Officers Serving in the Civil Service of the Crowk Who are Not Serving in an Established Capacity.

Fifth Schedule. – in the House of Commons on 29th October 1920.

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1. The compensation which may be awarded to the officer shall be such gratuity or annual allowance (if any) as the Civil Service Committee think just having regard to the following considerations, that is to say:—

  1. (a) The conditions on which the officer was appointed;
  2. (b) The nature and duration of his employment;
  3. (c) In the case of officers who do not devote their whole time to the duties of their office, the amount of time so devoted;
  4. (d) The circumstances in which he is leaving the service;
  5. (e) The compensation which might have been awarded to him on leaving the service in similar circumstances if Part I. of these Rules had applied to him;
  6. (f) Any offer made to him of another office or employment under the Government of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland or the Government of the United Kingdom;
  7. (g) The probability (if any) of his having continued in office for a longer period but for the passing of this Act; and
  8. (h) any other circumstances affecting his case.

2. The compensation shall in every case be less than the compensation which might under Part I. of these Rules have been awarded to the officer on leaving the service in similar circumstances if that Part of these Rules had applied to him.

Amendments made:

In paragraph 2 (c), after the word "date," insert the words "not being more than two years after the date of the notice."

In paragraph 2 (d), after the word "sixty," insert the word "five."—[Sir L. Worthington-Evans.]

Photo of Mr Thomas Brown Mr Thomas Brown , Down North

I beg to move, in paragraph 4 (1), after the word "clerks" ["Clerks shall be deemed"], to insert the words "and assistants in the offices of the clerks of the Crown and Peace."

In this Schedule a number of officials in Ireland are made civil servants and are protected under this Bill. My Amendment seeks to include among them the assistants in the offices of the clerks of the Crown and Peace. They have done special work for a number of years. They have had a long training and they are the only men fit to do that work. I think it is only fair to them, considering the training which they have had, that they should receive the protection which other officials are given under the Bill.

Photo of Mr Denis Henry Mr Denis Henry , Londonderry South

I regret that I cannot accept this Amendment. These officials are not in direct touch with the Government at all. Their salaries are paid by their employers, and there is an allowance to the employers. It would not be possible to recognise them.

Photo of Mr Denis Henry Mr Denis Henry , Londonderry South

I will consider the matter further.

Amendment negatived.

Further Amendments made: In paragraph 4 (1) leave out the words "in the case of."

Leave out the words "to be officers serving in an established capacity," and insert instead thereof the words "shall be deemed for the purposes of this schedule to be Acts, to whom the Superannuation Acts, 1834 to 1914, apply."—[Sir L. Worthington-Evans.]

Major BARNES:

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph 4, to insert: (2)) If on the appointed day there is not in operation a scheme under the provisions of Section fifty-two, Sub-section (2), of the Irish Land Act, 1909, then for the purposes of the provisions of this Act relating to existing officers such of the officers or persons employed by the Congested Districts Board for Ireland as the Treasury have provisionally approved for inclusion in a scheme under that Section shall be deemed to be officers serving in an established capacity. I cannot say that I fully understand this Amendment, and in that respect I am not at all in a peculiar position compared with some hon. Members who proposed other Amendments. I have not the slightest doubt whatever I may lack in explanation of the Amendment will be supplied by other hon. Members. As far as I understand the Amendment the purpose is to put officers who are provisionally included in the scheme on the appointed day in the same position as officers who are actually included in the scheme, and they will be deemed to be officers serving in an established capacity and will therefore reap the benefit of the Bill. It would seem a very hard thing if officers who were provisionally included did not receive the benefits of the Bill.

Photo of Mr Worthington Evans Mr Worthington Evans , Colchester

I am afraid I cannot accept this Amendment. I very much doubt whether, if the hon. Member who moved had studied his own Amendment, he would have proposed it. What he is seeking to do is to give un-established officers of the Congested Districts Board rights which only established officers have at the present moment. While it may well be desirable to promote unestablished officers into a position similar to that held by established officers, I do not suppose the hon. Gentleman would wish to take away rights given to the established officers under any scheme formulated. I am not at all satisfied that the effect of this Amendment would not be to bring people on to the Established Officers Fund who have not contributed and have no right to be there. The Board are empowered to prepare superannuation schemes out of their own funds for their own established officers. My hon. Friend is trying to include officers who are not established.

Major BARNES:

The position seems to be that neither the right hon. Gentleman nor myself fully understand the effect of this Amendment.

Major BARNES:

I suggest, in view of the uncertainty prevailing, that before turning down this Amendment, he should give us some hopes that he will consider it on Report.

Photo of Mr Thomas Moles Mr Thomas Moles , Belfast Ormeau

I gather from the right hon. Gentleman that if a scheme had been formulated, put forward and approved, he would not have objected to the inclusion of these officers. If that is his attitude then he ought to know that it is not the fault of these men that a scheme has not been approved, but the fault of the Department in which they served, and which declined to facilitate them. I am sure he will not hold that they should be penalised for no fault of theirs when they have done all in their power to put themselves within the provisions of the Bill. The least the right hon. Gentleman can do is to keep the matter open, so that it may be taken up with the Department in order to ensure the approval of a scheme.

Photo of Mr Worthington Evans Mr Worthington Evans , Colchester

There is already a proposal which deals with the officers of the Congested Districts Board, and I am quite prepared to reconsider this along with the other Amendment. I want to do justice. The difficulty is that there are so many different forms of employment that to group them altogether might be doing injustice.

Amendment negatived.

Further Amendments made: In Rules—Part I (A), paragraph 2 (a), after the word "period" ["transitional period"], insert the words "or to the time when he would have reached the age of sixty five, whichever may be the earlier."

In Rules—Part II, paragraph 2, leave out the words "every case be less,' and insert instead thereof the words "no case be greater."—[Sir L. Worthington-Evans.]

Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.