Transport (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 – in the Scottish Parliament at 4:30 pm on 29 June 2005.
Group 14 is on bus services. Amendment 80, in the name of David Davidson, is grouped with amendments 81 and 55. If amendment 81 is agreed to, it will pre-empt amendment 55.
Section 43(2) would amend the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001 to give local authorities in the existing Strathclyde Passenger Transport area powers to establish quality contracts and quality partnerships. Amendments 80 and 81, which are similar to amendments that the minister lodged at stage 2, would remove that provision.
In the light of the unique geography of the region and its transport patterns, it would be counterproductive if bus powers were to be held concurrently by both SPT—or its successor body—and the constituent local authorities. SPT has stated:
"Local councils in the west of Scotland have not exercised bus responsibilities since 1975—they have no expertise or experience in this area, and now to give them a discretionary ability to work at the margins of what will remain overwhelmingly a regional responsibility will be a recipe for confusion and potential conflict."
Furthermore, considering the spectacular failure of the quality contract and quality partnership initiative thus far—in other words, there are no partnerships or initiatives—it is hard to escape the conclusion that those powers have more to do with undermining the position of SPT than with any serious attempt to improve bus services in the region.
I move amendment 80.
It is true that there has been some to-ing and fro-ing since the white paper was originally launched, but I am truly astonished at David Davidson's amendments, because we have
Many of the constituent authorities have received funding from the Executive to improve bus infrastructure and it seems logical to give them powers to include that infrastructure in a quality partnership scheme. We have lodged amendment 55 because further scrutiny has shown that, for technical reasons, the bill as drafted would not have achieved the original intention. That further scrutiny has also persuaded us that concurrent powers would not be appropriate in relation to joint ticketing schemes. The provisions in the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001 provide for each local transport authority to determine what ticketing arrangements should be made available for their area. There can be only one determination, and we have concluded that it would not therefore be practicable to impose duties to determine on two separate bodies—SPT and the local council.
Amendment 55 therefore provides concurrent powers in relation to quality partnerships and quality contracts. The provisions on quality partnerships and quality contracts are permissive, and there is scope for different bodies to introduce schemes in the same geographical area. As members will be aware, the availability of concurrent powers is welcomed by a number of the constituent local authorities. The Strathclyde Passenger Transport Authority, as the body with responsibility for public transport in the area, originally had misgivings on the matter, but has now also accepted that the bus powers should be shared between itself—and therefore its successor regional transport partnership—and the councils in its area.
I too had some concerns about whether it would be right to have concurrent powers for quality contracts between the new partnership authorities and local authorities. Will the minister put on record once again the fact that the provision that we are considering is one on which he would expect there to be proper partnership? Does he have any concerns, in the light of the provisions, that there might be a need to determine who was ultimately responsible for a quality contract if there were a dispute between the regional partnership authority and the local authority, and is he confident that the issue could be resolved satisfactorily?
I am confident of that; but Pauline McNeill is absolutely right to say that there
I ask the Parliament to support amendment 55 and to oppose David Davidson's amendments; because of the agreement that I referred to, I am at a loss to understand why he lodged them.
On the holding of concurrent powers, the minister is right to say that there has been not a little confusion and not a few changes over the past months. However, the position that we have now reached is the right one. I believe that it is the right approach to delivering better services and better integration. I can think only that part of David Davidson's concern is that there might be conflict between local authorities and RTPs and that concurrent powers would make that insoluble. I do not agree with that. When disagreements occur, there is ultimately recourse to the minister for a decision. However, when it comes to joint working on transport initiatives it is not only possible for both sides to work together, it is common sense for them to do so. That is in the interests of their passengers and it is in keeping with the spirit of the bill. There has been some movement among some of the local councils in the west—and from SPT—on the issue of concurrent powers. Where we have ended up is the best way to take initiatives forward on a shared basis, in a manner that I believe will deliver better services and integration.
I am grateful to Pauline McNeill and Margaret Smith for raising an issue of some concern, because who knows who will be elected to what council in the future. West of Scotland politics are, of course, famed for their stability and non-contentiousness. In my years in local government there I came across nothing that was not argued about.
I have stated my case clearly. The minister is muddled in his thinking if he thinks that he can give powers to two sides and step back. What is the point of having to go back in and arbitrate or settle the matter by ministerial declaration? The minister is confused and I will press my amendments.
The question is, that amendment 80 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
There will be a division.
Division number 11
For: Aitken, Bill, Brocklebank, Mr Ted, Brownlee, Derek, Davidson, Mr David, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Fergusson, Alex, Fraser, Murdo, Gallie, Phil, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Johnstone, Alex, McGrigor, Mr Jamie, McLetchie, David, Milne, Mrs Nanette, Mitchell, Margaret, Monteith, Mr Brian, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, John, Turner, Dr Jean
Against: Alexander, Ms Wendy, Arbuckle, Mr Andrew, Baillie, Jackie, Baird, Shiona, Baker, Richard, Ballance, Chris, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Butler, Bill, Canavan, Dennis, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Crawford, Bruce, Cunningham, Roseanna, Curran, Frances, Curran, Ms Margaret, Deacon, Susan, Eadie, Helen, Ewing, Fergus, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fabiani, Linda, Ferguson, Patricia, Finnie, Ross, Fox, Colin, Gibson, Rob, Gillon, Karen, Glen, Marlyn, Godman, Trish, Gorrie, Donald, Grahame, Christine, Harper, Robin, Harvie, Patrick, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, John, Hughes, Janis, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Jackson, Dr Sylvia, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Kane, Rosie, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Leckie, Carolyn, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lochhead, Richard, Lyon, George, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, Maclean, Kate, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, Mather, Jim, Maxwell, Mr Stewart, May, Christine, McAveety, Mr Frank, McCabe, Mr Tom, McFee, Mr Bruce, McMahon, Michael, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Morgan, Alasdair, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Munro, John Farquhar, Murray, Dr Elaine, Neil, Alex, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Pringle, Mike, Purvis, Jeremy, Radcliffe, Nora, Robison, Shona, Rumbles, Mike, Ruskell, Mr Mark, Scott, Eleanor, Scott, Tavish, Smith, Iain, Smith, Margaret, Stephen, Nicol, Stevenson, Stewart, Stone, Mr Jamie, Sturgeon, Nicola, Wallace, Mr Jim, Watson, Mike, Welsh, Mr Andrew, White, Ms Sandra, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan
I remind members that if amendment 81, in the name of David Davidson, is agreed to, amendment 55 would be pre-empted.
Amendment 81 moved—[Mr David Davidson].
The question is, that amendment 81 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
There will be a division.
Division number 12
For: Aitken, Bill, Brocklebank, Mr Ted, Brownlee, Derek, Davidson, Mr David, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Fergusson, Alex, Fraser, Murdo, Gallie, Phil, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Johnstone, Alex, McGrigor, Mr Jamie, McLetchie, David, Milne, Mrs Nanette, Mitchell, Margaret, Monteith, Mr Brian, Scanlon, Mary, Turner, Dr Jean
Against: Alexander, Ms Wendy, Arbuckle, Mr Andrew, Baillie, Jackie, Baird, Shiona, Baker, Richard, Ballance, Chris, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Butler, Bill, Canavan, Dennis, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Crawford, Bruce, Cunningham, Roseanna, Curran, Frances, Curran, Ms Margaret, Deacon, Susan, Eadie, Helen, Ewing, Fergus, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fabiani, Linda, Ferguson, Patricia, Finnie, Ross, Fox, Colin, Gibson, Rob, Gillon, Karen, Glen, Marlyn, Godman, Trish, Gorrie, Donald, Grahame, Christine, Harper, Robin, Harvie, Patrick, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, John, Hughes, Janis, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Jackson, Dr Sylvia, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Kane, Rosie, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Leckie, Carolyn, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lochhead, Richard, Lyon, George, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, Maclean, Kate, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, Mather, Jim, Maxwell, Mr Stewart, May, Christine, McAveety, Mr Frank, McCabe, Mr Tom, McFee, Mr Bruce, McMahon, Michael, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Morgan, Alasdair, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Munro, John Farquhar, Neil, Alex, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Pringle, Mike, Purvis, Jeremy, Radcliffe, Nora, Robison, Shona, Rumbles, Mike, Ruskell, Mr Mark, Scott, Tavish, Smith, Iain, Smith, Margaret, Stephen, Nicol, Stevenson, Stewart, Stone, Mr Jamie, Sturgeon, Nicola, Wallace, Mr Jim, Watson, Mike, Welsh, Mr Andrew, White, Ms Sandra, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan
The result of the division is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 81 disagreed to.
Amendment 55 moved—[Nicol Stephen].
The question is, that amendment 55 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
There will be a division.
Division number 13
For: Alexander, Ms Wendy, Arbuckle, Mr Andrew, Baillie, Jackie, Baird, Shiona, Baker, Richard, Ballance, Chris, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Brown, Robert, Butler, Bill, Canavan, Dennis, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Crawford, Bruce, Cunningham, Roseanna, Curran, Frances, Curran, Ms Margaret, Deacon, Susan, Eadie, Helen, Ewing, Fergus, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fabiani, Linda, Ferguson, Patricia, Finnie, Ross, Fox, Colin, Gibson, Rob, Gillon, Karen, Glen, Marlyn, Godman, Trish, Gorrie, Donald, Grahame, Christine, Harper, Robin, Harvie, Patrick, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, John, Hughes, Janis, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Jackson, Dr Sylvia, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Kane, Rosie, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Leckie, Carolyn, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lochhead, Richard, Lyon, George, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, Maclean, Kate, Martin, Paul, Mather, Jim, Maxwell, Mr Stewart, May, Christine, McAveety, Mr Frank, McCabe, Mr Tom, McFee, Mr Bruce, McMahon, Michael, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Morgan, Alasdair, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Munro, John Farquhar, Murray, Dr Elaine, Neil, Alex, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Pringle, Mike, Purvis, Jeremy, Radcliffe, Nora, Robison, Shona, Robson, Euan, Rumbles, Mike, Ruskell, Mr Mark, Scott, Eleanor, Scott, Tavish, Smith, Iain, Smith, Margaret, Stephen, Nicol, Stevenson, Stewart, Stone, Mr Jamie, Sturgeon, Nicola, Wallace, Mr Jim, Watson, Mike, Welsh, Mr Andrew, White, Ms Sandra, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan
Against: Aitken, Bill, Brocklebank, Mr Ted, Brownlee, Derek, Davidson, Mr David, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Fergusson, Alex, Fraser, Murdo, Gallie, Phil, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Johnstone, Alex, McGrigor, Mr Jamie, McLetchie, David, Milne, Mrs Nanette, Mitchell, Margaret, Monteith, Mr Brian, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, John, Turner, Dr Jean