Clause 27 - Short title, commencement and extent

Part of Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 4:00 pm on 5 July 2011.

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Photo of James Brokenshire James Brokenshire The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department 4:00, 5 July 2011

Good afternoon, Mr Caton, and good afternoon to the rest of the Committee. This is the final sitting of the Bill, and when we broke for lunch, it was timely in one sense, because I was just about to respond to an intervention from the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East on resources, which is part and parcel of amendment 126. He was pressing me over the indications from the Metropolitan Police Service about resources and the approach that was being taken. If time had allowed me before the luncheon break intervened, I was going say that the Metropolitan Police Service and I are clear that, from the commencement of TPIMs, we will have in place appropriate and effective measures to manage the transition from control orders.

I fully appreciate—I feel it as much as anyone else—the duties and responsibilities that we hold and fulfil in moving from control orders to TPIMs, and we have considered the issue clearly and have been closely engaging with the security services and the police regarding the preparations and the work at hand. I do not accept that there will be gaps. I appreciate that there have been debates about schedule 1 and all its provisions, and I recognise the points that have been made consistently during the Committee, but I do not intend to go over old ground or to repeat myself. I recognise that there are differences, but we believe that it is possible to manage the arrangement appropriately and effectively, and we are confident that will be the case when we move from control orders to TPIMs.

We had a separate debate about duration, another issue that creates strong feelings, which were expressed on Second Reading, too. Let me set out the Government’s thinking on why we did not include some form of sunset clause or annual renewal clause—a point reflected in contributions this morning. The review of counter-terrorism and security powers concluded that, for the foreseeable future, there is likely to be a need for measures to protect the public from the risk posed by the small number of people who threaten our security, but who  cannot be prosecuted or, in the case of foreign nationals, deported. The package of measures we are putting in place is the result of a lengthy and considered review and is being subjected to full parliamentary scrutiny during the passage of the legislation. That is part and parcel of today’s Committee. We believe that it makes significant improvements to the control order system and that it is a good framework that ought to be able to operate on an ongoing, stable and enduring basis.

A key difference between this Bill and the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 is the parliamentary process involved. The 2005 Act was taken through under heavily accelerated procedures, making annual renewal an appropriate safeguard. That is the distinction between the gestation of the 2005 Act and where we are now, and that will not be the situation with this Bill. Moreover, my hon. and right hon. Friends have concluded that there is an ongoing need for powers to disrupt suspected terrorists who cannot be prosecuted or deported. Clearly, Opposition Members reached the same conclusion while in government and continue to hold that view, albeit they would rather keep a different system in place than move to the system we have outlined. Regardless of that difference between us, I think all three main parties are in agreement on the fundamental principle. In such circumstances, the Government believe that Parliament should legislate permanently.

I heard some of the debate about timing issues, and the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge and by Opposition Members on that balance. The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East recognised that need for balance, and the question of whether a continual, year-on-year re-examination of the facts and circumstances was appropriate. It is interesting to note the comments of Lord Carlile:

“I would not retain annual renewal. The reality is that it has been renewed from year to year, and annual renewal has been a bit of fiction, to be frank. I think that Parliament should have the courage of its convictions and decide whether it wants a regime like this or not. It can always be repealed.”––[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2011; c. 23-24, Q70.]

I recognise that there are strong feelings on this issue. What I have said will not necessarily find favour with all parts of the Committee. We have heard the strength of feeling on all sides. We acknowledge and accept that the TPIM regime, as we would wish to put it in place, is perhaps regarded as exceptional. It is regarded as something that none of us would wish to have, if I can put it that way. We wish to bring people to justice. The mechanisms, whether control orders or the proposed TPIM regime, are not what would be considered the optimal solution. We want to bring people to justice using the criminal justice system and we want to see people prosecuted, but we recognise that there is an enduring risk. There is a necessity for those we are unable to deport and for those we are unable to prosecute in that way.

In light of the recognition of the nature of the measures, I will take away all the views that have been expressed by the Committee. I undertake to look at the issue of longevity and whether there is a need to examine the issue further. I will certainly return, having reflected on and considered that point in due course.