Examination of Witnesses

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders bill – in a Public Bill Committee at 10:45 am on 12 July 2011.

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Vicki Helyar-Cardwell, Juliet Lyon, Frances Crook and Andrew Neilson gave evidence.

Q 1

Photo of Philip Hollobone Philip Hollobone Conservative, Kettering

I welcome members of the public back to the room. I am sorry for the temporary inconvenience of having to step outside. I also welcome our witnesses to the floor. We will now as a Committee hear oral evidence from the following groups: the Criminal Justice Alliance, the Prison Reform Trust and the Howard League for Penal Reform, from which we have two representatives. For the record, could I please ask our witnesses to introduce themselves to the Committee in a big, loud, crisp voice, so that the Hansard reporters can pick it up?

Vicki Helyar-Cardwell: Vicki Helyar-Cardwell, director of the Criminal Justice Alliance.

Juliet Lyon: Juliet Lyon, director of the Prison Reform Trust.

Frances Crook: I am Frances Crook. I am chief executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform.

Andrew Neilson: Andrew Neilson, assistant director and head of public affairs at the Howard League for Penal Reform.

Q 2

Photo of Philip Hollobone Philip Hollobone Conservative, Kettering

Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I should remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick strictly to the timings in the programme order that the Committee has just agreed. I hope that I do not have to interrupt mid-sentence, but I  will do so if need be. Would any of the witnesses like to make a brief opening statement—it is not compulsory, but you are welcome to do so.

Juliet Lyon: I would like to say that the Prison Reform Trust welcomes many of the opportunities and measures in the Bill—I am careful not to say all—in a valiant and useful effort to try and sort out various messes that have occurred within the justice system, which we fear over years has responded to populist concerns. The inflation in sentencing has led to undue pressure on the Prison Service, on other criminal justice bodies and, of course, on prisoners themselves and their families. We think that the moderation and proportionality within the Bill are to be welcomed.

Frances Crook: I would like to echo that. The Howard League for Penal Reform does welcome many of the measures in the Bill. It is very important to exert downward pressure on the system, because over the last 10 to 15 years, the prison system has sucked in far too many resources and too much attention, and it is important to exert some downward pressure. We welcome the general thrust and think some of the tidying up is very important. We are concerned about some of the clauses in the legislation that I think are a bit muddled. In the spirit of constructive discussion, we would like to offer some helpful suggestions to the Committee about how that can be tidied up.

Q 3

Photo of Alex Cunningham Alex Cunningham Labour, Stockton North

I am learning the procedure as I go. Probation trusts across the country are facing severe cuts. Is there capacity within the service—in youth offending teams, for example—to manage the Bill’s aspirations for greater community sentencing, and what are the implications for public and victim safety?

Andrew Neilson: That is one of our concerns. The Government does appear to be looking to make cuts across the board in the criminal justice system. We do not have a problem with cuts that are related to reducing the prison population, but we have to understand that that does put pressure on the community end. The danger if we cut probation as well is that we are setting people up to fail. It is very important that money that is saved from reducing the prison population is reinvested into probation.

Juliet Lyon: It is important to note that, if the Bill succeeds in reducing prison numbers to something like an unavoidable minimum, there is the prospect or possibility of justice reinvestment. That would be something we would welcome. It is a subject that the Justice Committee turned its attention to last year. We would like to see moneys freed up for proper work by probation and youth offending teams. It is a very important question. It is also important to note that youth offending teams have succeeded thus far in working effectively with young people, to the extent that they have succeeded—along with others—in reducing the number of under-18-year-olds in custody by about a third within the last three years. That indicates the prospect for more work of that kind, particularly for 18 to 20-years-olds. We would share your concerns that success will be to do with implementation and adequate resourcing.

Q 4

Photo of Alex Cunningham Alex Cunningham Labour, Stockton North

So you think that there is a possibility for reinvestment? It seems to be about a cuts agenda, rather than a reinvestment agenda.

Juliet Lyon: We would encourage the Committee to explore that possibility, because the Bill will stand or fall, in our eyes, on whether it succeeds in reducing unnecessary use of imprisonment—obviously not necessary use—and whether it is prepared to work on the basis of reinvestment in other criminal justice agencies.

The last point that I would like to make is that not all the solutions are going to lie within the criminal justice system. There is some provision in the Bill already—for example, the extension of local authority seeing under-18-year-olds as children in care once they enter custody—but there is scope for more opportunities to alert local authorities as to their conjoined responsibilities. That would make a world of difference.

Photo of Philip Hollobone Philip Hollobone Conservative, Kettering

This session finishes in 35 minutes. The following people have caught my eye and will go in this order: Elizabeth Truss, Andy Slaughter, Robert Buckland, Dave Watts, Kate Green, Elfyn Llwyd. You know the time; let us try to make sure that everyone gets in.

Q 5

Photo of Elizabeth Truss Elizabeth Truss Conservative, South West Norfolk

You talked about reducing costs outside the criminal justice system, but surely there is a lot of cost just in the process of the system? Could you identify any savings that could be made in the National Offender Management Service and its structure and in the cost per prison place, where savings appear to have been made by contracting out prisons? So could you identify savings in the cost per place and the structure of NOMS that could contribute to reinvestment in the justice system?

Frances Crook: I think that small savings could be made by cutting regimes or staff numbers, but in the end that is not really going to make a huge amount of difference. Real savings can be made only by closing institutions and reinvesting that money in community provision and community prevention. We know that, for the majority of people who commit offences, that is a safe and effective way of managing them in the community. That is where the costs have to be diverted and where the better community provision will prevent people from committing future crimes.

Q 6

Photo of Elizabeth Truss Elizabeth Truss Conservative, South West Norfolk

Is it not the case that the cost per prison place is very high in Britain compared with other countries?

Frances Crook: I am not sure that is true. It varies from prison to prison and what kind of establishment you use. The cost in this country for provision for young people, for example, is very high, but you cut it at your peril. If you are going to lock up young people, the cost will be high because they have to be safe. You cannot do incarceration on the cheap, because the consequences are more crime.

Vicki Helyar-Cardwell: The Criminal Justice Alliance would add that the costs of reoffending in this system and the costs of reoffending by people who have come out of custody are extremely high. We have long campaigned for community sentences that actually achieve a lower reoffending rate than often short custodial sentences. There is a significant saving that can be made from that move towards community sentences as opposed to prison sentences.

Juliet Lyon: I simply want to add that Ministry of Justice research shows that community sentences are now outperforming a short prison sentence by at least 7%. That is heartening news, although there is further scope. To answer your point directly, I am very much with colleagues here that if you reduce the £45,000 average cost of a prison place—over £50,000 for women and considerably higher for children—you risk even higher reoffending rates. So it is a very short-term saving for a very long-term cost.

Andrew Neilson: I think also that if you look at contracting out—the recent example is Birmingham, which is a large prison, with 1,500 prisoners and a lot of problems—a succession of inspectorate reports have said that the problems in that prison are around safety and staff-prisoner relationships. These are both things that are related to the amount of staff in a prison—there are not enough. What we have seen is that the private contractor that will now be running that prison is actually cutting staff, so those problems will increase. So there are not just problems with reoffending, but problems in institutions that will be exacerbated potentially.

Q 7

Photo of Andrew Slaughter Andrew Slaughter Shadow Minister (Justice)

May I go back to finance? What you describe is a virtuous circle whereby the money saved from prison places is invested in community punishments, which in turn may prevent reoffending, which in turn may save money. There are some signs that that has been happening in youth offending, with places being taken out. What I suggest, and I ask you to comment on, is that this Bill is a vicious circle downwards, because the money is simply being taken out of the system. We have cuts of up to 10% in probation services and average cuts of 18% in youth offending teams this year. Do you not think that those services are being set up to fail? New responsibilities are being put on those bodies by the Bill, but they will have many fewer resources to deal with them?

Juliet Lyon: It certainly seems to us that we currently place far too much store on what imprisonment can achieve. Consequently, we welcome the idea that prison would take a disproportionate proportion of the cuts if, and only if, numbers can be reduced. One would certainly not be arguing for fewer staff or less effective institutions. Far from it. But it is true that until a whole institution is closed significant savings cannot be made. It seems to us that the Ministry of Justice should be working towards rationalising the prison estate and, on the basis of a thorough-going review, making clear decisions about how many establishments they need, in what order and where those establishments have to be sited. That is where the savings will come. Without that, it is going to be very piecemeal and difficult to achieve.

Q 8

Photo of Andrew Slaughter Andrew Slaughter Shadow Minister (Justice)

Perhaps others wish to comment on this as well. Let us say those savings are made and are going to the Treasury. What then happens? There are very high levels of cuts, particularly in youth offending teams; what do you think the consequences will be in terms of rehabilitation on the ability of those services to deal with their current work load or an additional work load? There are no extra resources being put in.

Frances Crook: It will put enormous pressure on local authorities and other people. We would like to see a downward pressure so that resources are diverted to prevention. I would much prefer that the crimes were not committed in the first place rather than trying to pick up the pieces afterwards. At the moment the criminal justice system puts huge resources into cleaning up the mess after, and tends to make it worse rather than better. We want to see a downward pressure in prevention. We have seen that in the youth justice system. Not only are fewer children going into custody, which in itself is good because it is cheaper and better for the kids and the community; but we have also seen a reduction in first-time entrants and arrest rates. We need a downward pressure all the way down. You are absolutely right. The resources cannot just be taken out of one place and put back into the Treasury. What has to happen is that those resources have to be put into the prevention side, into children’s services for example, so that children do not commit the crimes and do not get into trouble in the first place: fewer victims, less crime, fewer people in prison and safer communities.

Vicki Helyar-Cardwell: The Criminal Justice Alliance does not necessarily focus on under-18s but we do have a serious concern as a member of the Transition to Adulthood Alliance about 18 to 20-year-olds, or 18 to 25-year olds, who consume a large proportion of probation resources. One study found that about a third of probation time and resources were spent on that young adult age group. There is a need for investment in that age group and perhaps a national strategy to ensure that we are doing the right thing by older teenagers and young adults. There is an issue about reinvestment.

Photo of Andrew Slaughter Andrew Slaughter Shadow Minister (Justice)

I could go on if you are happy for me to do so, Mr Hollobone, but I can come back at the end if others want to ask questions.

Q 9

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland Conservative, South Swindon

It is indeed a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I think we all agree that the lack of opportunity for prisoners to use their term in custody productively has been a real problem. Does the panel welcome the proposed implementation of the Prisoners’ Earnings Act 1996? If so, can it help to shed light on why we have had to wait 15 years for that implementation?

Frances Crook: I have campaigned for work in prisons for 15 years, and I think that long-term, adult male prisoners should have the opportunity to do a day’s work and should be contributing to society by paying tax. The Prisoners’ Earnings Act was promoted by my local Member of Parliament. I told him at the time it was not the right answer to the question and I still do not think it is. I welcome the Government’s commitment to this. It is a fantastic opportunity. We could be showing the world how long-term, adult male prisoners could be contributing—keeping their families, paying some contribution to victims’ charities and doing an honest day’s work for an honest day’s pay—rather than lying idle on their bunk for 20 years at a cost of £2 million to the taxpayer. That is a problem and work in prisons is a solution. However, not only is the Prisoners’ Earnings Act flawed, I think the clauses in this Bill are misguided. It is not necessary to have legislation on this; the powers already exist. In fact, I am in discussion with a prison at the moment about starting a business inside a prison.  Legislation is not required. There is already the power within the Prison Service to allow people to work. They can be properly employed by outside companies, paid the rate for the job and pay tax. That way they would not undermine or depress wages, nor would they be anti-competitive. The legislation exists; it is not necessary to bring in other legislation. We are very keen to work with the Government on this and welcome the proposals, but I do not think the clauses in this Bill are required.

Juliet Lyon: We certainly welcome the idea that time should be well spent, rather than wasted, when people are in prison. Too often that is the case; too little happens in prison and a remarkable amount of time is wasted by sheer procedural efforts to keep the institution ticking over and safe.

We have recently done some research with prisoners and their families called “Time is Money” looking at financial exclusion of people both while they are in prison, when debts can continue to mount up, and when they leave and cannot get bank accounts or insurance, or they leave with a discharge grant which cannot possibly last the two weeks after they leave. Alongside the Prisoners’ Earnings Act, and the emphasis on responsible work in prison, we have to think about the ways we sometimes make it impossible for people to take responsibility, either in jail or on release from jail.

The other publication we produced is “Time Well Spent”, where we have done a survey across the prison estate, looking at opportunities for volunteering. This is not instead of work; it is as well as work. We commend to the Committee the work of the Samaritan Listeners and the work of the Toe By Toe organisation and others, where prisoners act as mentors and take a tremendous amount of responsibility for saving lives and helping others.

We would like to see a responsible environment, reserved for serious and violent offenders, where they could engage with staff trained appropriately and supported to encourage that kind of institution. We are very far from that. That is the only caveat I would like to add. Although the Bill is aspirational in this instance, we are a long way from achieving that. Currently, the average wage for a prisoner is between £8 and £10 a week, which is woefully inadequate.

Vicki Helyar-Cardwell: We echo that and welcome the work in prisons agenda, and the contribution to a victims fund. The only concern we want to raise around this issue is subsection (4)(c) of clause 103, which refers to money to be paid to the prisoner

“before or after…release on fulfilment by the prisoner of prescribed conditions.”

We want confirmation and clarity that on release, the prisoner—an ex-prisoner—would receive the money that they had earned legitimately in prison. It would be unfair to add further conditions on prisoners, but we fully support the work agenda.

Q 10

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland Conservative, South Swindon

I was very interested in what Frances Crook had to say about the necessity for legislation. As somebody who likes to hesitate before new legislation, I am in sympathy with her. Can the point not be made, however, that in terms of the hypothecation of the earnings, because some of the earnings will be transferred, hopefully, to the victims of crime, some provision has to be made via amendments to the prison rules, which necessitates some legislation in the Bill?

Frances Crook: I think I am the only person who has ever run a real business inside a prison and employed prisoners on a real wage on the same terms and conditions as I was employed, including holiday pay and sick pay. We deducted tax and had a voluntary compact with our prisoner employees to deduct 30% of their net wages and pay that into a victims fund. As a condition of being able to apply to go to a working prison, prisoners would sign up to having a proportion of their wages deducted to go to a fund for victims, which would be a symbolic in lieu of bed and board, because bed and board costs cannot be deducted. It is possible to do that.

The important thing is that prisoners should be employed by outside bodies, not by the Prison Service. This Bill is replicating the flaw that assumes that it is the Prison Service that will be subcontracting the industries from outside businesses and then employing prisoners again. The Prison Service, with the best will in the world, cannot run businesses and they cannot employ people. They failed for 100 years and they will continue failing. We need to get outside businesses employing prisoners inside prisons on real wages, on real businesses, in the real world. That way, you do not need the legislation at all.

Photo of Philip Hollobone Philip Hollobone Conservative, Kettering

We have 20 minutes left of our session with you. Your evidence is generating interest, as it always does. We now have six Members lined up to ask questions in the following order: Dave Watts, Kate Green, Elfyn Llwyd, Ben Wallace, Helen Goodman and Damian Hinds. I am going to ask each Member to ask one question and that way I think we will get everyone in. Your answers are very interesting. Please can we keep them crisper and shorter so that we get all your evidence on the record.

Q 11

Photo of Dave Watts Dave Watts Labour, St Helens North

You seem to be very much in favour of the Government’s proposals provided that the resources are made available to make them work; the increase in youth offending teams, probation and the workplace element of the proposals. What will the effect be if those resources are not made available and you try to pursue the policy without sufficient resources in youth offending teams, probation and in the work environment?

Andrew Neilson: We have already gone through some of this in earlier answers. There is danger in a reduction in funds for the system. At the same time, we have to ask the question: is the system too large and are we putting too many people, never mind in prison, but on probation, too? There is overcrowding in both systems and it is the reach of the criminal justice system, the fact that it now takes in more people than ever before, and that it costs more than in many other countries, that means that although all our organisations are worried about the balance of cuts, we see scope for a much reduced criminal justice system. That is an important point to make.

That requires bold sentencing reform, some of which may be in this Bill. It might have been bolder, but there is a bigger question about what is the penal system, why do we use it and who do we want in it that we, as a society, really need to ask. This Bill is only the beginning of a debate on that.

Q 12

Photo of Kate Green Kate Green Labour, Stretford and Urmston

In your view, does the Bill sufficiently recognise the special needs and circumstances of women in the whole criminal justice system, both pre and post-trial?

Juliet Lyon: Spectacularly, the Bill does not mention women at all, or possibly as a footnote, I gather. This is remarkable, given the work that was done by a number of bodies including, most recently, the Corston review. We firmly believe, and we now have the findings of the Women’s Justice Taskforce to back it up, that the number of women in prison could easily be reduced by the same degree as the number of under 18-year-olds, given the level of vulnerability, the petty, persistent nature of much of the offending and the need to work on addictions, enabling women to get out of debt and so forth.

What has really impressed us, and the members of the Women’s Justice Taskforce, has been a range of schemes outside prison walls, particularly women’s centres, where women can attend, continue to take responsibility for their children and address the particular causes of their offending. They are showing very good results. We think there are solutions, but we regret very much that the Government have not chosen at this stage to indicate that they are prepared to take particular steps in relation to women. We think there is a good case for a national strategy to reduce women’s imprisonment and respond to their particular needs. There is a good case for much improved leadership on this issue, which is indicative of the fact that women have not appeared in the Bill. You will see a set of coherent clauses about youth justice, but nothing about women’s justice. That could be rectified.

Vicki Helyar-Cardwell: We support the need for a national strategy for women and championing that issue at leadership level. In case we do not come on to them, I want to flag up that the bail and remand provisions will have a positive effect on women. At the moment, one third of women offenders remanded into custody do not go on to receive a custodial sentence. That is hugely disproportionate. Often women are carers of children, there is disruption to the family home and to employment and caring responsibilities, so the CJA is supportive of the provisions on bail and remand in the way they will impact on women, for whom they are used far too frequently and with very severe consequences.

Q 13

Photo of Elfyn Llwyd Elfyn Llwyd Shadow PC Spokesperson (Wales), Plaid Cymru Westminster Leader, Shadow PC Spokesperson (Constitution), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Foreign Affairs), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Home Affairs), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Justice), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Defence), Shadow PC Spokesperson (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

The Bill requires justices of the peace to decide whether there is “any real prospect” of a custodial sentence being imposed, but at the very beginning of the case when they decide on bail. How do you think the outcome of a case can be predicted right from the very start in that way? Do you believe that the provisions as drafted provide sufficient protection for victims?

Frances Crook: I welcome the proposal and I think it would be very helpful. The Howard League has long argued that there ought to be a provision such that when somebody is found not guilty, or after a period of custodial remand, they should be able to apply for compensation. We are very concerned at the overuse of custodial remands, so anything that can exert pressure to deter that, for a variety of different reasons, we welcome very much.

Juliet Lyon: We welcome the provision in the Bill. We appreciate that it might need strengthening or clarifying, but the reality is that currently more than 50,000 people a year enter prison to serve a period on remand in custody. Of those, more than 11,000 are acquitted and about a half do not go on to a further custodial penalty. I do not think that we can afford a system that is so hugely out of kilter with a fairer, just and proportionate response.

This is a proposal that seems to us to enable the courts to think very hard about why they would need to use custodial remand and not to use it for some of the things that it has been used for in the past. An instance would be remanding people to have a mental health assessment. There are other ways of doing that, and there are other ways of ensuring that people turn up for trial. It is a timely review, in fact way over time, so we would support it in broad terms, appreciating that there may need to be some clarification.

Q 14

Photo of Ben Wallace Ben Wallace Conservative, Wyre and Preston North

Let me move on to indeterminate public protection sentences. Could you give us your view, because it is slightly elephant in the room when you are talking about cost and waste. Locking up 6,000 people, 3,500 of whom have already served their tariff and are lolling around in their cells, is a vast waste of money, even if that money could have been used to re-educate them or do something else and be cut from rehabilitation. What is your impression of the IPP policy as it stands now?

Juliet Lyon: We very much support the review of IPP sentences and the proposal to bring the review and findings from that back into the Bill. This is another instance of massive unfairness, and I do not think they are “lolling around in their cells.” We run an advice and information service that responds to about 6,000 prisoners and their families each year. Very many of them are serving an IPP or are concerned about someone serving an IPP. Our experience is that people are chasing courses; that is the best way of putting it. Given that the only way out of the maze for many people is to do an offending behaviour programme, they are trying to transfer from one prison to another, desperately trying to gain a place on a course.

Last week, somebody phoned us who had a 71-day tariff. He has currently served five years and is still asking for advice on where courses might be available or when he might have a parole hearing. This is totally unacceptable. May I give you one other example, because it concentrates the mind? There was a woman who went into Holloway prison on remand. During that time, she set fire to herself and her cell because she wanted to kill herself. When she came to court she was acquitted of the remand charge, the offence for which she had been remanded, but she was given an IPP sentence by the judge because he said that arson was a serious offence and she might well commit that same offence again outside in the community.

We do not know what has happened to her, but the odds are, I fear, that she may well be still serving that period of time in custody. It is Kafkaesque and unfair, and has attracted the disapproval and criticism of almost everyone in the criminal justice system, from judges to the Prison Governors Association and the staff who have to work and manage the system. We would dearly love to see the provision brought under control and disposed of in its current form.

Andrew Neilson: The public do not understand. If it was enacted with the idea of being tough on crime, that these people would never get out—or certainly not without going through many courses and proving that they are safe—it has not worked. We have seen this in high-profile cases, for example Baby P’s mother, who received an IPP sentence. All the media coverage focused on the minimum tariff, so it seemed as if—I cannot  remember the exact figure—she was going to serve four years. The media focused on that and whipped up public outrage that that was all she was getting, whether that was correct or not. The IPP has not even worked in that sense. It is a sentence, as Juliet has said, which has been a complete disaster. Anyone working in the system will tell you that. The Howard League would say that it is wrong in principle, because in the end you are locking people up, not for what they have done, but for what they might do, and we believe that is unjust. Even beyond principle, it has practically failed and, in fact, in a system where you will see budget cuts, there will be even less opportunity for people to do courses and even less opportunity to progress through their sentence. We have to get the IPP abolished.

Photo of Philip Hollobone Philip Hollobone Conservative, Kettering

We have 10 minutes left and one question each from the following three Members: Helen Goodman, Damian Hinds and Yvonne Fovargue.

Q 15

Photo of Helen Goodman Helen Goodman Shadow Minister (Justice)

Mandatory minimum custodial sentences are quite controversial and I would like to ask the witnesses what their impact is, whether they think they are an effective deterrent and in particular, what they think of the late addition to the Bill, the new knife crime provisions proposed by the Government?

Vicki Helyar-Cardwell: We do not think mandatory minimum sentences are the most effective response to knife crime. We obviously wish to see more resources put into preventive services. The Sentencing Council is doing some really useful and important work in clarifying and providing consistency around sentencing, and we would not want to see anything that works against that important work. There seems to be very little evidence about the deterrent impact of mandatory minimum sentences, so we are not in favour. Obviously, that is not to say that knife crime is not an important issue; we just do not think this is the most effective response.

Frances Crook: The Howard League has published some research conducted by a prison governor on young men serving sentences—some of them long sentences—for knife crime. The evidence from the young men themselves was very clear: it is not the sentencing that is the deterrent. Their lives were so chaotic and so violent that they were much more afraid of each other and being knifed, than of carrying a knife or being arrested. Sometimes mandatory minimum sentences constrain judges’ discretion irrelevantly and do not have the desired effect, and in fact can sometimes have unforeseen and contrary effects.

Andrew Neilson: It seems strange to focus on this at a time when knife crime is actually on the decline. We have seen a decrease in offensive weapon possession of 23% between the beginning of 2009 and the beginning of this year.

Q 16

Photo of Damian Hinds Damian Hinds Conservative, East Hampshire

I would like to come back to Mr Buckland’s line of questioning to Frances Crook about the clauses relating to the Prisoners’ Earnings Act. I think you said that those clauses were not necessary to make further progress in this area, both in relation to work itself and also to victim support contributions and to the opening of a savings account, which would include payroll deduction provisions and contingent access to funds. Are you sure  that it is possible to do that without a change in the law, particularly the contingent access to funds? If these clauses are not necessary to make further progress, why has more progress not been made, particularly with finding more partners with higher value work that would enable these sorts of deductions and contributions to be made?

Frances Crook: Yes, I am sure it is the case that the legislation is not required. We have had lots of conversations with the Prison Service who have been very, very reluctant to introduce the concept of real work. I am very pleased to see that Michael Spurr, the head of the Prison Service, is now indicating that there could be a core day and the restrictive hours that prisoners are allowed to work will be relaxed, so that is very welcome. We do not think that the legislation is very helpful. We want to see outside businesses bringing work back to England that has been offshore. I am very pleased to see, for example, that BT has brought back its call centres. That sort of work could be put into prisons; it could be done competitively inside prisons, which would not take work away from local people, but it has to be run by outside businesses. The central flaw here is that the Prison Service would still be running and employing the prisoners.

Q 17

Photo of Damian Hinds Damian Hinds Conservative, East Hampshire

Are you saying that payroll deductions to open a savings account with contingent access to those funds, which at the very least would only be on release, could be done without legislation?

Frances Crook: It is what we did. We helped our employees—our prisoners—to open bank accounts. They then benefited from increased money within the prison economy, so they could buy extra bits and pieces within the prison. Most importantly, they could send money out to their families. At the moment what families have to do is send money in to prisoners; and if the families are on benefits, that is a huge tax on them.

I think the other thing that is missing here is support for families. If a man is earning a real wage in a prison, why should he not be asked to keep his family? At the moment there is a sleight of hand with the Benefits Agency, which means that they are not required to do that. They are not required to support their children or their families, and I think that is a huge mistake.

Q 18

Photo of Yvonne Fovargue Yvonne Fovargue Labour, Makerfield

Social welfare law is being removed from scope at precisely the same time as one of the hugest upheavals in the benefit system, with the introduction of universal credit. What do you believe will be the impact on community cohesion and crime levels?

Juliet Lyon: That is a difficult but good question, given the prison population. We know that they are likely to be the poorest people in our society. I think there is a very important lesson for Government—that if you are going to do criminal justice reform you have to link it up to social welfare provision. You have to think seriously about joining up services, and not having a separate silo for justice.

We think, for example, there is tremendous merit in the roll-out now of the liaison and diversion schemes, which will enable people who are mentally ill and people  with learning disabilities to get the mental health treatment and social care that they need, if it exists in sufficient measure.

That is the point; there are many people in prison because they have been failed by other public services. We would not want a diminution in other public services; and we would like a better joined-up process for those who do need to go to prison—more emphasis on resettlement and on engagement of other public and voluntary services, so that while they are in prison the whole purpose of their time there is to spend it preparing for a responsible life on release. That is the Prison Service mission, but it is difficult to achieve in the current circumstances.

Photo of Philip Hollobone Philip Hollobone Conservative, Kettering

I suspect that this will be the last question.

Q 19

Photo of Ben Wallace Ben Wallace Conservative, Wyre and Preston North

I would just like clarification from Frances Crook on prisoner earnings. When you said you set up a business, if I heard you right you talked about it being voluntary. It was a voluntary relationship between the prisoners and the Prison Service to deliver that business. Is that correct? There was no compulsion on the prisoners to do it.

Frances Crook: I do not think it would be lawful or moral to compel prisoners to work. We do not have forced labour. It would be against international law. We recruited our prisoners from the prison.

Q 20

Photo of Ben Wallace Ben Wallace Conservative, Wyre and Preston North

I was not asking about compelling them to work, but about earnings—taking some of their earnings and using them for something else; what if they opposed that? That would be the change in the law that would seem to be required.

Frances Crook: We did it. As a condition of applying for a job with us they had to agree to having 30% of their wages deducted, and we asked them on top of that to make voluntary donations to Victim Support, which they all did. I do not know how much they gave, because it was between them and Victim Support. Victim Support of course benefited from the tax through gift aid as well, and got extra money. We have done that, and I did not see any problem with it.

Andrew Neilson: The key thing is that point; it is about the business and the prisoner making the agreement as a condition of employment. In that sense it is voluntary. We are not forcing them to work. The problem with the Bill is that it focuses on the Prison Service taking the money away, but our model, on which we published a report, called “Business Behind Bars”, which we can make available to the Committee, looks at things from another point of view: prisons themselves can agree with businesses the terms on which the businesses come in; then the businesses find prisoners who are willing to work on those terms.

Q 21

Photo of Andrew Slaughter Andrew Slaughter Shadow Minister (Justice)

Payment by results is the only way it is suggested new resources will go in. Are you concerned that that is the only way, and it may skew what alternatives to custody may be available?

Juliet Lyon: We do not think that the only answer is payment by results. We feel that it is an untested method. It may well prove to be an answer, but it will not be the only one.

In conclusion, what the Bill seems to offer is the opportunity—

Photo of Philip Hollobone Philip Hollobone Conservative, Kettering

Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady. In accordance with the programme motion, which the Committee agreed, that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions of our witnesses in the session. Thank you all very much for coming along this morning, giving up your time and giving evidence. We will now hear evidence from the National Association of Probation Officers and the Prison Officers Association.

Photo of Andrew Slaughter Andrew Slaughter Shadow Minister (Justice)

On a point of order, Mr Hollobone. I note Mr Wallace asked questions about IPPs, which are not in the Bill. Given the constraint we have on time is it permissible to ask about things that are not in the Bill?

Photo of Philip Hollobone Philip Hollobone Conservative, Kettering

The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely valid point. There was another question from a Labour Member that was also slightly wide of the mark, but I used my discretion as Chairman to allow both to take place. However, his advice to the Chair is well meant and well put and if we can keep to the terms of the Bill that would maximise the effectiveness of the time deployed.

Photo of Ben Wallace Ben Wallace Conservative, Wyre and Preston North

Further to that point of order, Mr Hollobone. On the question that I raised on IPP, first, it is in the sentencing Bill and I appreciate your discretion. Secondly, the witnesses who gave evidence this morning included IPPs when they made submissions to the Green Paper and in public. As it was the final opportunity to ask for their view of an IPP, and as the Government have openly said that measures on IPP may come forward at some stage in the course of the Bill, I thought it was correct to do so.

Photo of Philip Hollobone Philip Hollobone Conservative, Kettering

I thank Mr Wallace for that point of order and his remarks are on the record.