thought it was a matter for pride. I want to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that it was only the other ranks that were counted among these 264 men. There were times when the men deserted from their posts—a serious matter.

Photo of Mr George Bowyer Mr George Bowyer , Buckingham

Involving the lives of many others.

Photo of Mr Jack Lawson Mr Jack Lawson , Chester-le-Street

Is it not notorious that time and again there were occasions when generals during the late War were guilty of mistakes as a result of which thousands and thousands of men's lives were lost? What did they do on that occasion? They were recalled. I want to suggest that during the next war we should recall the other ranks instead of shooting them. I cannot understand why it should be said that a man highly placed who is guilty of the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives should be less guilty than a man who deserts his post and is only going to lose a few lives.

Photo of Colonel Sir Joseph Nall Colonel Sir Joseph Nall , Manchester Hulme

Does the hon. Gentleman allege that any man of the rank and file was shot for making a mistake?

Photo of Mr Jack Lawson Mr Jack Lawson , Chester-le-Street

I am going to allege that, too.

Photo of Colonel Sir Joseph Nall Colonel Sir Joseph Nall , Manchester Hulme

You may, but you cannot prove it.

Photo of Mr Jack Lawson Mr Jack Lawson , Chester-le-Street

And I will demonstrate it out of the mouth of a Member on the opposite Benches, a man who, with great feeling, in 1919 told this House that he had to sit upon a court-martial where five men were sentenced to death. Some of these men were young men eighteen years of age. Some of them were men whose wives and families were waiting for them at home. In many cases they were volunteers. War is barbarism, but there is nothing more barbaric than that a man should be tied up to a stake and. have twelve rifles levelled at him and be shot to death by his fellow countrymen. It is no wonder that it is very difficult to get information upon this matter. The hon. and gallant Member for North- West Hull (Colonel Lambert Ward) made a speech in this House in 1919 in which he asked the House to destroy the records of men who had been shot for desertion and in which he asked that the same care should be given to the graves of those men as was given to the graves of men who fell in the face of the enemy. He said: I should like to obtain an assurance from the Secretary for War that there shall he no difference made between the graves of those men who were killed in action or died of wounds or disease and those unfortunate men who paid the penalty of their lives under Sections 4 and 12 of the Army Act or who, in other words, were tried by court-martial and shot for cowardice or desertion in face of the enemy. I bring this forward because it has been on my conscience for some time. Courage was a very prominent feature during the war, but I think the bravest men were those who admitted very often that they were afraid. The hon. Gentle- man continued: It has been on my conscience for some time, as, unfortunately, during the very early days of the War, the early winter of 1914, it was my unfortunate duty to sit on a court-martial at which five men were sentenced to death. I do not know in how many cases that sentence was commuted. I felt I could not inquire, and I thought it better not to ask, but now that the War is over I want, if possible, to make amendment, because during the whole sitting of that Court I had an uncomfortable feeling that even with my limited knowledge of law I could have got each one of those men off on a technicality if I had been in a position to act as a friend. I knew nothing about courts-martial in those days. What does an ordinary Territorial captain know about courts- martial? Nothing, less than nothing. I was sitting on a court- martial for this reason, that the brigade had been decimated; indeed, it had been practically annihilated. Out of 130 officers who left England a month or two previously there was scarcely one left of sufficient length of service to entitle him to sit on a court-martial. The battalion to which I had the honour to belong was called upon to find a very large proportion of officers for court-martial duty, and I was called upon to serve. I ask the House not to dismiss this petition by the remark that these men were cowards and deserved their fate. They were not cowards in the accepted meaning of the word. At any rate, they did not display one-tenth part of the cowardice that was displayed by the crowds in London who went flocking to the tube stations on the first alarm of an air raid. These men, ninny of them, volunteered in the early days of the War to serve their country. They tried and they failed. In many cases they were the victims of circumstances. Admiral Byng is not the only man in history who has been shot in order to encourage the others. In many cases, it was necessary to make an example of them. There is one who showed extraordinary courage in stating the facts as he found them in actual practice, and I want to ask hon. Members to dismiss from their minds the idea that those men who were shot were cowards. We ask men to take on one of the most awful contracts that a man ever undertook. If a man in civilian life makes a contract, it does not matter very much if he breaks it. Indeed if he is a minor the contract in certain circumstances does not hold at all. If he is under twenty-one years of age it may not apply, but if a boy of eighteen years of age enlists he has to accept a contract which involves death. It. involves a great many things. It involves going on I o the barrack square and giving up his mind and his will completely. A barrack square is one of the most soul-killing places on God's earth. A boy by this contract has to take on himself the onus of giving his time and his body, and it involves even the penalty of death in certain circumstances. I say that is a contract we ought not to ask any man to accept. It is true he gets something in return. It may be said he may want adventure. It is quite true he gets it all right he gets more than his fill in a very short time. It may be said that he freely accepts the contract, hut that is not true. The great bulk of the men to-clay who have accepted that contract since the Armistice have accepted it under duress of the stomach. It is passing strange that in these days of ours of the twentieth century we will clothe a man, feed him, and give him a horse to ride upon if needs be, that we will give him a passage overseas, send him to sunny climes, that, in abort, we will do anything in the work of death and destruction but we will riot even consider the possibility of doing something for the things of life and construction. They accept this contract which involves so much, and I say they accept it under duress. During my time as member of the House I have heard a great deal about court martial. I have bad the report of the Army Select Committee on the investigation into court-martial methods, and it all reads very fine. In actual practice when the machine is going, and the guns are roaring, and there is chaos and destruction over hundreds of miles I think that in actual practice the arrangements as laid down for courts martial do not quite work out. On many grounds, from the point of view of the contract, from the point of view of humanity, from the point of view of fairness and justice, we ought really to consider the abolition of the death penalty. I would draw the attention of the House to one fact which came to my knowledge quite recently. I was talking to a man who had been in the Foreign Legion for some years. The average person would think that in the Foreign Legion punishments were very severe. I thought that resort to the death penalty would be greater than in almost any other fighting force, and yet I am informed by this man that there is no such thing as the death penalty for desertion in the face of the enemy or abandoning positions. [An HON. MEMBER: "I thought they got shot on the spot!"] As a matter of fact they do not get shot at all. The maximum penalty is five years for desertion. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is not so!"] I am relying upon my authority, and what. I am saying is in harmony with my knowledge of the man's veracity.

6.0 A.M.

There is another side of this problem—there is the ranker's side. It is seldom we get news even from the men who have been in the vicinity of the men shot. The fighting men themselves do not place any reflection upon these men. Here is an incident I am going to repeat to this House of a man who himself was in prison with a sentence of 10 years. He finally had his sentence repealed and was reinstated in rank as a non-commissioned officer through the good activity and influence of the right hon. Gentleman the member for Derby (Mr. Thomas). This man came back to his work as a signalman, and he tells the facts as he knew them. These are the facts as they are going among the workers and as they are being told from street corner to street corner by men who knew. I will read this article from the "Forward." Although some hon. Members may not have any very high opinion of the "Forward," I was never so much moved in my life as I was in reading this article. The man heads his article: Reminiscences of the Great War for Liberty: Devon Lads Shot at Dawn. They came from the same county as I come from, arid he tells his own story. This is the story, and I am going to accept the story because I have met him. He says: It all happened when I was a sojer: The month of December, 1916, found me in a filthy manure soaked barn—a British rest billet! All through one terribly cold wet day we had marched from the British front at Arras to this back area 20 kilometers behind the lines. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It is all very well for hon. Members to sneer and laugh. They are not going to do it on this matter. I have handled a serious matter in a serious manner, and I am not going to allow anyone to laugh at this serious question. At that time the ' war correspondent of the Daily Mail' had been sending home some ridiculous reports regarding the love and fellowship existing between officers and men. The flowery phrases from his ever-flowing beautiful pen depicted us as a beautiful band of brave British brethren, The people at home swallowed the soothing dope—the ancient armchair critics egged on every available pint of young blood—my mates laughed cynically. Well, said he, as I eat down to write a letter to the Harms-worth Press in order to tell the facts, I pointed out not how we were winning the war, but just exactly how we should lose it. I exposed the enormous wastage of our available forces, the diversion of battalions of bayonet strength to the whims and fancies of the officers; I appealed to the Mail ' to ginger up the War Office to the importance of utilising our men as soldiers, and not as wet-nurses to the star-glad gentry—that we might get on with or get out of this seemingly everlasting conflict. Of course my letter had to be censored. Honest idiot that I was, I made no effort to evade it. I did think first of dodging local censorship by using a green envelope,' but ultimately sent it through the ordinary channel.…Next morning I was put under arrest and hauled before the General.…When I first entered the improvised military prison I found it already occupied by five more Tummies.

Photo of Mr James Hope Mr James Hope , Sheffield Central

The writer appears to me to be attacking the system of Army punishments and sentences generally. This particular Amendment has only to do with the death penalty.

Photo of Mr Jack Lawson Mr Jack Lawson , Chester-le-Street

I was reading one of the few instances in which a man has told the facts as he has seen them. He tells us he was in an improvised prison with five men, and they told him what the trouble was. They said that orders had been given that if a certain post was lost somebody would be in for it. General Headquarters would want to know why. Well, it was lost. There was an attempt to use an elementary kind of gas cylinders, and so the Germans got round and it was lost. The men were court-martialled. Two were sentenced to 10 years and three of them were sentenced to death. And this is what he says: 'Come out, you' ordered the Corporal of the guard to me. I crawled forth. It was snowing heavily. 'Stand there!' he said, pushing me between two sentries. 'Quick march!' and away we went, not as I dreaded, to my first taste of pack drill,' but out and up the long street to an R.E. dump. There the police corporal handed in a chit,' whereupon three posts, three ropes and a spade were given me to carry back. Our return journey took us past the guard room, up a short hill until we reached a secluded spot surrounded by trees.…Certain measurements were made in the snow, after which I was ordered to dig three holes at stipulated distances apart. I began to wonder. …Could it be…? No, perhaps spies…perhaps oh, perhaps only my fancy.…The next scene a piercingly cold dawn; a crowd of brass hats, the medical officer, and three firing parties. Three stakes a few yards apart and a ring of sentries around the woodland to keep the curious away. A motor ambulance arrives conveying the doomed men. 'Manacled and blindfolded they are helped out and tied up to the stakes. Over each man's heart is placed an envelope. At the sign of command the firing parties, twelve to each, align their rifles on the envelopes. The officer in charge holds his stick aloft and as it falls 36 bullets usher the souls of three Kitchener's men to the great unknown. As a military prisoner I helped clear the traces of that triple murder. I took the posts down…I helped carry those bodies towards their last resting place; I collected all the blood-soaked straw and burnt it. Acting upon police instructions I took all their belongings from the dead men's tunics (discarded before being shot). A few letters, a pipe, some fags, a photo. I could tell you of the silence of the military police after reading one letter from a little girl to dear Daddy,' of the blood-stained snow that horrified the French peasants; of the chaplain's confession that braver men he had never met than those three men he prayed with just before the fatal dawn…I could take you to the graves of the murdered. Is it not a fact within the knowledge of Members of this House that time and again when men were pardoned they went forward and gave evidence of the greatest courage, demonstrating that 'anything might happen to the bravest men at a certain moment under certain circumstances? The time has come when, whatever may be the alternative penalty this House lays down, that the time has arrived when, in the interests of the men who may serve in the days to come, in the interests of the honour of this country we ought to abolish this death penalty, and I have great pleasure in moving.

Photo of Major Thomas Paget Major Thomas Paget , Bosworth

It is naturally with very deep feelings that any soldier or anyone who has been a soldier approaches this subject, because there is not the very slightest doubt that the most painful duty any officer can be detailed to is to sit on a death sentence court-martial and feel that in his hands rests the life of another man. I can assure all hon. Members of this Committee that if there is a possible loophole an officer can find, remembering the oath he takes, to save the life of the prisoner before him I am absolutely certain that I have never met an officer who would not avail himself of that loophole. I think the very numbers the hon. Member has quoted—I do not know whether the hon. Member included all death sentences or only those for desertion—

Photo of Mr Jack Lawson Mr Jack Lawson , Chester-le-Street

Just those for desertion.

Photo of Major Thomas Paget Major Thomas Paget , Bosworth

When one thinks there were five million of men under arms, mostly for the matter of between three or four years, and when we remember the magnificent discipline all through our Armies, I do not think we would be very wise to alter that system of discipline so rapidly as is suggested in this new Clause, because I do not think it would in any way effect the result we all desire. After all, war is an extremely bloody business, and in dealing with the contract which the hon. Member has alluded to we must remember that when all is said and done, it is a soldier's job to kill. After one had been out to the front for some time, one lived under absolutely un-believe-able conditions which have been rightly described as the life of a sewer rat, one slept and walked with death always as his nearest neighbour. A friend of mine who was in my battery said to me "Lor' lumme, guvnor, Dart-moor was heaven to this."

Photo of Major Thomas Paget Major Thomas Paget , Bosworth

Yes, he was a pal of mine and a pal I would own anywhere, and I am not ashamed to say I had a pal who had been in Dart-moor. There must be a death penalty which could induce a man, whose vitality was low at the time, not when he was well fed and feeling fit, but in the grey dawn when you are hanging on by your eyelids, cold, exhausted, hungry and deadly frightened to go forward. No man who has been under concentrated shell-fire for any length of time does not know what deadly fear is. One must have something to counteract that, and if one knows that the only alternative to not hanging on and chancing death in front when the moral is low and the vitality is low: when one knows that to run means only disgrace and death, that has a very great effect at the bad moments of which I am speaking. There is no alternative. Panic is like a germ; it spreads and becomes infectious. I know of more than one case where an N.C.O. saved the situation by shooting an officer who panicked. It is at a moment when the man's brain goes and his self-control goes that the death penalty not only saves the life of the individual but saves the whole situation and enables him to hang on. In regard to what has been said about the Foreign Legion, I wish to say that I had a brother officer who served in the Foreign Legion and he told me that the maximum penalty is five years spent in what is called a punitive battalion where, as it was described to me, death would be a happy release from the miseries a man has to undergo in some of the worst climates and doing hard manual work under distressing conditions and with abominable food.

As to what the hon. Member (Mr. Lawson) read from a paper, I can only say that the man who wrote a letter of that sort was a man who would be spreading disaffection all through the Service, and that is the greatest crime a man can commit. There may have been bad officers, and there certainly were, but I have always met with the most loyal support, and in many instances deep personal kindness, which men rendered to me outside their duty.

Photo of Mr Jack Lawson Mr Jack Lawson , Chester-le-Street

I did not wish to suggest that there was any laxity or tendency to over-strictness on the part of the officers. There are scallywags on both sides.

Photo of Major Thomas Paget Major Thomas Paget , Bosworth

I was simply alluding to the terms of the letter the hon. Member read out. I think there is in the British Army, more than in any army in the world, a less respect for the mere signs of rank and a great respect, whether it comes from the officers or the men, for the man himself and not for the uniform he wears. I therefore feel that with great regret in a way, I cannot support this Clause, because I do not feel it would in a great war tend to the safety of life. That it would have a demoralising effect at times when everything that a man wants is gone and when he is practically a lunatic is certain. He should have the fixed idea that in front was a chance of life, but that in going back there was nothing but death and disgrace.

Photo of Mr Joseph Sullivan Mr Joseph Sullivan , Lanarkshire Northern

I want to support the Amendment for the reason that sometimes mistakes are made. During a period of detention there would be some opportunity of a mistake being cleared up. I assisted the Government during the War by recruiting among the mining population and I know of a case of a young man in a mining village who could not get work for two years before the War because he was mentally deficient. Somehow or other he was passed into the Army by a doctor and the next we heard of him was that he was executed for deserting his post. That was murder and nothing else. The man was mentally weak, everybody in the village knew it and his mother knew it. If there was any justification for the death sentence it was in the case of the doctor who had passed him into the Army. I have nothing to say against the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Bosworth (Major Paget). I think his tone was good and sympathetic, but we on this side of the Committee think killing is a dreadful thing, and I was reminded in the course of this Debate that nearly everybody in this House believes we should have no more war. If we believe in that we do not require these penalties. I hope the next war is a long way off, but I want to warn the hon. and gallant Member that the probability is that the next war will strike mole people than the active combatant and that if the death penalty has to be served out to the soldier it might be possible that it will go behind the soldier and reach somebody else, and I sincerely hope the hon. Members on the opposite side, who we believe act from conviction and think that it is essential to keep this dreadful alternative, will change their views after the speech of the hon. Member on this side who told us about the age of the boy who joined the Army. Everybody knows there were lads of 17 and 18 who were practically schoolboys with none of the training and feeling of men. It is quite possible for these lads under dreadful fire such as the hon. Member has mentioned to make a slip and instead of getting a chance to be hurled into the unknown. People get to know that and feel strongly against a Government which commits crimes of that, kind.

Photo of Mr Rupert Gwynne Mr Rupert Gwynne , Eastbourne

We have listened to three speeches which have been of a sincere and serious tone, but so Far as I can see the criticisms in regard to the Clause have not been directed against the way the sentences are carried out, but rather against the penalty itself. There is, of course, a body of opinion in this country who say that under no circumstances should the death penalty be carried out either in civil or military cases. As long as we do recognise in this country that there are cases in which the full death penalty should be exercised I think nobody would really dispute the fact that if the death sentence should be carried out on the man who kills another man by fighting or murder, it should equally be carried out when we are in a state of war, and the various acts which are enumerated in these Clauses are carried out. For example, if the death penalty is to be carried out at all, surely a man who behaves treacherously or a man who imperils the safety of His Majesty's Forces is deserving of death. My duty is really to point out to the Committee that the Government cannot give way on this question of doing away entirely with the death sentence. I would point out to the Committee that under existing Regulations men who are sentenced to death have really a greater chance of leniency by court-martial than they have if they were tried by civil courts. What exactly is the process they go through? This matter was very carefully considered by an impartial body of men under the presidency of Mr. Justice Darling, and after taking evidence on this question they issued a Report and they say that during the recent War not a single officer or soldier was sentenced to death by a court-martial in the United Kingdom. Abroad a certain number of: death sentences were carried out. In each case they were carried out only after personal consideration by and upon the orders of the Commander-in-Chief, and after the Judge Advocate-General or his deputy had advised. Moreover, when considering them the Commander-in-Chief almost invariably had before him recommendations from the officers commanding the Unit to which they belonged, the Brigade, the Division, the Corps, and the Army. That means that if a man were condemned to death, before the sentence was carried out it was considered carefully by six different men, and surely a man had a better chance than if he had been tried by a civil court and had only the chance of a recommendation to mercy by the Home Secretary.

The hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) read a letter from a paper named the "Forward" in which a most distressing case was set forth. He cannot expect me to answer that, when he has not one tittle of evidence to prove that it was true. I cannot conceive that after going through the process which must have taken place before any man was condemned that this distressing case could have been carried out. To prove that I would remind him that on his own statement, out of a large number of cases in which sentence of death was passed, the death sentence was not carried alit in 89 per cent. of the men. That shows that leniency was exercised to a very full extent, and hon. Members opposite feel very strongly that the death sentence should in no case be carried out, but I would remind them that at the present moment a very few miles from these shores, in the Irish Free State, against which hon. Members opposite seem to have no complaint, more death sentences have been carried out in a few months than there have been in this country for many years. We have got the death penalty, and as long as we have got it we must see that we have an opportunity of enforcing it in the Army.

Mr. THOMAS:

I am one of those who believe that there never was an occasion when the public conscience was so aroused against capital punishment in general than at this moment. Recent events, and especially the hanging of that unfortunate woman, gave an opportunity to test public opinion in a very marked way. I hope the time will come shortly when this House will be given a chance of debating the general question, when I am sure the very strong volume of opinion in the House will reflect the greater volume of opinion outside for the abolition of the death penalty. The Financial Secretary rather challenged the statement of my hon. Friend in his quotation from the "Forward." That quotation was taken originally from the "Railway Review," and the boy mentioned I knew from birth. He grew up with me on the railway. He was on my engine, and I can remember the morning I got the letter intimating that he had received 10 years. The Member for Boss and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) was then at the War Office. I promptly went to the War Office and asked at least that an investigation should be made. The investigation was made. The lad was acquitted. He rendered good service after, and he told me that to-day he is prepared to go with any British officer and direct him to the spot where these lads were shot. You have only got to talk to this boy about the impression on his mind of the torture of these young boys who were shot. If hon. Members would only listen first hand to what took place there would be no hesitation about their voting for this Amendment. The objections briefly stated by the other side are that this penalty is necessary in the interests of discipline, and because it would be impossible to maintain an army if this penalty were not exacted.

That, in short, is the case presented from the other side. In order to test that let us visualise the circumstances which bring it about. My own boy did not wait. At 17½ he joined. To us he was a mere child. He knew nothing about the Army and had never handled a gun. His whole training had been in the opposite direction. When such a lad went into the Army should anyone wonder if his nerves would go under some terrible circumstances of fire. But under the military law such a boy could be charged with cowardice in front of the enemy. If there is substance in the case for the other side you must show that a boy when he was tempted to run away would say to himself "I will be shot if I do" and that is sufficient to make him do his duty. That is not only inconceivable but foreign to the facts of the case. I will challenge any right hon. Gentlemen to get up from that bench and say that they believe for a moment that these boys—and many of them were boys—thought of the punishment that would follow.

Photo of Major Thomas Paget Major Thomas Paget , Bosworth

I certainly think it would be the case, and in many cases I know it.

Mr. THOMAS:

I pay tribute to the sincerity and absolutely human speech of my hon. and gallant Friend. I will give the details of a case—for obvious reasons I am not mentioning names—where a. very young battalion under exceptional circumstances took flight. The officers had to go round and shoot. I know some who were shot—boys—not by a court martial. A panic had set in and no one would pretend that a whole regiment of boys under such circumstances would say to themselves that the death penalty followed if they ran away. The whole circumstances and atmosphere were foreign to such considerations. In voting for this Amendment we do not say that there must not be some disciplinary measure. We give you the alternative of penal servitude and, if you are right in your contention, and if a soldier has got this particular penalty in mind, will he say. "If I run away it will be penal servitude for life." We have got to look at this thing from the human point of view. We all agree that the cases are, happily very small in number. I believe the fact that they are very few in number show that that kind of offence or crime is happily rare in the Army. My hon. Friend gave indication of the kind of care with which this matter has been considered and he indicated that Mr. Justice Darling presided over a committee. But any member of this House, or a layman sitting down to review the circumstances of the death penalty, would be in an entirely different atmosphere, and the learned judge has been trained in a different atmosphere where he has dealt with murderers.

It is pointed out that the Judge Advocate General is always consulted on the matter, but the hen. Gentleman knows perefectly well this is a matter of psychology. The Judge Advocate General is not on the spot of the actual incident. You will be making a mistake in your own interests if you argue that them has been no change in the feeling of the people of this country on this point. If it is to be held you can only maintain your Army by the fear of the death penalty, and men will not do their duty in battle without it, all your argument about the love of country and people who are prepared to die for the cause vanishes. I am not going to say a word about the manner in which the Front Bench has met us in this matter. We have discussed very important questions without passion and with good temper on both sides. They have given us nothing. We have enabled them to have relays and to take rest and we have not protested. We have, how-veer, reached a stage where you should be more generous. You have been generous in speeches now the time has come to be generous in substance. You are being asked to consider something big and human, and whether you refuse it now the time will shortly come when it will be conceivably far better in your interests and in the interests of the Army to respond to this appeal which is right and just. The Government should show that it wishes to do what is right and just and not merely delay this until you are compelled to do it by circumstances which will be far more disastrous than the circumstances of conceding it.

Photo of Mr John Simpson Mr John Simpson , Taunton

I desire to point out that the whole of the arguments are equally applicable to the ordinary penalty of capital punishment in the Criminal Courts of this land. The penalty in the Army is an alternative penalty, whereas in an ordinary murder case before the Criminal Courts in this land the only penalty is death. In cases which might very often be far worse than murder there is the alternative penalty of penal servitude for life, and one cannot imagine a greater crime than a deliberate sacrifice on the part of a soldier to his regiment or to his country's interest. Why should a man escape the penalty when a man at home who has committed a single murder is hanged? It seems to me that we are liable to allow sentiment to overcome common sense in this matter. Every one of us has sympathy for the man who has failed by fear. At the same time, we have to maintain the punishment as a deterrent against the wicked man who runs away on purpose and causes disaster. In order to have adequate punishment in such cases, I think the sentence of death or, alternatively, penal servitude should be maintained.

Photo of Mr Thomas Duffy Mr Thomas Duffy , Whitehaven

I listened to the excellent speech of the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson). He has made out a very reasoned case for the acceptance of the Amendment and he has been fortified by another excellent speech from the right hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas). But in my humble judgment the best speech in favour of this Amendment was made by the hon. and gallant Member for Bos-worth (Major Paget). If I remember clearly, his statement was that a man who is cold, hungry and tired, whose mind was gone, who was really incapable of thinking, that the only alternative to compel that man to carry on was the fear of the death sentence that was behind him. I venture to say that in no country in the world, in no Court of Justice, would the sentence of death be carried out upon a man whose mentality was such. Not long since this House passed an Act to protect women who had murdered their infants from having the death sentence passed upon them, and when we are told that 89 per cent. of the death sentences that have been passed upon soldiers have been remitted it only shows the degree of carelessness in the way these sentences have been imposed. The right hon. gentleman who answered from the Government Bench said that he cannot do away altogether with the death sentence at the present time, and may I suggest, having regard to the fact that the first Amendment is for an alteration to Section 6 of the Army Act, that the right hon. Gentleman might find words that would be possibly acceptable to the Mover of this Amendment without accepting it in its entirety. If we turn to Section 6 of the Army Act we are told that a soldier who does violence to any person bringing provisions or supplies to the Forces or commits any offence against the property or person of any inhabitant of or resident in the country in which he is serving, such a man might have the sentence of death imposed upon him. I am not quite sure that that has been rigidly carried out in the past.

Only a year or two ago those unspeakable friends who were sent to Ireland in the guise of the Black and Tans destroyed and looted property, and I am not quite sure whether they were executed and shot down according to military law. The same thing applied to an earlier period of our history in South Africa. Another Section says that any person who irregularly detains or appropriates to his own corps, battalion, or detachment any provision or supply proceeding to the Forces contrary to any orders issued in that respect may also suffer death. I remember during the War one case that came particularly under my notice of a young boy who joined the Army when be was 17 years of age, and yet after he had been in the War for something like 18 months, and having been 76 hours continuously on duty, he was then put on sentry guard, but, unfortunately, fell asleep, and was shot for deserting his post. I venture to say that any system that imposes a brutal sentence of that character stands absolutely condemned. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby has pointed out, there has been since the War a great wave of sympathy, a great wave of humanity passing over us, and has even touched the War Office, the last place on God's earth where one would ever expect to find any touch of humanity. Field Punishment No. 1 has gone. Many things will have to go. The old Junker method of conducting the Army system of this country cannot be maintained to-day. It is entirely out of sympathy with modern ideas and modern demands. The time is now ripe when this House ought to accept, if not the Amendments in their entirety, and if they cannot do away with the death penalty altogether, that they should certainly revise the rules of these barbarous proposals. If we cannot abolish war we can make war at least as decent as such a thing will allow.

7.0 A.M.

Photo of Captain Reginald Berkeley Captain Reginald Berkeley , Nottingham Central

It is quite clear that no civilised country wants to exact the death penalty in the case of young lads, and I am sure that is not the intention of the Act of Parliament. I was very much impressed by what was said as to the possibility of some alternative formula which would satisfy the Mover of this Amendment. It occurs to me to ask whether the Under-Secretary of State for War would not be prepared, in view of the great success which was attained during the War by what I believe was called the Suspension of Sentences Act under which sentences of penal servitude and imprisonment—I do not think it applied to the death penalty —were suspended and the man returned to his unit and a report was made after a period and the case reviewed—whether the right hon. Gentleman would not be prepared to assent to a proviso in this Section of the Act to this effect: "Provided that the death penalty shall be suspended in the case of first offenders for a period of six months for the purpose of a further report being made by the commanding officer of the condemned man." I do not suggest that the phraseology is right; that could be drawn up by the Law Officers of the Crown.

Photo of Mr Henry Snell Mr Henry Snell , Woolwich East

It is a matter of great regret to the Members on this side of the House that the Financial Secretary to the War Office said this Amendment would not be accepted. It has never been suggested from these benches that it was an attack upon the officers who had the unfortunate responsibility of administering this law. The supreme penalty of the law is a dreadful thing for the men themselves; but it is even more dreadful for those who have to administer it. What we are trying to do is to offer an alternative which would relieve the officer upon whom this duty is imposed and to see if we cannot provide an arrangement whereby every security would be given to the Army and the commanding officer and yet delay hasty executions in order that other feelings and thoughts may intervene. The officer is placed, in present circumstances, under extremely difficult conditions. He may have known the man. whose execution he orders; he may have had a respect for him, and the man himself may have been, in ordinary vocation, a really good fellow. but has not been equal to the supreme test. I want to say a word about the human equation in this matter. In the last war all men within the possible age were compelled to serve in the Army, but all men were not physically suited for the tasks placed upon them. To pass a law of this kind and to shoot without discrimination men who offend is to assume that all men are equal in power of resistance to temptation and in nerve strength. Human beings do differ. Some are gifted in one way and some in another, and it is so in the matter of war. We put these boys in the dreadful position which has been described. Weariness, temptation, fear seizes hold of them, the power of the will stops and at a given moment they run away little frightened things. There is no stopping them, and to say that keeping all these penalties on the books would act as a deterrent to them is to misunderstand the nature of the crime. He who deserts in face of the enemy does so because his will power is less strong than that of other men. What evil result would come to the country or the Army if in place of the death penalty, we imposed a sentence of penal servitude for life? It would not, in my judgment, put any additional risk upon the Army or the nation as a whole. We know that leniency on the whole inspires confidence.

It occurs to me to ask the Committee whether it realises that there have been precedents for the thing we are asking the Government to do. There was a great man within the last century whose name will pass down in history and be revered by all who speak our language. He refused time after time to sanction the death penalties that his generals imposed upon their soldiers. When Grant sentenced a man with the death penalty, Abraham Lincoln steadily refused to allow it to be carried out. Does anyone suggest that in consequence, Lincoln got anything but the best from his army or that he would have got better things from it if he had allowed his men to be executed? Those who are students of American history will remember the case of William Scott of Vermont He was caught sleeping at his post and Grant sentenced him to be shot. But Lincoln said, "What good will it do to shoot him?" By that he meant "What good will it do America and humanity?" He pardoned the boy and the result was that a great wave of confidence passed through the men engaged in the army throughout America. They felt that the father of the State was in reality a father to them, and as he loved them, they loved him in return and gave him the best they had. I cannot help feeling that if we had something of the same principle in our Army it would bring not disaster but would relieve the officers of a very grievous and terrible burden, it would inspire confidence among the men, and our country and humanity would be the better for the change.

Captain BENN:

We all feel we have been engaged in a close discussion of an extremely difficult subject, and I myself am going to support a suggestion which perhaps might be accepted by the Government and might do something to case the difficulties we are all feeling in reference to this question. I must say I feel it is absolutely wrong to compare the offences for which soldiers are executed in war time to the crime of murder in civil life. That is a total misapprehension. I would rather he a man who had gone out voluntarily and then done something which caused me to be executed, than to be a man who had never gone out at all. I totally disagree with the view of the Financial Secretary to the War Office, who says if you retain the death sentence for some brutal, squalid murder in peace time, that argument has something to do with the infliction of the death sentence in the Army. The Army is quite different. The only argument that has any weight is that war is a state of terror, and to counteract one terror you must have a greater terror on the other side. Is it a well-founded argument? The Financial Secretary himself began to answer it when he said you must remember that in most cases the sentence is not carried out. If the soldier is aware that in most cases the sentence will not be carried out, what becomes of him? He knows that out of the thousands that have been sentenced only 200 have been executed, and, therefore, the argument that he himself is so overcome by the terror of execution that he faces the terror of battle loses a great deal of its weight. I think it is a perfectly sound rule of law that you should rather have moderate penalties which you enforce than violent penalties which are seldom enforced. As a matter of fact my own belief is that this argu- ment of terror loses much of its weight from the number of offences for which the penalty of death can be given. Under Section 6 of the Army Act of 1881 such offences number from A to K. Some of them are of a comparatively venial character. In reply to what the Noble Lord and the hon. Member on the other side said I do not think, as a matter of fact I am informed, that in point of fact in deciding who is to be executed and who is to be let off it is not so much the gravity of the offence that is considered as the need for enforcing discipline in the battalion. I think it is the Commanding Officer who ought to be punished if that is the state of affairs. If that is so what becomes of the argument that this penalty must be retained? I believe in some cases it is the bravest who run the risk of committing offences that bring this punishment upon them. At Suvla sometimes some men took some sort of opium that rendered them more liable to sleep.

The hon. and gallant Member for Central Nottingham (Captain Berkeley) has suggested that it might be possible to enlarge the little power which already exists in the Army Act of 1881 under Section 57, by which the confirming authority may suspend for such time as seems expedient the execution of a sentence. What I understand him to suggest is that instead of merely making it permissive for the confirming authority it should be made the right of the condemned person to have the sentence suspended for a certain period in which he could show the stuff he is made of.

Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS:

I am sorry I cannot agree to the moving appeal that has been made to me on this painful subject. The Debate has not really produced any substitute for this very terrible penalty, the necessity for which I am sure we all regret. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken suggested that we might impose the obligation on the confirming officer in the case of a first offender of substituting six months with his unit to try to give him an opportunity of making good. My hon. Friend has acted as a confirming officer himself and he knows how little use that would be in many cases. The other alternative put forward is that of penal servitude. I am afraid that is no alternative. It means exchanging the hell and danger of life in the trenches for the certainty of being kept in a place of absolute safety for the duration of the war, and an invariable amnesty after the war. That is no deterrent.

Mr. THOMAS:

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman apply himself to the point I made, to the question of the penalty for offences other than what would be called deliberate cowardice in face of the enemy, and to the effect that the penalty of shooting would have on the mentality of a man whose nerve fails him? Does he say that men are not shot for that?

Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS:

I would he far from asserting that men are not shot for that. You cannot see inside a man's brain. In the case of such offences as sentry sleeping on his post, from what occurred in the South African War and in the recent War there is no doubt that this particular class of offence does react very quickly to the deterrent of capital punishment. Lord Roberts in the South African War for a long time commuted all death penalties for men forsaking their posts. The same thing happened in Mesopotamia and in each case this offence became more frequent. One must be guided by commanders in the field who have found from experience that some of these crimes have a tendency to increase unless from time to time, and in the most sparing way possible, recourse is had to the extreme penalty. Cases are always examined with the greatest care. No man is ever shot for deserting his post if he has had a very tiring experience just previously. You must remember that the capital penalty is enforced not in peace, but in war. Our mentality has now become rather remote from war, but I must urge on the Committee the un-wisdom of throwing away in peace time a safeguard of the Army which those who have borne responsibility in war consider necessary.

Mr. MORRISON:

The position on both sides is becoming more clearly defined and the Government's position is that they desire to retain the death penalty as a means of imposing discipline and we deny that the death penalty is a means of enforcing discipline. May I give my own experience. When I landed at Le Havre an enthusiastic volunteer we were paraded and had read out in orders a statement that certain soldiers had been charged with a certain offence and sentenced to death, and that the sentence had been carried out and that was always read out to young soldiers arriving in France as a means of enforcing discipline and so far as I was concerned, and the same applied to thousands of others the effect was exactly the opposite and my feelings of enthusiasm began to die out when I found the methods adopted to enforce discipline. The first time I was under fire when a shell exploded, I was interested; that was all.

I have been in the Army and know I had no fear whatever when I saw the first shell burst. I was interested and anxious to see what had happened. After a time I began to be a little afraid and after I had been over eighteen months I had a feeling of fear. That was after I saw one shell kill seventeen men and I happened to be one of the lucky ones who escaped. After that the feeling of fear grew. A friend of mine was on three occasions specially commended for saving wounded men under fire. He got more and more frightened. When the Germans made the tremendous attack on March 21, we were driven back forty or fifty kilometres. He and I and others were on the road for nearly a week. We had slept little for days, had little to eat and were in had condition. We arrived at the town of Albert and we were put into wagons in the station to sleep. They were covered trucks. A German airman came over and raced up and down firing his machine gun. A bomb he dropped blew down part of a building at the side of the station. My friend lost his reason, jumped out of the wagon and rushed down the line shouting at the top of his voice. We dragged him back under cover. If that had happened elsewhere he would have been liable to be shot. I want to point this out. It has never been suggested that Australian troops were loss brave and courageous or stuck to their work any less than British or other troops. The death penalty was never applied to Australian soldiers and every one of them knew they were not liable to be court-martialled and shot as British soldiers were.

Photo of Mr George Hardie Mr George Hardie , Glasgow Springburn

No two men receive the same condition under the same nervous circumstances, and I gave you a case of an accident 250 fathoms down and one mile from the shaft. Twenty-four men had been cut off by an explosion, and of that number eight were boys of 14 years of age. Fear should not be classed in the same category as cowardice, and I have never met a coward yet. The young boys, not having the grip of their elders, had to be looked to first because their nerves went first. When we got out after eight hours and reached the surface, it was found there was still another section where men had to be relieved and yet these boys who might in the Army have been classed as cowards were the first to volunteer to go down again at the risk of life itself.

The man who has turned round under shock and tried to get away from the front, I would not call him a coward. If it comes to be a question in this Debate of failure at a post which may be responsible for one, two or three hundred lives, I want to give this parallel of an explosion occurring in a British mine. In these cases there is no suggestion of giving the death penalty to those responsible for neglect. We heard a great deal about the great nerve of the miner and how they dug in against Jerry when he was doing his worst. These men are employed in an occupation in which they are constantly in contact with danger, but the effect upon the nervous system of various men is different.

But let us take some instances about boys who were shot. When the boatload of boys was sent to Antwerp there was no suggestion that because Winston Churchill failed he should receive the death penalty when he returned. Nothing was said in relation to that side of the question. If your logic were to be carried out what would it mean? I heard an hon. Member on the other side make the statement of men who lost their heads being shot. In civil life when a man loses his head we build asylums to put him in and if you are going to carry out the logic of the argument it would mean that instead of having asylums you would shoot every man who is declared to have lost; his control. I see some eminent medical Gentlemen on the other side and the hon. Member for the London University shakes his head. He ought to know better. My argument still holds good. If you take care as we have always done in war of the wounded man why not take care of the man who has been wounded in another way—wounds that do not come from the direct grip of the bayonet or the bullet but received a shock. Why do you treat the man who is shell-shocked? Why not shoot him since he has failed to keep the brain together? You talk about the death penalty as being something that is going to make men fear leaving their posts. I know from my experience that that is absolutely futile. You do not instil courage into men by fear. You may keep the man there, through fear but you have not produced a courageous man by frightening him. The man who can be frightened is never courageous; he becomes a simple tool, for, the enemy. I know from practical experience that in places of great danger if, you started that kind of thing the whole of your company's working would instantly be swept away. I see that another hon. Gentleman shakes his head.

Photo of Mr George Bowyer Mr George Bowyer , Buckingham

I can give the Committee instances where that is not so.

Photo of Mr George Hardie Mr George Hardie , Glasgow Springburn

I would like, to have my hon. Friend down in a coal mine. That would change his whole outlook so far as what he has misread under the term fear. When you are in a place where there are millions of tons between you and the sunlight it is quite a different thing from being in a place where there is always a chance. When you are like rats in a trap it becomes a different matter and a different outlook upon the mind. Even the sailor has always the chance of being picked up but in the coal mine there is no chance. When you come to the word courage I say this, that if instead of shooting a man you took that man and gave him time to settle down you would find that that man would become the most courageous. Hon. Members know that the mind does not always develop at the same time and in the same stages. There are some boys who have men's minds at 16 or 18, and there are some men at 60 who have boys' minds. If instead of shooting you gave men the necessary time to settle down for the mind to reflect on the conditions you would get a better type of man.

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

I think all hon. Members who have been present through the greater part of the Debate will agree with me that practically every side of the question has now been. covered, and certainly as far as my judgment goes it has been covered very effectively. I make an appeal to the Committee now to allow us to take the Division and bring this discussion to an end.

Mr. THOMAS:

The Committee will recollect, that we are debating practically five amendments and not one. We had agreed that, while we would divide on them individually, we would not debate them separately. What I suggest is that we will be quite loyal to the arrangement that was come to and that there will be no attempt to debate the separate amendments but I suggest it is too early yet to take the division. After all, we are dealing on a question of life and death, and it would be a great mistake and it would cause misunderstanding outside if at eight in the morning Members who wished to speak were denied the right of saying something on this subject.

Photo of Mr James Ede Mr James Ede , Mitcham

The Financial Secretary to the War Office said that the Army Council and other authorities he consulted were unanimous that the death penalty must be retained if discipline was to be preserved, but 12 months ago the same story was told about Field Punishment, No. 1, and now we are told it can be safely abolished. The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Hope Simpson) said that men showed cowardice in order to create a panic. I do not know if the hon. Member meant that, but anyone who had experience with the Forces overseas will not believe any man did that. Anyone who had experience of the War overseas knows that it was very difficult, a few moments before zero, to tell who was to be the coward and who was to be the bravest man in the regiment I remember being paraded at Rouen the first day I landed in France by a sergeant-major who had his breast ablaze with canteen medals. He surveyed us and gave us one order, which I am bound to say we performed very badly, and he said, "They spoiled an (adjectival) fine Army when they let you civilians join it." It was that attitude towards the voluntary soldiers of this country which was responsible for a great deal of the trouble in the Army. I have the greatest admiration for the old Army. The new Army would have been nothing without the N. C. O. 's who trained them, but there was in that new Army a spirit which the old Army could not possess. They enlisted for that particular war. If they had been faced less with the terror of the death penalty, but faced with the possibility that they were going to fail, there would have been less trouble. If we are not going to carry this Amendment this year, I believe we will carry it next year. I believe we will be told next year that the discipline in the British Army is so fine that we can dispense with the death penalty.

8.0 A.M.

Photo of Mr John Simpson Mr John Simpson , Taunton

If I used the words quoted by the hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Ede) it must have been the late hour of the night or the early hour of the morning that caused me to do so. With the greatest humility I hold in the highest admiration every man who fought for me in France. I did not fight in France myself. What I intended to convey was this: If a man through treachery caused a panic that man deserved death.

Photo of Mr George Bowyer Mr George Bowyer , Buckingham

I just want to make one point which has not been mentioned yet. It is this: All hon. Members who have been out in France will bear me out that the first thing that struck one coming out was the front line. There was a feeling which one never had before in the front line. The important thing from the point of view of the Army was to keep that front line. There came certain incidents one of which I have been trying not to recall, but which I feel it my duty to recall. In this incident to my mind you must have the death penalty. There came a time when owing to the awful terror that was instilled into the man who did his share of duty in the trenches time after time these men shot themselves in the foot or shot off their trigger finger. Why I interrupted the hon. Member for Spring-burn (Mr. Hardie) was that I understood his remedy was that if a man shot himself to escape one had to be pitiful and take him back to hospital. But what becomes of the line? The order was given out that if there were any more

cases of self-inflicted wounds the death penalty had to be imposed, not because any one of them deserved it, but because only thus could the line be saved.

Photo of Mr George Barker Mr George Barker , Abertillery

I think that the theory that punishment prevents cowardice is a delusion. It will be admitted by men who have been in the Army and who have been at war that men who commit crime are not deterred from recommitting crime by punishment. It was my terrible experience to see men flogged for various offences, but it turned out that some of them were not deterred by flogging, and repeated the crime for which they had been flogged. I should be ashamd to say I was a Britisher if I thought it necessary to have some superior form of terror over the minds of the soldiers before they did their duty. If the soldier is in good health it has a great deal to do with his conduct in the field. In 99 cases out of 100 he will do his duty. You will never get the coward to go to the front. He is a malingerer and a schemer and will find 120 ways of getting out of going to the front line. It is a psychological mistake to inflict the death penalty. It would be to the honour of this nation if we were to lead the way in Europe by the total abolition of capital punishment on military grounds. Capital punishment does not prevent criminal offences. Murder does not decrease by the number of scaffolds you erect. In the interests of the Army and of the honour and glory of this country we ought to abolish this penalty.

Photo of Hon. Edward Wood Hon. Edward Wood , Ripon

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 173: Noes, 106.

Division No. 90.]AYES.[8.13 a.m.
Ainsworth, Captain CharlesBlades, Sir George RowlandButler, H. M. (Leeds, North)
Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)Blundell, F. N.Button, H. S.
Amery, Rt. Han. Leopold C. M. S.Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.Cadogan, Major Edward
Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel MartinBoyd-Carpenter, Major A.Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.Brass, Captain W.Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)Brassey, Sir LeonardChamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Lady-wood)
Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John LawrenceBridge-man, Rt. Hon. William CliveClarry, Reginald George
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Briggs, HaroldClayton. G. C.
Banks, MitchellBrittain, Sir HarryColfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Barnett, Major Richard W.Brown, Major D, C. (Hex-ham)Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale
Barns-ton, Major HarryBrown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)Cope. Major William
Becker. HarryBrown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)Court-hope, Lieut.-Col. George L.
Berry, Sir GeorgeBruton, Sir JamesCraig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)
Birchall, Major J. Dear-manBuckley, Lieut. Colonel A.Crook, C. W. (East Ham. North)
Curzon, Captain ViscountHutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)Reynolds, W. G. W.
Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)Jarrett, G. W. S.Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Dawson, Sir PhilipJones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.)
Doyle, N. GrattanKelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Du Pre, Colonel William BaringKing, Captain Henry DouglasRuggles-Brise, Major E.
Edmondson, Major A. J.Kinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementRussell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Ednam, ViscountLane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.Russell, William (Bolton)
Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir P.Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.Lorimer, H. D.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.Lloyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.
Falcon, Captain MichaelLumley, L. R.Sanderson, Sir Frank B.
Falie. Major sir Bertram GodfrayMcNeil!. Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)Sandon, Lord
Fawkes, Major F. H.Margesson, H. D. R.Shepperson, E. W.
Ford, Patrick JohnstonMercer, Colonel H.Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)
Forestier-Walker. L.Milne, J. S. WardlawSomerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Foxcroft, Captain Charles TalbotMoore, Major-General Sir Newton J.Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.
Furness, G. J.Moore-Brabazon. Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.Stanley, Lord
Garland, C. S.Moreing, Captain Algernon H.Steel, Major S. Strang
Goff. Sir R. ParkMorrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.
Gray, Harold (Cambridge)Murchison, C. K.Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Greene. Lt. Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)Nail, Major JosephSueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Greenwood, William {Stockport)Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)Sutcliffe, T.
Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)
Gwynne, Rupert S.Nicholson, Brig-Gen. J. (Westminster)Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Hacking, captain Douglas H.Nield. Sir HerbertTitchfield. Marquess of
Halstead, Major D.O'Neill, Rt. Hon. HughTryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Hannon, Patrick Joseph HenryOrmsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamTubbs, S. W.
Harrison, F. C.Paget, T. G.Turton, Edmund Russborough
Harvey, Major S. E.Parker, Owen (Kettering)Waring, Major Walter
Hay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)Pease. William EdwinWatts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)
Henn, Sir Sydney H.Pennefather, De FonblanqueWells, S. R.
Hennessy, Major J. R. G.Penny, Frederick GeorgeWheler, Col. Granville C. H.
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)Whl'e. Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)
Hiley, Sir ErnestPerkins, Colonel E. K.Winterton, Earl
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Philipson, HiltonWise Frederick
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Pielou, D. P.Wolmer, Viscount
Hohier, Gerald FitzroyPownall, Lieut.-Colonel AsshetonWood, Rt. Hn. Edward F. L. (Ripon)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardPrivett. F. J.Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Hood, Sir JosephRaine, W.Yerburgh, R. D. T.
Hopkins. John W. W.Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.
Hudson, Capt. A.Rentoul, G. S.
NOES.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Hayday, ArthurPringle, W. M. R.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Batey, JosephHenderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)Riley, Ben
Benn. Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Ritson, J.
Berkeley, Captain ReginaldHerriotts, J.Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Bonwick, A.Hirst. G. H.Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Bowdler, W. A.Jenkins. W. (Glamorgan, Neath)Saklatvala, S.
Broad, F. A.John, William (Rhondda, West)Salter, Dr. A.
Bromfield. WilliamJohnston, Thomas (Stirling)Sexton, James
Brotherton, J.Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)
Buchanan, G.Jones, J. J. (West Ham. Silvertown)Shinwell, Emanuel
Buckle, J.Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Burgess, S.Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)Simpson. J. Hope
Cairns, JohnJones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Sitch. Charles H.
Cape, ThomasJowett, F. W. (Bradford. East)Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Charleton, H. C.Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.Snell, Harry
Darbishire. C. W.Kirkwood, D.Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Davies. Evan (Ebbw Vale)Lansbury. GeorgeStephen. Campbell
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Lawson, John JamesStewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Dudgeon, Major C. R.Leach, W.Thomas. Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Duffy, T. GavanLee, F.Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Dunnico, H.Linfield, F. C.Turner, Ben
Ede James ChuterM'Entee, V. L.Warne. G. H.
Entwistle, Major C. F.McLaren, AndrewWatts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Foot, IsaacMaclean. Neil (Glasgow, Govan)Westwood J.
Gosling, HarryMartin, F.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)Wheatley, J.
Gray, Frank (Oxford)Maxton, JamesWhiteley, W.
Greenall, T.Middleton, G.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)Wilson, R. J. Jarrow)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Newbold, J. T. W.Wood. Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Groves, T.Oliver, George HaroldWright, W.
Grundy, T. W.Paling, W.Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Guest. S. (York, W.B., Hemsworth)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)Phillipps. VivianTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Potts, John S.Mr Ammon and Mr. Lunn.
Hardle, George D.

Question put accordingly, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 103; Noes, 175.

Division No.91.]AYES.[8.21 a.m.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hiilsbro')Hardie, George D.Phillipps, Vivian
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abortillery)Hayday, ArthurPotts, John S.
Batey, JosephHayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)Pringle, W. M. R.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Berkeley, Captain ReginaldHenderson, T. (Glasgow)Riley, Ben
Bonwick, A.Herriotts, J.Ritson, J.
Bowdler, W. A.Hirst, G. H.Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Broad, F. A.Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Bromfield, WilliamJohn, William (Rhonada, West)Saklatvala, S.
Brotherton, J.Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)Salter, Dr. A.
Buchanan, G.Johnstone, Harcourt (willesden, East)Sexton, James
Buckle, J.Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Shinwell, Emanuel
Burgess, S.Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Cairns, JohnJones, R. T. (Carnarvon)Sitch, Charles H.
Cape, ThomasJones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Charleton, H. C.Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)Snell, Harry
Darbishire, C. W.Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)Kirkwood, D.Stephen, Campbell
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Lansbury, GeorgeStewart, Gershom (Wirral)
Duffy, T. GavanLawson, John JamesThomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Dunnico, H.Leach, W.Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Ede, James ChuterLee, F.Turner, Ben
Entwistle, Major C. F.Linfield, F. C.Warne, G. H.
Foot, IsaacM'Entee, V. L.Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Gosling, HarryMcLaren, AndrewWestwood, J.
Gray, Frank (Oxford)Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)Wheatley, J.
Greenall, T.Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)Whtteley, W.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)Maxton, JamesWilliams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grenfell. D. R. (Glamorgan)Middleton, G.Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Groves, T,Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)Wood. Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Grundy, T. W.Newbold, J. T. W.Wright, W.
Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)Oliver, George HaroldYoung, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hall, F. (York. W. H., Normanton)Paling, W.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mr. Lunn and Mr. Ammon.
NOES.
Ainsworth, Captain CharlesCraig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)Hogg. Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)
Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North)Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy
Amery, Rt. Han. Leopold C. M. S.Curzon. Captain viscountHolbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel MartinDavidson, J.C.C. (Hemel Hempstead)Hood, Sir Joseph
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.Davies. Thomas (Cirencester)Hopkins, John W. W.
Astor J. J. (Kent, Dover)Dawson, Sir PhilipHoward, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)
Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John LawrenceDoyle, N. CrattanHoward-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Dudgeon, Major C. R.Hudson, Capt. A.
Banks, MitchellDu Pre. Colonel William BaringHutchison. G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)
Barnett, Major Richard W.Edmondson, Major A. J.Inskip. Sir Thomas Walker H.
Barnston, Major HarryEdnam, ViscountJarrett, G. W. S.
Becker, HarryElliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Berry, Sir GeorgeErskine. Lord (Weston-super-Mare)Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Birchall, Major J. DearmanErskine-Bolst. Captain C.King, Captain Henry Douglas
Blades. Sir George RowlandEyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M.Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Blundell, F. N.Falcon, Captain MichaelLane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.
Bowyer. Capt. G. E. W.Falle. Major Sir Bertram GodfrayLloyd. Cyril E. (Dudley)
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.Fawkes, Major F. HLloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Brass, Captain W.Ford, Patrick JohnstonLorimer, H. D.
Brassey Sir LeonardForestier-Walker, L.Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveFoxcroft. Captain Charles TalbotLumley, L. R.
Briggs. HaroldFurness, G. J.McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)
Brittain, Sir HarryGarland, C. S.Margesson, H. D. R.
Brown, Major D. C (Hexham)Goff. Sir R. ParkMercer, Colonel H.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)Gray, Harold (Cambridge)Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)Greene. Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.)Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.
Bruton, Sir JamesGreenwood, William (Stockport)Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C
Buckley, Lieut. Colonel A.Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.Moreing. Captain Algernon H.
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)Gwynne, Rupert S.Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)
Button, H. S.Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Murchison, C. K.
Cadogan, Major EdwardHalstead, Major D.Nail, Major Joseph
Canpion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.Hannon. Patrick Joseph HenryNewman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Cayzer, Sir C (Chester, City)Harrison, F. C.Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)Harvey, Major S. E.Nield. Sir Herbert
Clarry, Reginald GeorgeHay, Major T. W. (Norfolk, South)O'Neill. Rt. Hon. Hugh
Clayton, G. C.Henn, Sir Sydney H.Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Colfox. Major Win. PhillipsHennessy, Major J. R. G.Paget, T. G.
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard BealeHerbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Cope, Major WilliamHiley, Sir ErnestPease, William Edwin
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Penny, Frederick GeorgeRussell-Wells, Sir SydneyTitchfield, Marquess of
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Perkins, Colonel E. K.Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)Tubbs. S. W.
Philipson, HiltonSanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.Turton, Edmund Russborough
Pielou, D. P.Sanderson, Sir Frank B.Waring, Major Walter
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel AsshetonSandon, LordWatts, Dr. T. (Man., Withington)
Privett, F. J.Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)wells, S. R
Raine, W.Shepperson, E. W.Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.
Rankin, Captain James StuartSimpson, J. HopeWhite, Col. G. D. (Southport)
Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)Winterton, Earl
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)Wise, Frederick
Rentoul, G. S.Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.Wolmer, Viscount
Reynolds, W. G. W.Stanley, lordwood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)
Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)Steel, Major S. StrangWoodcock, Colonel H. C.
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.Yerburgh, R. D. T.
Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.)Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Roundell, Colonel R. F.Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray FraserTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Ruggles-Brise, Major E.Sutcliffe, T.Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel Gibbs.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)
Russell, William (Bolton)Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)

Photo of Mr William Greenwood Mr William Greenwood , Stockport

As a private Member and in view of the fact that the House was adjourned on Thursday before six o'clock and again finally adjourned at 7 o'clock and has been sitting all the,time since and that a great many Of my constituents are interested in a private Bill coming on Friday—is it possible for both sides of the House to accelerate business so that we may get on.

Mr. THOMAS:

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

I think the appeal of the hon. Member is one that has been made by the Opposition. I was not aware of the tremendous difficulty many of the supporters of the Government were in. I understand that the Government have made arrangements, especially with the Lancashire Members, that an opportunity would he given them to express the difficulties under which the cotton trade is labouring at this moment. Obviously there will be differences of opinion on the merits of the matter that should come on this afternoon, [An HON. MEMBER "Why are you blocking it?"] I now rise to give an opportunity to the Government of helping them. There is only one way in which it can be done and that if: to accede to the Motion to report Progress.

Photo of Mr William Bridgeman Mr William Bridgeman , Oswestry

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman realises that there arc other ways of meeting the wishes of my hon. Friend than the one he has just

suggested. I venture to think it would be quite possible to get this Bill without. reporting Progress and finish the business we hope to get and still leave time for the House to sit at the ordinary Friday sitting. We have had on the whole a very friendly discussion. I cannot accept the Motion to report Progress.

Mr. THOMAS:

I obviously would not have made this Motion but for the very legitimate request made) by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. W. Greenwood). I am sorry that my right hon. Friend cannot accede to the very reasonable request. I made, and there is no alternative but to go on with the business.

Photo of Commander Hon. Joseph Kenworthy Commander Hon. Joseph Kenworthy , Kingston upon Hull Central

There is one point which I think the Government is overlooking, and that is that this is the second occasion this week that the Government has filched away private Members' days. There was to have been an important discussion on the Carlisle experiment on Wednesday night, which, owing to various matters with which I need not charge the Government afresh, was lost to the House. Now there is the Cotton Bill, and to show that I am perfectly impartial I have a Motion down for the rejection of the Bill. I am standing up for the rights of private Members.

Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 107 Noes, 172.

Division No 92.]AYES.[8.40 a.m.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Berkeley. Captain ReginaldBrotherton, J
Ammon, Charles GeorgeBonwick, A.Buchanan, G
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)Bowdler, W. A.Buckle. J.
Batey, JosephBroad, F. A.Burgess, S.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Bromfield, WilliamCairns, John
Cape, ThomasJohnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East)Roberts, Frederick 0. (W. Bromwich)
Charloton, H. C.Junes, J. J. (West Ham. Silvertown)Saklatvala, S.
Darbishire, C. W.Jones, R. T. (Carnarvon)Salter, Dr. A.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)Sexton, James
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East)Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)
Dudgeon, Major C. R.Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.Shinwell, Emanuel
Duff, T. GavanKirkwood, D.Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Dunnico, H.Lansbury, GeorgeSimpson, J. Hope
Ede, James ChunterLawson, John JamesSitch, Charles H.
Entwistle, Major C. F.Leach, W.Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Foot. IsaacLee, F.Snell, Harry
Gosling, HarryLinfield, F C.Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Gray, Frank (Oxford)Lunn, WilliamStephen, Campbell
Greenall, T.MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon)Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)M'Entee, V. L.Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)McLaren, AndrewThome, W. (West Ham, Plaistpw)
Griffiths. T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)Turner, Ben
Groves, T.Martin, F.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)Warne, G. H.
Grundy, T. W.Maxton, JamesWatts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)Middleton, G.Westwood J.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)Wheatley, J.
Hall. G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)Whiteley. W.
Hardie, George D.Newbold, J. T. W.Williams, T. (York, Don Va1l"y)
Hayday, ArthurOliver, George HaroldWilson, C. H. (Sheffield. Attercliffe)
Hayes, John Henry (Edge Hill)Paling, W.Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.)Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)Wood. Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Phillipps. VivianWright, W.
Herriotts, J.Potts, John S.Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hirst, G. H.Pringle, W. M. R.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
John, William (Rhondda, West)Riley, BenColonel Leslie Wilson and Colons Gibbs.
Johnston. Thomas (Stirling)Ritson, J.
NOES.
Ainsworth, Captain CharlesElliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)Margesson, H. D. R.
Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark)Erskine. Lord (Weston-super-Mare)Mercer, Colonel H.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.Erskine-Bolst, Captain C.Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel MartinEyres-Monsell. Com. Bolton M.Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Wilfrid W.Falcon, Captain MichaelMoore-Brabazon. Lieut. Col. J. T. C.
Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover)Falle, Major Sir Bertram CodfrayMoreing, Captain Algernon H.
Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John LawrenceFawkes, Major F. H.Morrison-Sell, Major A. C. (Honiton)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Ford, Patrick JohnstonMurchison. C. K.
Banks, MitchellForestier-Walker, L.Nail, Major Joseph
Barnett, Major Richard W.Foxcroft, Captain Charles TalbotNewman. Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)
Barnston, Major HarryFurness, G. J.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Becker, HarryGarland, C. S.Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)
Berry, Sir GeorgeGoff, Sir R. ParkNield. Sir Herbert
Birchall, Major J. DearmanGray, Harold (Cambridge)O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh
Blades. Sir George RowlandGreene. Lt.-Col. Sir w. (Hack'y, N.)Ormsby-Gore. Hon. William
Blundell, F. N.Greenwood, William (Stockport)Paget, T. G.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E, W.Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.Parker, Owen (Kettering)
Boyd-Carpenter. Major A.Gwynne, Rupert S.Pease, William Edwin
Brass, Captain W.Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Pennefather, De Fonblanque
Brassey, Sir LeonardHalstead, Major D.Penny, Frederick George
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveHannon, Patrick Joseph HenryPercy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Briggs, HaroldHarrison, F. C.Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Brittain, Sir HarryHarvey, Major S. E.Philipson, Hilton
Brown, Major D. C (Hexham)Henn, Sir Sydney H.Pielou, D. P.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury)Hennessy, Major J. R. G.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.)Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)Privett, F. J.
Bruton, Sir JamesHiley, Sir ErnestRaine, W.
Buckley. Lieut.-Colonel A.Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.Rankin, Captain James Stuart
Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North)Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C.
Button, H. S.Hohler, Gerald FitzroyReid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Cadogan, Major EdwardHolbrook, Sir Arthur RichardRentoul, G. S.
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.Hood, Sir JosephReynolds, W. G. W.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)Hopkins. John W. W.Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.)Roberts, Samuel (Hereford. Hereford)
Clarry, Reginald GeorgeHoward-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.)
Clayton, G. C.Hudson, Capt. A.Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips.Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.)Rugnles-Brise, Major E.
Colvin, Brig.-General Richard BealeInskip, Sir Thomas Walker HRussell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cope, Major WilliamJarrett, G. W. S.Russell, William (Bolton)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Crook, C. W (East Ham, North)King, Captain Henry DouglasSamuel, Samuel (W'dsworth. Putney)
Curzon, Captain ViscountKinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementSanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A.
Davidson, J. C. C.(Hemel Hempstead)Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R.Sanderson, sir Frank B.
Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)Lloyd. Cyril E. (Dudley)Sandon, Lord
Dawson, Sir PhilipLloyd-Greame. Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipShepperson, E. W.
Doyle, N. GrattanLorimer, H. D,Smith. Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)
Du Pre. Colonel William BaringLoyd. Arthur Thomas (Abingdon)Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Edmondson Major A. J.Lumley, L. R.Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.
Ednam, ViscountMcNeill, Ronald (Kent. Canterbury)Stanley, Lord
Steel, Major S. StrangTubbs, S. W.Wolmer, Viscount
Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.Turton, Edmund RussboroughWood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)
Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-Waring, Major WalterWoodcock, Colonel H. C.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray FraserWatts, Dr. T. (Man., Wellington)Yerburgh, R. D. T.
Sutcliffe, T.Wells. S. R.
Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)Wheler, Col Granville C. H.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)Mr. Morgan Jones and Mr. John Robertson.
Titchfield. Marquess ofWinterton. Earl
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George ClementWise, Frederick