Orders of the Day — Finance Bill.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 14 July 1922.

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Photo of Sir Robert Horne Sir Robert Horne , Glasgow Hillhead

I was somewhat encouraged when I was listening to the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). He indicated that this Debate was the third act in a play, at the end of which the author would be required to say something. As I understand such circumstances, the author is called for in order to be presented with a bouquet, or, at least, to receive the acclamations of his audience. But on the present occasion, I gather from the speeches to which I have been listening, that is not the chief desire of those who wish to hear the author. I have, however, really nothing to complain of in the character of the criticisms that have been made on this Bill. Indeed, I feel I owe to the House a meed of gratitude for the courtesy and consideration which they have shown to me and the fairness with which all these discussions have been conducted. The Debates have certainly led to an illumination of all the topics with which we have been dealing, and have had the result of improving the Bill in many respects.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), for whose speech I certainly owe him some thanks, questioned, as he has done on previous occasions in this House, the likelihood of the Estimates being realised. The main criticism in that part of his speech was to the effect that he thought that I had over-estimated the revenue which would be obtained in the course of the present year. It is rather futile to put prophecy against prophecy. The statement of revenue, of course, is an estimate. It is the best estimate that I can make. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman thinks that the estimate is over-sanguine. Only the results can determine which of us is right, and certainly nothing that I could say upon the present occasion could lead to any elucidation of that question. He did, however, refer to the out-turn of the present year, in so far as it has gone. He indicated that perhaps not very reliable inferences could be drawn from the first three months of the financial year, and that, indeed, is true. He would be a very imprudent guide who would ask the House to form any definite conclusion of the revenue of the year upon the experience of the first three months. But he did ask me a question as to whether the Estimates were in any way affected by the results that we have so far seen. I am glad to be in the position to inform the House that, while not going into the matter with that particularity with which my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford (Mr. Wise) dealt with the figures, I am certainly able to say that, so far, the Estimates have been entirely justified. I do not wish to put it higher than that. They have been really rather exceeded in most instances, but, taking the matter as a whole, we have no reason to revise the Estimates as the result of our experience of the first three months of the financial year. The right hon. Gentleman went on to make the suggestion that the results as a whole might not show that balancing of the Budget which I endeavoured to disclose in the course of my Budget speech, and in that connection questions have been asked me on the matter of expenditure.

My hon. Friend the Member for the Ecclesall Division (Sir S. Roberts) sought to be assured that the Government were carrying out their campaign of economy, and, from the benches opposite, a speech was made by the hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Mosley) who, ignoring altogether the economies which are being effected in the present year, made a rather ineffective and inapposite criticism of the economies which were effected last year. He complained that of the £75,000,000 of economies which were effected last year, £61,000,000—I think be said—had been effected by reductions in the war services. I do not see why he should not give us credit for these reductions. It is one of the complaints of those who talk so much about economy, but who very seldom practice it, that we are holding on to war services which ought to be disbanded. When we do disband them, and effect economies, it is not erroneous to put those economies as one of the factors in the result which we achieve. In point of fact, the Estimates for the present year, in the shape of expenditure upon the Supply Services, are £242,000,000 below the Estimate of last year, and £172,000,000 below the actual cost of these services last year. I do not think that anybody who pays attention to these figures will say that we have not been effecting very large savings.

I do not say that we should stop there —for from it. It is our desire and intention to continue to make economies in every part of the public service where it is possible to achieve them. We have set up two Committees of the Cabinet, one presided over by myself, which deals with the civil expenditure, and the other presided over by the Secretary of State for the Colonies, which is going to deal with the expenditure upon the fighting services. It is my hope, and, indeed, my anticipation, that we shall be able to effect economies, not merely in the Estimates for next year, but in the actual expenditure of this year, as the result of these investigations. We are having "sketch" estimates submitted to us on the 25th of this month by the Departments—a very much earlier period than usual—in order that we may be able to guide and advise them, and, indeed, warn and admonish them in connection with their expenditure for the coming year. As I have said, it is my anticipation that we shall be able to do still further service in the way of bringing about the economies which the country at the moment so urgently requires. That upon the side of the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley went on to say that he had no real quarrel with the way in which the surplus brought out in the Budget had been dealt with, although he had certain regrets. He regretted, for example, that we were not able to reduce the duty on sugar. I share his regret. I should have been very glad, indeed, if we had been able to reduce the duty on sugar, but it was very expensive to achieve. It would have cost £11,000,000 to reduce the duty on sugar by 1d. per lb, and, accordingly, one had to look for other ways in which we could best employ such surplus as we have. I regret, as many other Members do, that we cannot reduce the duty on beer and also on entertainments. If it had been possible this year, one would have been very glad to do both of these things, and I certainly hope that in more propitious times we shall be able to accomplish what hon. Members desire in that respect. In the meantime, I am sure that everybody has been fully convinced that, in the circumstances of the present year, these remedies are not possible, and, accordingly, are not to be found in the present Budget.

I come to the point which, perhaps, has been the most debated, namely, the propriety of reducing Income Tax by 1s. in the £. The voices from the opposite benches have been very varied upon this topic. The right hon. Member for Paisley welcomed this alteration in the Income Tax, not merely because of its direct effects on the people who pay it, but because of the great relief it gave to industry throughout the country. He certainly gave his adhesion to the theory which was supported by the hon. Member for Tonbridge (Lieut.-Colonel Spender Clay), that the indirect effects of the remission of such a tax are immeasurably greater even than are the direct effects. I do not stop to add anything to the very pointed and cogent reasons the right hon. Gentleman used in support of that view, but I should like now to deal with some remarks made by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) in dealing with the same topic. His theory, of course, is that this is a rich man's Budget. That seems to be the phrase which we are going to hear repeatedly, and to find constantly employed in the propaganda which they are going to conduct in the country.