Welfare Powers (Devolution)

– in the Scottish Parliament at on 19 November 2015.

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Photo of Jackie Baillie Jackie Baillie Labour

5. To ask the First Minister what discussions the Scottish Government has had with the United Kingdom Government regarding using the new welfare top-up powers that are being devolved. (S4F-03078)

Photo of Nicola Sturgeon Nicola Sturgeon Scottish National Party

The Scottish Government has continued to have regular discussions with the UK Government about the devolution of social security. Those discussions have been pursued through the joint ministerial working group on welfare, and the issue has been a key element of discussions at the joint exchequer committee. There are also regular discussions between officials.

The Deputy First Minister has written to the UK Government, asking for confirmation that any additional or increased benefits that are provided by the Scottish Government will not result in the UK Government simply reducing reserved benefits and, in effect, clawing back the funds that are provided.

Photo of Jackie Baillie Jackie Baillie Labour

I hope that the First Minister will eventually agree with Labour about the need to restore what has been lost through cuts to tax credits and that she will raise that issue in face-to-face meetings. In the meantime, other new powers are coming to the Scottish Parliament in respect of the cold weather payment, which is worth £25 a week, winter fuel payments for pensioner households, which are worth £100 to £300, and implementation of the energy company obligation.

I hope that the First Minister agrees that it is a national scandal that fuel poverty affects a staggering 940,000 households—some 2 million people—in Scotland. With all due respect, when will she get on with her job? Fuel poverty has increased on her watch. Will the First Minister admit that she will not meet the pledge of ending fuel poverty by November 2016, and will she tell us what she will do with the new powers to help families and pensioners who have to choose between heating and eating this winter?

The First Minister:

We will produce plans to use all our new powers in the interests of people in Scotland. Some of the powers that Jackie Baillie has listed—for example, over the winter fuel payments—give us the opportunity to look at what we do overall to tackle fuel poverty.

Jackie Baillie stands there as the representative of a party that, two weeks ago, had the opportunity to vote not just for sticking-plaster powers but for the devolution of tax credits and the budget for tax credits. Did Labour vote with the SNP for that? No. Labour members trooped through the lobbies of the House of Commons with the Tories to keep those powers in the hands of the Conservatives. That is the action of Labour politicians that people in Scotland are judging day in and day out.

Let us not forget that while others on the Labour benches—to their credit—were voting for £167 billion to be spent on things that matter, not on nuclear weapons, Jackie Baillie was voting with the Tories to renew the Trident nuclear weapons programme.

Jackie Baillie’s credibility on such issues before today was pretty ropey, but she probably ended any credibility that she had when she attended the Finance Committee yesterday and said, “My maths is shaky.” That sums it up.

Photo of Linda Fabiani Linda Fabiani Scottish National Party

I draw the First Minister’s attention to comments that were made by the general secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress, which recognise the importance of the financial framework to any additional powers. He said:

“it would be completely wrong for the Deputy First Minister to sign up to a mechanism for block grant adjustment which would structurally disadvantage Scotland.”

Does the First Minister agree that Jackie Baillie and her group should heed the advice of the STUC, stop mouthing some of the UK Tory party’s words and stand up for Scotland?

The First Minister:

Jackie Baillie and Labour stopped listening to the STUC on the day that they decided to go into an alliance with the Tory party in Scotland on the referendum.

I saw the comments of the STUC yesterday. Indeed, I saw the comments today of Professor Anton Muscatelli, the principal of the University of Glasgow, who is also warning about the dangers of an unfair fiscal framework.

Those are credible, independent voices that should be listened to, not just by Labour, but right across the chamber. Indeed, Professor Muscatelli was a member of the Calman commission.

We have made it clear that we will support a legislative consent motion on the Scotland Bill only if a satisfactory and fair fiscal framework is agreed between the Scottish and United Kingdom Governments. Nobody, absolutely nobody—not even Labour—could reasonably expect any Government to say anything else.

Photo of Patrick Harvie Patrick Harvie Green

If the new welfare powers are to be used successfully to tackle fuel poverty, as Jackie Baillie was asking for, they are going to have to work in concert with the money that the Government is spending on energy efficiency in the home, yet committee witnesses working in that sector do not appear to have had any opportunity to discuss with Government how that will work ahead of the budget or ahead of the national infrastructure project. Why have they not, and when will we hear the details?

The First Minister:

We will discuss those things as the powers are implemented.

I know that Patrick Harvie is a supporter on this and we agree on many of the issues, but even he must concede that the new powers on winter fuel payments, for example, are not going to be in place in the next financial year. We will work with stakeholders as we take over the powers to look at how we use them effectively.

Patrick Harvie is absolutely right to say that as all of the powers come to Scotland, it is vital that we integrate them effectively with the powers and resources that we already have.

I look forward to Patrick Harvie being a key member of the discussion as we take forward those plans in the months and years to come.