Paul Goodman (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; Wycombe, Conservative)

When we were both even younger than we are now, Mr. Amess, and when all the other members of the Committee were younger, a famous politician got into a bit of trouble. I will not identify his political party, because, heavens, that would be too controversial, but his answer to all difficult questions was “ditto”, over and over again. Clause 4 is a ditto clause in that we will get the ditto answer from the Minister to our ditto objections. There is no reason whatever for the clause to be in the Bill. It is perfectly worth while for local authorities to promote understanding of a lay justice, but there is no reason why such promotion should be burdensome and bureaucratic.

Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth & Camborne, Liberal Democrat)

I have been trying to follow the hon. Gentleman’s remarks, but either I was too young to be aware of the politician he mentions, or I was not even born at the time. However, his theme is relevant.

In the Minister’s closing remarks on the previous clause, she talked about the “do nothing” approach. The Liberal Democrats are not saying that nothing needs to be done, but the Government’s approach seems to be, “If in doubt, legislate.” That seems to be the case in so much Home Office legislation, which has demonstrated that legislation is not a proxy for action. Putting provisions into primary legislation does not mean that we will end up with the results that the right hon. Lady hopes for. In fact, the Councillors Commission and the “be a councillor” campaign have shown that the most effective advocates for encouraging wider participation in civic life are individuals who recruit and head-hunt others, and explain the role to them. That is better than a corporate approach, although it is available as back-up, but all the campaign’s excellent work was achieved without the need for an Act to support it. The work was all about supporting individuals, but unfortunately the Bill is presumably about providing corporate material and putting a duty on councils, rather than stating that there should be a duty for everybody involved.

I strongly feel that such a silo mentality needs to be broken down. It would have been refreshing if the Bill had mentioned how some of the issues could be dealt with by cutting across different Departments. Perhaps the issues would be best addressed through guidance and a best-practice manual, but by trying to deal with them through primary legislation, the Government are boxing themselves into a corner, which will not achieve their stated aims.

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Pensions Reform; Minister for Yorkshire and Humber), Department for Work and Pensions; Doncaster Central, Labour)

I will be very brief, because a lot of dittoing may be going on. In that respect, I can say only that the hon. Lady is not right to say that the issues  should be spread wider instead of brought together under one hub. What I said was that we certainly believe that other organisations should promote how they work and how people can get involved in decision making, but we think it is a good idea for local councils to bring that information together.

Julia Goldsworthy (Falmouth & Camborne, Liberal Democrat)

In which case, why is there not a requirement for local authorities to promote the way that democracy works in Westminster? If local authorities are to be the hub, why is there not more on the face of the Bill to explain how democratic institutions work at national level, and perhaps at European level? Why are there not other duties to promote understanding of all those bodies, such as the Child Support Agency, which was referred to earlier, where there may not be a local impact? How those services impact on an individual would certainly be of great interest to that individual.

Rosie Winterton (Minister of State (Pensions Reform; Minister for Yorkshire and Humber), Department for Work and Pensions; Doncaster Central, Labour)

As I said, the measure is about services at local level. It is about people getting involved in shaping those services. It is about people understanding how different organisations work at local level; this is a local government Bill. I very much hope that with those reassurances the Opposition will again crumble, although I think it unlikely. However, I hope the Committee support this wonderful clause.