Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

We had quite a wide-ranging discussion at the start of my responding remarks. At this stage, I do not want to repeat the arguments why we need regional decision making and regional strategies—we went through those clearly this morning. However, it is worth noting the support that we have received for this part of the Bill. Margaret Eaton, chair of the Local Government Association, said that the Bill will

“give councillors the power to effect real economic change in their local areas.”

My right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich read out a letter that the Committee received from 4NW about the views of the people in local government. I would like to add to those comments, some remarks from the chairman of the South West Strategic Leaders Board, Councillor Angus Campbell, a Conservative:

“On behalf of the South West Strategic Leaders Board I’m delighted that Government has confirmed the early transfer of the Assembly’s functions. The Board brings Council Leaders together in the most effective decision making grouping for the South West. I believe the Assembly achieved a great deal but now is a time for a change. This announcement is a milestone in taking forward more effective decision making in the South West. I look forward to working with the Board of the Regional Development Agency as we drive forward into a new phase for the region.”

Arthur Barker, from Yorkshire and Humber, said:

“'Throughout Yorkshire and Humber we have a strong track record of working with cross party support”—

Arthur Barker is a Conservative, as the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon will know—

“on issues to shape our region and make our communities better places. Local Government in the region is strong and these new arrangements will help to maximise the value we can add for our communities by collaborating at the sub-regional and regional level.”

Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth & Camborne, Liberal Democrat)

The Minister is going through some of the representations that she received on the proposals. Will she tell us whether she received any representations from members of the public, given that the Bill is about local democracy, which the previous Secretary of State said is about engaging people? What evidence does the Minister have to suggest that the proposals will help to engage people directly with the process of government?

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

There are two issues. Earlier on, we explored the idea for increased engagement through petitions, and through councils promoting understanding of how local people get involved, all of which the hon. Lady voted against. The reason why she opposed those measures is completely beyond me—but then again, trying to marry the different Lib Dem approaches to policy and non-policy has been a completely enlightening experience.

In terms of people’s responses to the proposals, we indeed consulted. We know that people want a powerful voice for local government to draw up strategies with regional development agencies. This morning, the hon. Lady voted against having any regional strategies, under the spurious excuse that somehow, the regional boundaries were wrong. However, in doing so, and in continuing her voting record on the Bill, she is at every turn voting down proposals that will strengthen local democracy and decision making, particularly at regional level.

I will finish by quoting Councillor Mick Henry, who is a Labour member and chair of the Association of North East Councils. He said:

“This opportunity for us to more effectively shape and determine our own economic future in the region is strongly welcomed and we will be working closely with partners as part of a commitment to making implementation of the SNR proposals a success in the North East”.

Stewart Jackson (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; Peterborough, Conservative)

The right hon. Lady is perfecting the technique of body swerving legitimate questions put by Opposition Members. She was asked about a specific point. Of course, we are happy to hear an encyclopaedia of civic life throughout Britain and views on her particular policies, but the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne asked a specific question—how many representations has the Minister received from members of the public that support her proposals? It is a simple question.

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

Obviously, the hon. Gentleman will know that I cannot name every individual who responded to the proposals. However, I can say that we had a number of responses to the consultation from local government. Although the Opposition spent most of the morning sneering at both councillors and their input, councillors are able to reflect the views of local people. In particular, the view they have taken with regard to ensuring that the regional development agency works closely, through the leaders’ board, with local councils is exactly what the public want.

The Opposition say that the regional development agencies are unaccountable and that they do not believe there is adequate local government representation. However, as soon as we bring forward proposals for that representation and partnership, they sneer about sashes and grand approaches by councillors. If they took the time to consult their own councillors, they would find that our proposals have been welcomed as a good way forward. I hope that the Committee will support the clause. It is about getting the right partnership between the RDA and local authorities in the area so that they can draw up an effective regional strategy that will help local people, local communities and local businesses.

I shall briefly address the issue about representations from members of the public. As I said, it is not possible for me to name every individual, but in the interests of  being helpful I can tell the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne that we summarised the feedback from the consultation in our Government response in November 2008. I am more than happy to make available to the hon. Lady or any other Committee member an analysis of the respondents.

I want to address two other things. We do not want to assert from the centre that leaders’ boards will look the same in every region. What we want to do is recognise that local authorities are obviously mature bodies that are able to have discussions about how to constitute the leaders’ boards. That is why we have said that we want them to have their own arrangements. The overall purpose is to give local authorities a stronger collective voice at regional level. We have tried to provide a transparent process for establishing the mechanism that will enable the local authorities to act collectively and with authority. It is encouraging for our approach that approximately five of the regions have put together ideas about their leaders’ board. There have been a number of discussions in those regions with local authorities on exactly what the board should look like.

It is important to reassure the Committee that within that process, we have been anxious to ensure that there is scrutiny so that the voluntary and trade union sectors, for example, can retain in their discussions with local authority leaders some of their input to regional assemblies.

David Curry (Skipton & Ripon, Conservative)

As we have said, it is expected to take five years to produce a plan, but the complexion of local government in any area could change quite dramatically in that time. The plans must be approved by the Secretary of State. Does the Secretary of State have any notional guidelines on the maximum number of people for a leaders’ board? Is the leader appointed personally or ex officio? The south-east region has 77 councils to represent. If the leader represents a bunch of district councils, for example, should there be arrangements for changing them in the event of a significant change of political complexion during the five years of drawing up the plan? What would be the term of office? What would the Secretary of State regard as a sensible period of appointment for someone on the board?

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

That is the point of establishing the scheme. I am not sure whether the official Opposition did not want a scheme or whether they voted with the Lib Dems that there should not be a scheme, but the idea of the scheme addresses exactly the right hon. Gentleman’s point—it enables participating authorities to set out both the composition and operation of the board. We would expect it to include information, for example, on how the leaders’ board proposes to resolve differences of opinion within the board, between the authorities that it represents, and between the board and the RDA.

On representation, we have said that the representatives on the leaders’ board do not have to be leaders. However, we will advise that they should be people of sufficient stature so that, for example, they can make decisions on behalf of the authority and represent it.

David Curry (Skipton & Ripon, Conservative)

But elected.

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

All elected members. Of course, leaders’ board members need to be able to command the authority of the council that they represent, but we are not  dictating that they have to be the leaders of those councils. The person must be someone whom the authority believes to be a good and strong representative of its views.

Peter Lilley (Hitchin & Harpenden, Conservative)

The Minister has exposed a lacuna in the Bill. I can find no clause that defines what the leader on the leaders’ board is supposed to lead. She spoke as if the leaders are to be leaders of local authorities, but as I understand it, they could be leaders of business, trade unions, churches, charities or any kind of leader. There is no restriction in the Bill to say that the person has to be an elected member of a council. Indeed, a council official could be appointed to the leaders’ board. If I am wrong, perhaps the Minister could point me to the clause that would expose my error.

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

The clause makes it clear, and we have always been clear, that we are talking about representatives. That is the democratic accountability that we have built in.

Nick Raynsford (Greenwich & Woolwich, Labour)

I believe that the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden was not able to be with us this morning, so he did not hear me read out a letter from 4NW, the regional leaders’ forum for the north-west of England. It gave a very clear indication of the composition of the leaders’ board being set up in that region, which comprises leaders of relevant local authorities—not all the local authorities, but the main local authorities in the area—along with representatives of the business community, the voluntary sector, trade unions and other people. They are people who will act in a leadership role within the region to help to drive forward the economic development agenda, which is what the Bill is all about. I thus strongly urge my right hon. Friend the Minister to be robust in defending the principles that are set out in the Government’s policy, which the Conservatives seem to have some difficulty appreciating.

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

My right hon. Friend is absolutely—[Interruption.] As I have said, the basic problem, which my right hon. Friend has once again put his finger on, is that the official Opposition really do not want anything to do with regional strategy at all and, frankly, they do not believe in the economic model that we have established. Therefore, on every occasion, they are basically doing what they can to undermine the principles that we are trying to establish in the Bill.

Paul Goodman (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; Wycombe, Conservative)

Which part of clause 68 defines who these leaders will be?

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

Regarding how the leaders’ boards are constituted, we have said to the individual authorities that they will need to come forward with a scheme that will then be put forward to the Secretary of State. That is set out very clearly in clause 68(3). Members of the Committee will see that, within that measure, the following authorities are obviously set out:

“a district council...a county council...a National Park authority...the Broads Authority.”

It is the participating authorities themselves that must prepare the scheme. Inevitably, it will be the elected members of those authorities who must agree who will go forward to represent each authority. We have also made it very clear that the person who goes forward on to the leaders’ board must be somebody who is not necessarily the leader of the council or authority, but a representative who is able to make decisions, particularly about the allocation of funding or resources. That person must be able to be a representative of the council or authority itself.

In all the cases that have emerged, the people who have been put forward by the local authorities have been elected representatives. For example, in the Yorkshire and Humber area, they have been joining in with the joint boards themselves. That is why the schemes themselves will look very closely at democratically elected representatives. This is what local authorities have asked for. They asked for the schemes to be established in this way so that they themselves can have elected representatives on the leaders’ board.

David Curry (Skipton & Ripon, Conservative)

I seek clarification. My understanding is that the central decision-making unit, to put it that way, would be composed of nominated members of the regional development agency, although perhaps not all the members. However, in the case of Yorkshire and Humber, there would presumably be eight members. The other half of the board would consist of people who were exclusively elected local authority representatives so that there would be a balance between the quango representatives and the local authority representatives. Are we now saying that the leaders’ board may include people who have not been elected? Secondly, does the Minister have any guidelines in mind as to whether or not there should be some broad political balance among those people who are elected to serve? It is easier to achieve that in some parts of the country than others. It would be quite difficult to do that in the south-east at the moment, but there have been times when it would have been difficult in the north-east, for example. Alternatively, is a desire to seek political balance not a relevant consideration?

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

Taking Yorkshire and Humber as an example of how the scheme has been drawn up, there has been agreement in that region to have, as the right hon. Gentleman said, eight members of the leaders’ board out of approximately 22 local authorities. That has been agreed by the local authorities and all councillors who are represented. Below that, there are a number of subsidiary boards relating to housing, transport, planning and economic regeneration—those are roughly the advisory committees.

In Yorkshire and Humber—I am sure this applies to other regions as well—there has been a keenness to involve people who might previously have been on the regional assembly. That is sometimes achieved as part of a scrutiny role, and sometimes there has been consideration of co-opting people on to some of the boards that have been established, such as people from the voluntary sector and the trade union movement, and representatives of the faith movement or environmental groups. There are a number of ways in which people can remain involved in the decision-making process.

David Curry (Skipton & Ripon, Conservative)

But the holding company—if I may use that expression—that makes a decision is composed exclusively of members of the regional development agency and elected local authority representatives, whether or not they are leaders of individual local authorities.

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

The current interim bodies have to abide by existing legislation, which requires the regional planning body to include other stakeholders. However, as I have said, regions such as Yorkshire and Humber have been keen to ensure that other voices are heard, whether by scrutiny or by the ability co-opt members, as sometimes happens. The new legislation itself will not require other stakeholders to be involved, but I think there has been sensitivity about ensuring that people do not feel that they have been excluded from the drawing up of regional strategies. In fact, people felt that there was a good reason to have a regional strategy on the environment and other areas.

We are aware that the leaders’ board schemes might, outside the scheme itself, want to involve other stakeholders in scrutiny, or involve them through the local authority structure. We will also make it clear in our early advice about the leaders’ boards that we expect the inner leaders’ board—if you like—to be made up of elected members. We are keen to ensure that there is sensitivity about the fact that there are many other groups and organisations that want to have an input—they have already been doing so through the assemblies. We will therefore look at how we can encourage scrutiny of proposed plans.

David Curry (Skipton & Ripon, Conservative)

There is no point in getting rid of the existing regional assemblies if, in practice, they are then duplicated in the new structure. May I be absolutely clear that the main decision-making body will be exclusively made up of RDA and local authority people who have been elected and have their own mandate, and that whatever subsidiary bodies they bring in, that central core remains exclusively elected people on the RDA?

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Yorkshire and the Humber), Department for Communities and Local Government; Doncaster Central, Labour)

That is what I have just said. I will say this again if the right hon. Gentleman would like me to: the early advice will make it very clear that we expect the leaders’ board to be made up of elected members. Having said that, I think that the clause is the right way to get a balance between elected democratic representation and the strategic focus of the regional development agencies. I hope that the Committee will support the clause.