Clause 19 - Consultation

Public Service Pensions Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 11:00 am on 20 November 2012.

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Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Photo of Sajid Javid Sajid Javid The Economic Secretary to the Treasury

The clause sets out the arrangements for consultation on scheme regulations. It provides for standardised requirements across all the schemes and removes the current discrepancies between different ones, as was recommended by Lord Hutton’s Independent Public Service Pensions Commission. The clause will ensure that, before scheme regulations are made, the responsible authority consults the people, or their representatives, who are likely to be affected by them. The responsible authority must consult the same people before any changes are made to regulations.

The Bill will ensure that all the relevant people are consulted transparently and consistently, by requiring the responsible authority to publish a list of those people who the authority anticipates would normally be consulted as part of such an obligation. Authorities will be required to keep an up-to-date list, so that scheme members are clear which organisations normally represent their interests. Schemes will not need to wait until the commencement of the provision before they consult on scheme regulations; an earlier consultation will still satisfy the requirements of the clause provided it complies in all other respects.

Photo of Chris Leslie Chris Leslie Shadow Minister (Treasury)

This and the next clause relate to consultation. My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun has already referred to the fact that consultations are often disregarded. The Prime Minister has evolving ideas on how consultation should be truncated,  because it is wasteful and burdensome. That was in his speech to the CBI yesterday, but I want to set aside such thoughts for the sake of the Bill.

The consultation provisions in clause 19 set a lower hurdle than those in relation to the consultation required on protected elements of the Bill. For example, clause 20(2)(a) refers to consultation of the persons specified

“with a view to reaching agreement with them”.

That is more what I would define as meaningful consultation. If there is a consultation, it is best done as it is set out in that clause, which does not seem to be the case under clause 19. Will the Minister explain why he has not made the same commitment to meaningful consultation under this clause? He will not be surprised that it raises a question about what the Government are up to. Why are they not looking to make a commitment that consultations should be part and parcel of a dialogue that heads in a particular direction and is part of a process that will hopefully lead to a more amicable conclusion, so that the various parties involved will feel a settlement has been reached as part of a dialectical process reaching a particular conclusion, which might be acceptable to all parties involved in the consultation process? He has not made that commitment under clause 19, and therefore there are limitations to these arrangements. Will the Minister say what is going on? Why has there not been that level of commitment under this clause?

Photo of Sajid Javid Sajid Javid The Economic Secretary to the Treasury

The hon. Gentleman suggests that there is some kind of significant weakening on consultation or consent requirements when it is compared to the old scheme. I do not believe that is the case. First, the clause formalises and reflects existing practices and expectations. It balances the current discrepancies in consultation requirements across the schemes, requiring that all those who are likely to be affected are consulted, either individually or through their representatives. It provides what I believe to be a comprehensive and fair consultation standard. I would also point out that, when the consultations occur with a responsible authority, one cannot just decide the type of consultation and the standards it must meet.

All scheme consultations on regulations will be done in line with the Government’s consultation principles, as set out by the Cabinet Office. As set out in the guidance, the time frames for consultation will be proportionate and the time required will depend on the nature and the impact of the proposal. I do believe that the consultations will be meaningful in every case. The hon. Gentleman asked about language used in previous legislation. For the reasons I have set out—the Government’s approach to the matter and the consultation principles set out by the Cabinet Office—consultations will be meaningful in every case, as they should be.

Photo of Chris Leslie Chris Leslie Shadow Minister (Treasury)

I am not quite sure that sheds a great deal more light on the deficiency. After all, the Minister relies so heavily on the Cabinet Office principles and protocols of consultation—12-week processes, and so on—which we just heard the Prime Minister wants to rip up because they are too burdensome. It is part of the Government’s big, new idea—we have had the big society,  and all of those things—which is to put the country on a wartime footing and push to one side such encumbrances as consultation arrangements and Cabinet Office protocols. They were dismissed by the Prime Minister yesterday. It matters because the Minister references his commitment to consultation according to commitments made in the Cabinet Office protocols and documentation, which have the sword of Damocles hanging over them as we speak. I do not think that is good enough.

If we have commitments in clause 20 to have consultations with a view to reaching agreements, I do not see why that cannot be written on to the face of the Bill in respect of clause 19. The public are fed up to the back teeth with politicians promising to consult and then doing absolutely zero in response to their carefully worked arguments. On a number of occasions now, the public have seen Ministers going through the motions of a consultation but getting absolutely nowhere. If we are going to rebuild confidence and trust in the public policy making process, it would have been useful if the Minister could have made that particular commitment in clause 19. However, he did not, and we will have to find a way of encouraging Ministers to reflect on those issues on another occasion.

I do not wish to press the point on clause 19; we are coming to another, longer discussion about consultation arrangements in clause 20, and I hope we can move on to that.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 19 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.