Daniel Rogerson (North Cornwall, Liberal Democrat)

I beg to move amendment 158, in clause 119, page 74, line 16, leave out from beginning to end of line 17 and insert ‘parish councils’.

The first part of the amendment would delete the reference to economic prosperity boards, which is in line with other amendments that we tabled, but they were not selected. As we have discussed already, we wanted to delete the whole concept from the Bill, but we seem to have moved on and acknowledged that EPBs might have a role to offer, so we will not seek to push the amendment to a vote.

The amendment would also insert “parish councils” into the clause, although the Minister might feel that this is not the appropriate clause—perhaps they could be dealt with under partner authorities. Nevertheless, we have debated the evolving nature of parish councils, particularly in areas that now have unitary councils. That is a situation with which I am now more familiar. Larger parish councils in places such as Wiltshire and  Shropshire are, in consultation with those authorities, considering taking on further roles and perhaps professionalising what they have done hitherto. As they have a developing role, I should like to see somewhere in this concept of multi-area agreements provision for parish councils to be able to contribute.

Many parish councils may not yet be ready for such a concept, but with the equality status process moving forward, the aspirations of parish councils—particularly the larger ones—are changing. The right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon was right to point out that for many smaller parish councils, such a suggestion will not be appropriate.

Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth & Camborne, Liberal Democrat)

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, especially given the experiences of preparing for local government reorganisation in Cornwall, where it is very difficult for the parish councils to have an input even though they may be taking on a greater role. Even in the case of smaller parish councils, is it not the case that if they are considering working together it may be appropriate for them to be considered? I am talking about another layer of multi-area agreement.

Daniel Rogerson (North Cornwall, Liberal Democrat)

Multi-parish agreement.

Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth & Camborne, Liberal Democrat)

Indeed. There could be some benefit for them from working with other authorities.

Daniel Rogerson (North Cornwall, Liberal Democrat)

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I am sure that that is the process. It may be that some of that is formalised and we will see smaller parish councils coming together to form larger parish councils. Such a process is under way in some areas. That can happen in consultation with the local authority and does not need the Secretary of State’s involvement. That is an issue that has been devolved, and that we welcome.

We are talking about parish councils, which, two reorganisations ago, were urban districts or boroughs and were building housing and carrying out all sorts of functions. There is a desire to be flexible and consider delivering services at the most appropriate local level. What I want from the Minister is some guidance about how she intends to involve parish councils in this process—whether it will be listed under local authorities under clause 119 or under partner authorities next time. I have a feeling that partner authorities does not quite cover it, because they tend to be other forms of bodies rather than elected organisations.

Stewart Jackson (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; Peterborough, Conservative)

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman sees any implication for the precepting process in his proposal for the effective amalgamation of parish councils in multi-area agreements?

Daniel Rogerson (North Cornwall, Liberal Democrat)

I served in a borough council that was part-parished and part-unparished, and there was always conflict. The parished areas felt that some services were not being provided for them directly, and they would effectively say, “Well, you can put it on the precept, can’t you?” Such an attitude would be a concern. None the less, it would be a shame if there were no method for the parish councils to be involved in the process. As I said, this is a probing amendment, and I want some thoughts from the Government about how these significant local bodies can be involved.

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that parish councils play an extremely important role in supporting their local communities. That is why in December we extended the well-being power to certain parish and town councils. The real problem is that there is a large number of parish councils—more than 8,000—and it is not appropriate to add them to the list of MAAs. It would inevitably make the process much more complicated. None the less, I want to reassure the hon. Gentleman that in preparing a draft MAA, the responsible authority has to consult such other persons as it considers appropriate. Therefore, if it was appropriate within an area to consult a parish council, then we would expect the local authorities to do so.

Daniel Rogerson (North Cornwall, Liberal Democrat)

I am slightly disappointed by that response. I accept that it would be inappropriate for all 8,000 parishes—it is a growing number, because parishes are being formed in urban areas—automatically to be involved in multi-area agreements. The whole point of multi-area agreements, as the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich said, is their flexibility. If we are seeking a process that allows involvement for different bodies, as appropriate, I think that it is a shame that there is no flexibility. For example, in my area, Newquay town council covers an area containing about 20,000 people.

David Curry (Skipton & Ripon, Conservative)

I do not know whether it is the case in the hon. Gentleman’s part of the world, but in my part of the world a significant number of the elected members of the bigger parish councils also sit on the district council or even the county council.

Daniel Rogerson (North Cornwall, Liberal Democrat)

That is sometimes the case, but it is not universal; it is perhaps an accident, happy or otherwise. If we are looking to allow flexibility, we could not necessarily count on that, but the different bodies have different roles. If people are elected to two authorities they must be careful to deal with the issues appropriate to each authority.

I saying not that all parish councils must be involved, but that if they want to be involved and if the other partners in that multi-area agreement think it appropriate, there is a facility for them to become involved. They could take a more direct role, not simply being consultees but delivering services or providing facilities for services to be delivered, as many town parish councils have significant property available to them.

I would welcome it if the Minister were prepared to consider the matter again. It would be useful to know whether the Government were tempted. If not, it will send the message to parish councils that once again they are not seen as being sufficiently involved. That would be a shame, as their role is developing.

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

The Liberal Democrats believe that the provision is too prescriptive and that we are telling everybody what to do, but in this instance we are saying that is it up to the responsible authorities to use their judgment and to allow consultation. For the reasons that I gave earlier, I believe that we have the balance right.

Daniel Rogerson (North Cornwall, Liberal Democrat)

The Minister is seeking to cloud the issue by talking about being prescriptive. I have said that the amendment would not compel anyone to be involved, but merely allow them to become involved in  future. It is not appropriate to press the matter to a Division, but we may return to the question at a later stage. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.