Due to changes made to the official Scottish Parliament website at the start of 2011, our parser that used to fetch their web pages and convert them into more structured information has stopped working. We’re afraid we cannot give a timescale as to when we will be able to cover the Scottish Parliament again. Sorry for any inconvenience caused.
Points of Order
2:30 pm
Cathie Craigie (Labour)
In the Official Report of the meeting of the Parliament of Thursday 8 March, I am recorded as not having taken part in the votes taken that day, and therefore as not having been present for those votes. I was present throughout decision time, and I did vote. Can you advise me what mechanism I can use to have Parliament recognise that?
Sir David Steel (None)
You have effectively just had that recognised. I thank you for giving me notice of your point of order. I tried an experiment this afternoon, before the meeting started, sitting at one of the desks in the chamber. If you do not have your card pressed right down to the bottom of the slot in the console, you may think that you are present, but your vote may not register. It is quite easy to do that—I have done it myself on occasions. You must ensure that your card is in, and that the red light in front of the card is out.
The second check that you can make is this: when the vote is on, the red light saying "vote now" flashes; it turns to a solid light when your vote is recorded. If the red light does not turn to solid—it will not do so if your card is not in properly, or if your card is dirty—you know that your vote is not recorded. You then have the chance to get up and inform the Presiding Officer. In such cases, I will always stop a vote and take it again. Your vote is now recorded by the fact that you have raised a point of order about it.
I am sorry that that happened.
Cathie Craigie (Labour)
I was 100 per cent certain that I had taken part in the vote on Thursday. I accept some of your explanations for the reason why my vote was not recorded. It is unfortunate for us as a Parliament, particularly given the importance of the votes on Thursday evening, that my vote was not recorded or counted. I appreciate the point that you are making, that my vote is now recorded, and that I have made the correction, but the fact is that
Sir David Steel (None)
First, you should not feel too bad, as a member of the Scottish National Party was in the same position. Therefore, if both your votes had been recorded, I am afraid that the vote on motion S1M-1725, as amended, would still have been tied. Secondly, we are of course considering ways to improve the system itself.
John Swinney (Scottish National Party)
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I seek your guidance on the events that we now face. At close of business last Thursday, I called for a statement to be made by the First Minister, in light of the fact that the Parliament had voted to implement a tie-up scheme for Scotland's fishermen. No statement was forthcoming. On Friday, I wrote to the First Minister, seeking all-party talks on how the Executive would implement the will of Parliament. There has been no reply to that letter.
Yesterday, my business manager, along with the Conservative business manager, argued for a parliamentary statement to be made by ministers on how they intended to implement the will of Parliament. No statement has been offered to the two parties.
This morning I lodged an emergency question which sought to provide an opportunity for the Executive to explain to Parliament how it intended to implement the will of Parliament, as expressed on Thursday. Regrettably, Presiding Officer, you advised me some time ago that you intended to refuse that request for an emergency question.
John Swinney (Scottish National Party)
I am coming to the point of order, Presiding Officer. On Thursday, the Executive, having refused to make a statement in Parliament, then went outside the Parliament—
John Swinney (Scottish National Party)
On Thursday, the Executive ministers refused to make a statement in Parliament, but, outside Parliament, said that they would not honour the will of Parliament. [Interruption.]
John Swinney (Scottish National Party)
I have spoken to many members of the public, Presiding Officer— [Interruption.]
Sir David Steel (None)
Just a minute. I would like to hear the point of order. However, what ministers say outside Parliament cannot possibly be a point of order. Let us keep strictly to the subject.
John Swinney (Scottish National Party)
I have spoken to many members of the public, who are mesmerised by the fact that the Parliament's will has not been implemented. [Interruption.] Can I respectfully—and with the respect that all members of Parliament should express towards the Presiding Officer—ask you what mechanisms there are for the Opposition to hold the Executive to account when it disobeys the will of Parliament, as was clearly expressed on Thursday?
Sir David Steel (None)
As members know, I do not give reasons for accepting or rejecting an emergency question. However, I will say that, before I rejected it, I received an indication that there will be an opportunity tomorrow morning to debate the wider issue. On that basis, I think that I took the right decision. I do not know whether you want to add anything to that, Mr McCabe.
Tom McCabe (Labour)
I will add only that we will move a business motion later today that will propose a debate on an Executive motion. The exact terms of the motion will be known later.
Sir David Steel (None)
I hope that that proves satisfactory all round.
Mr Swinney wants a second bite at the cherry.
John Swinney (Scottish National Party)
We are back to the issue that I raised with one of the Deputy Presiding Officers on the occasion on which the Executive asked to make a ministerial statement without the contents of that statement being known to the chair. I have lodged an emergency question with the Presiding Officer, the terms of which are quite clear—I have them in front of me. The Minister for Parliament has now been given the opportunity to introduce a motion, without my motion being put to Parliament. Where on earth does that leave the Opposition and Scotland's Parliament, which have been treated with disrespect?
Sir David Steel (None)
There will not be a ministerial statement. There will be a Parliamentary Bureau motion this afternoon. Members will hear what is proposed and are free to support or oppose the motion. There will be an opportunity before decision time to make your views known on that motion. We will then have a substantive debate. Of course, the terms of the motion for that debate will be in the business bulletin and everyone will know what they are.
David McLetchie (Conservative)
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Could you confirm that, in accordance with usual practice, our electronic voting system has been checked today and has been found to be in full working order; that in relation to the votes that were taken on Thursday, appropriate checks were made before and after the vote, and the voting system was found to be in full working order; and that the decisions that were taken on Thursday accurately reflect the will of the members of Parliament as expressed?
Sir David Steel (None)
We have already heard from Cathie Craigie what unfortunately happened to her and another member, and indeed to other members on other votes. We should remember that there were 10 questions on Thursday. We are all learning, including the Presiding Officers. In light of what happened on Thursday, we have decided to take decision time more slowly—we will pause between votes, so the attempt to catch the 5.30 train will have to become secondary to getting the votes absolutely correct.
To answer your question, on Thursday the voting system was checked in the morning and at lunch time, and in view of the narrowness of the votes, it was checked again, unusually, after the vote and was found to be in order.
Johann Lamont (Labour)
On the issue of tied votes and votes where there is some question as to whether people voted, you said that the votes of two members from opposing parties had been excluded. In the event of a tied vote, will the Parliamentary Bureau consider the possibility of a roll-call vote to be absolutely sure that the will of Parliament is being clarified in the vote?
Dennis Canavan (Independent)
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Will you or the Minister for Parliament clarify the statement about a motion? Will it allow for debate only on the fishing industry or also on the important matter of the accountability of the Executive to Parliament? It seems from some of the Executive's statements that it intends to flout the will of Parliament, which would set a very bad precedent indeed on a matter that the Parliament should have the opportunity to debate and on which it should assert its authority over the Executive.
Sir David Steel (None)
The straight answer to your question is that I have not seen the motion, but I am assured that it will cover both points. Is that right, Mr McCabe? [Interruption.] I think that I am wrong about that. Mr McCabe, will you enlighten us?
Tom McCabe (Labour)
The motion has not been drawn up
Sir David Steel (None)
That motion will provide the answer to the question that is being asked about the Executive's reaction. It will be the Executive's reaction to the parliamentary decision—we hope.
Phil Gallie (Conservative)
Further to the points of order, Presiding Officer. Will you confirm that your comments about the operation of the voting system have been reiterated time and time again over the two years in which the Parliament has been in being? Do you agree that the responsibility to ensure that a vote is recorded lies with each individual, highly paid member?
Sir David Steel (None)
While that is true, you must allow for human frailty, Mr Gallie. On one occasion a few weeks ago, I put my own card in upside down, so I am not in a position to criticise others.
Tom McCabe (Labour)
On a similar point, Presiding Officer.
I apologise for the continual references to last week, but, for members of the press and for members of the public in the gallery, it is worth clarifying the point that Mr Gallie raised. When a member of the Scottish Parliament casts a vote or presses a button, they have no way of knowing that their vote has been recorded by the electronic system.
Sir David Steel (None)
With respect, Mr McCabe, that is not true. The system does not tell members how their vote has been recorded, but it does tell members whether their vote has been recorded, as the flashing light turns solid. If the light does not do that, the vote has not been recorded. That was the point that I made earlier.
Cathie Craigie (Labour)
I seek some clarification, Presiding Officer. I accept what you said earlier, but one of the reasons that I was given for my vote not being recorded was that there might have been some dirt on my card, which might have caused a problem. How would Mr Gallie address that point?
It appeared to me that my machine was working perfectly well. As other members have said, there must be some clarification for members that their votes are registering.
Sir David Steel (None)
I take your point, Ms Craigie. However, you should watch the flashing red light, as it should turn solid.
Sir David Steel (None)
Let me say that the Parliament decided to extend today's debate by half an hour, because of the number of people who wished to participate in a debate on an important subject. Every point of order takes time out of a debate for which members wanted extra time.
I will take Mr Sheridan's point of order.
Tommy Sheridan (SSP)
I will be brief, Presiding Officer. When you responded to the point raised by Johann Lamont about having a roll-call vote whenever the vote is close, you said that that idea was being looked into. Can you clarify what you mean by that? If a roll-call vote were to be held, would that make a difference? If last week's vote had been a roll-call vote, and if it had gone against the Executive, would the Executive have carried out the decision?
Sir David Steel (None)
Roll-call votes have been discussed and no doubt they could be discussed again. There are serious difficulties with a roll-call vote, not least of which is that members might enter the chamber after the electronic vote has been called. It is not as simple as it sounds, but the proposal is not being dismissed out of hand.
Margo MacDonald (Independent)
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Does it fall within your area of responsibility to ensure that internationally accepted standards of probity and democratic practice are shown in the chamber to the people who elected us? That is what concerns me about what happened in the chamber last week.
Sir David Steel (None)
Let us not have a rerun of what happened last Thursday. I am keen to move on to this afternoon's debate. However, if there are strict points of order about the voting mechanism, or about anything else, I will hear them.
Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party)
Further to the Minister of Parliament's previous point of order, when he asked about the inability of members who press their buttons to be certain whether their votes have been recorded, can you give us a clear direction, Presiding Officer, that members who are not
Sir David Steel (None)
I do not understand that point of order. Obviously, if someone is not in the chamber, their vote will not be recorded.
I apologise to John Young, who rose earlier. [Interruption.] Order—let us hear him.
John Young (Conservative)
On a point of order, is not it true to say that the voting system was raised as a point of urgency at yesterday's meeting of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body? Officials assured us that, last Thursday, checks were carried out in the morning, at lunch time and in the evening, and that no faults were discovered. Therefore, those members who say that their votes were not recorded should have stood up at the time and raised that point. I have experience of doing that twice in almost two years: I stood up and my vote was recorded at the time.
My impression is that, as far as the corporate body is concerned, the mechanism was perfectly in order.
Sir David Steel (None)
That is correct, Mr Young, but there are still opportunities for votes not to be recorded, as we discovered.
Ben Wallace (Conservative)
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Could you clarify for us when a decision is a decision?
Ben Wallace (Conservative)
Is a decision made when the vote is taken or is it made after the incompetence of individual members is taken into account?
Sir David Steel (None)
No—votes are taken and are recorded. The Official Report shows the accurate voting record.
I suggest that we leave the matter and move on to the Housing (Scotland) Bill, which is very important and for which extra time was sought.