Orders of the Day — GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND [MONEY] (No. 2).

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 22 October 1920.

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Photo of Mr Edward Carson Mr Edward Carson , Belfast Duncairn

I quite agree; otherwise it suggests an Amendment which I could not possibly support. There is the offer of the Government. I have asked myself, and I have asked those with whom I have had facilities of speaking if there is any other way that can be suggested, and I think not. I think this pure business. As regards the contributions of 18 millions, my right hon. Friend who addressed us from the Government Bench told us a great deal about the margin we are going to have. I doubt it very much. I do not like that pleased expression he has upon his face when he is telling us of this margin. I have never known the Treasury to give away a great deal of money in that off-hand kind of way. I am told that these figures will not work out in that way, but no doubt they will be corrected.

Then, as regards the settling of the amount of contribution that is to be paid as between the Northern and Southern Parliaments, I noticed the other day that my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) talked in a very sneering way of a little patch in Ulster that was opposed to separation. If you look at the Bill the little patch in Ulster—six counties out of thirty-two—is to pay 44 per cent. of the whole contribution. That is a good little patch. I think it is too much in comparison, but let me say we wish to pay our full share of Imperial obligations, and especially the terrible outlay that brought victory in the War, which was as much for us as it was for England. Therefore, we do not shirk our fair contribution; but when you sneer at us, as you are always doing, when you are trying to drive us by your policy to join Sinn Fein, which is your real anxiety and real desire, do please remember that when you come to legislate for us you ask us to pay 45 per cent. of the contribution for six counties out of thirty-two. I believe that will probably prove too much; but this I had not noticed, though I heard it with great gratification from my right hon. Friend, who stated, if I understood rightly his proposal, that at the end of two years the Exchequer Board will also consider that matter on actual figures, and I think that is a solution of the question which may very well be accepted.

Then, really, the important matter which is at the root, which will really be the foundation of whether this is to be a success or not, is the Exchequer Board. They receive enormous powers. I notice, among other matters which will be vital in assessing the contributions, that they have the power, which I think will be a very difficult one to exercise, of saying what is an Imperial expenditure and what is not. That will be an extremely difficult matter, and I know that my own friends in the North of Ireland have been taking a good deal of exception to the Exchequer Board. I have given a great deal of time and consideration to this, and here again I approach it in this way. I am told, "Oh, the British Treasury will dominate the matter. They have two representatives. The Government have a chairman and there is one representative from the North of Ireland and one representative from the South. I have always desired to maintain the whole connection between Ireland and this country as it exists to-day, and I cannot bring myself for one moment to the least suspicion that the Exchequer Board will not wish to do justice between the two countries. What would be the object of it? What would Great Britain gain by getting their Treasury—if it is possible to imagine such a thing—to give a prejudiced decision that would strangle a newly-formed Parliament trying to extend its influence, and do its duty towards its own country, and also, I hope, towards the United Kingdom? I say to my friends, who have put this with such force from time to time, "You cannot get on if you are always suspecting and suspicious," and I rather prefer to say to His Majesty's Government that we enter into this, as you have put it upon us, although we have not asked for it, with the fullest belief and confidence that if we are loyal in the working of this Act, and in doing our best for the portion of Ireland with which we are entrusted, if we are loyal in trying to make that Parliament and this Parliament work together, you will not be the people to obstruct our path. Rather, you will strain every nerve and certainly act liberally in trying to make our Parliament a success. There is no other way, in a complicated business of this kind, in which the matter can be worked out.

I should be very glad, if, on the Report stage, it were possible for the Government to find some definition or something they could lay down to guide the Exchequer Board on this question of taxable capacity. I do not know really what it means, excepting in this general way that you are to find out how much each should pay, having regard to the relative wealth of one and the other. That is a very, very wide matter. When you come to taxable capacity, you have to take a number of standards of comfort, of living, and wages as between the two countries, or two different parts of one country. I do not believe that is really an absolutely just method of ascertaining what is the proper amount to be paid by Ireland towards this country, or between the two Parliaments of Ireland itself, and I do put it to the Government that it would be well worth their while to devote the best energy of their experts in trying to see whether it is not possible to start these Parliaments without leaving something so very indefinite and so difficult to define, which will be the very foundation of the taxation between the two countries and as between the two Parliaments in Ireland. All I can say, in conclusion, is that I think the Government have acted wisely in putting down these Amendments giving power in two years, when we have found how the Parliaments are working in relation to each other, and in relation to this country, on actual figures and on actual results, to come to more definite conclusions. Meanwhile, I beg of the Government—it is almost unnecessary to beg of them, because it is common sense, but I ask them to see, through their officials, when questions of difficulty come up in the early running of these two Parliaments, that they shall approach what is put before them from these two Parliaments in such a sympathetic manner as will conduce best to the easy working of the new Parliaments.