Clause 18
Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill
10:00 am
Siôn Simon (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills; Birmingham, Erdington, Labour)
I beg to move amendment 166, in clause 18, page 9, line 8, at beginning insert
‘in the case of withdrawal otherwise than by the Welsh Ministers,’.
This amendment provides that notice of withdrawal of recognition of an apprenticeship framework need only be given to the Welsh Ministers where recognition is withdrawn by someone other than the Welsh Ministers.
The clause makes a number of requirements relating to the publication of apprenticeship frameworks in Wales, and to the notification of Welsh Ministers of any frameworks that have been issued or withdrawn. The requirements are necessary to ensure that the public is kept up to date on the range of frameworks available, and that Welsh Ministers, as the certifying authority in Wales, are kept informed of developments.
As currently drafted, the clause requires that Welsh Ministers be notified of the withdrawal of recognition of an apprenticeship framework, even if, by using their power under clause 17(2)(b), they withdraw recognition of a framework themselves. The amendment makes it clear that Welsh Ministers do not have to notify themselves when they decide to withdraw recognition and there is no Welsh issuing authority in relation to the framework. However, they will still be bound by clause 18(3)(a) to publish a notice stating that recognition has been withdrawn.
John Hayes (Shadow Minister, Innovation, Universities and Skills; South Holland and The Deepings, Conservative)
As the Minister said, the amendment seeks to correct a muddled clause, but it may take us from a muddle to a mire; I will explain the reasons for that, and I am sure that the Minister will comment on the issue himself. The amendment does little to answer the central question, namely, in what precise circumstances would Welsh Ministers need to withdraw recognition? Clause 16(1)(a) states that, for an apprenticeship framework to be issued, there must be an issuing authority. If that is the case, why would Welsh Ministers ever need to withdraw recognition of a framework, as they are allowed to do in clause 17(2)(b)? That is inconsistent. In what circumstances would Welsh Ministers become the issuing authority and withdraw recognition? Is this not another example of a measure that disempowers issuing authorities as much as it empowers them, and consequently disempowers employers, educators and learners? Whether they be Welsh or otherwise, why would Ministers ever want to act in that way? If the Minister can give a persuasive explanation, we will listen and respond in the same spirit.
Siôn Simon (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills; Birmingham, Erdington, Labour)
If a Welsh sector skills council ceases to exist or a framework has to be changed, Welsh Ministers will need the authority to which the hon. Gentleman has referred to make the changes. Under the clause, Welsh Ministers would have to notify themselves formally of having made such a change. That is clearly absurd, hence the need for the amendment.
John Hayes (Shadow Minister, Innovation, Universities and Skills; South Holland and The Deepings, Conservative)
Just to be clear, this is an emergency power then? The Minister suggested that a framework having to be changed and a sector skills council ceasing to exist were synonymous. If a sector skills council ceases to exist, it might be necessary for a Minister to intervene in the short term. Surely a Minister would not have to intervene if a framework were changed because that is within the competence of the sector skills council.
Siôn Simon (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills; Birmingham, Erdington, Labour)
It is not just an emergency power. It is a relatively routine power that will enable Welsh Ministers to make changes that are made by a sector skills council statutory or, as the hon. Gentleman said, to step into the breach if a sector skills council ceases to exist.
John Hayes (Shadow Minister, Innovation, Universities and Skills; South Holland and The Deepings, Conservative)
So this measure is about giving Welsh Ministers the same competence as Ministers outside Wales. I understand the point about notification. It is clear that there was a muddle in the drafting. However, are we giving Welsh Ministers powers that are different from those of Ministers in England?
Siôn Simon (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills; Birmingham, Erdington, Labour)
Yes, in a way. The Welsh situation is very similar, but not identical. In England, the powers will be vested in the chief executive of skills funding under clause 13. The Welsh Assembly Government have chosen to vest the powers in Welsh Ministers, which is why we need this provision. It is a fairly routine provision, which enables the system to work as envisaged. The amendment will just correct a misdraft.
John Hayes (Shadow Minister, Innovation, Universities and Skills; South Holland and The Deepings, Conservative)
It is the nature of parliamentary scrutiny and of the interface between Ministers and shadow Ministers that on occasion things must be taken on trust. That is appropriate when Ministers offer assurances in good faith, as the Minister has in this matter. I will take what he said in good faith and accept that we are not moving from a muddle to a mire, but simply clearing up a muddle.
Siôn Simon (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills; Birmingham, Erdington, Labour)
No.