Schedule 9
Equality Bill
5:15 pm
John Mason (Glasgow East, Scottish National Party)
I take it that that was an indication that we should not spend too long on the schedule and that I might not have as many interventions as I was anticipating.
Amendments 44 and 45 would take out the new test of proportionality that has been added to the sexual conduct exceptions for religious bodies. The test does not appear in paragraph 7(3) of the Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regulations 2003, which contains the previous incarnation of the exception. I might as well just throw in at this point that I do not speak on behalf of my party on this issue.
There is no reason for the Government to depart from the wording that was agreed with religious groups in 2003, which has been on the statute book for six years. Has there been a single employment tribunal case in which a Church has successfully relied on the exemptions given in 2003? Did any such cases involve discrimination that the Government believe to be disproportionate and worthy of being outlawed? I would be grateful if the Minister could answer those questions.
I have some notes from the Church of England, which gave evidence to us. It is probably not the most radical of the religious groups that we meet day to day. One paragraph of its notes states:
“It seems to us that this risks involving the courts and tribunals in having to address questions as to the precise nature and extent of particular religious doctrines, or as to precisely how strongly particular religious convictions were held. It would also mean that having done that, the courts would have to go on to determine what the effect of those doctrines or strongly held beliefs was in terms of the details of the requirements that needed to be applied in order to comply with them. This is exactly the territory into which the courts are both reluctant and ill-equipped to venture.”
Amendment 43 would remove the new definition of organised religion in paragraph 2(8) of schedule 9. The new definition, which, again, was not present in the wording agreed with the Churches in 2003, states:
“Employment is for the purposes of an organised religion only if the employment wholly or mainly involves...(a) leading or assisting in the observation of liturgical or ritualistic practices of the religion, or...(b) promoting or explaining the doctrine of the religion (whether to followers of the religion or to others).”
As the Minister said last Tuesday, any lawyer knows that as soon as we list anything, we narrow it. By listing what is regarded as organised religion, the Government are narrowing the exemption.