Clause 8

5:30 pm

John Hayes (Shadow Minister, Innovation, Universities and Skills; South Holland and The Deepings, Conservative)

According to the explanatory notes, clause 8 provides

“that the certifying authority for apprenticeships in Wales will be persons designated for that purpose by the Welsh Ministers.”

Ministers will be aware that, in its report on the draft Bill, the Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Committee expressed concern about the lack of consultation on powers provided under the legislation with respect to Wales. The Government have tabled a series of amendments to clause 8. The Select Committee concluded:

“As the legislation would apply to Wales, we wrote to the Welsh Affairs Committee and the National Assembly for Wales to invite their views. In reply, both the Welsh Affairs Committee and the Enterprise and Learning Committee of the Assembly asked fundamental questions about the application of the provisions in the draft Bill to Wales. The supporting documentation with the draft Bill did not explain how the proposed provisions would be implemented in Wales—the draft Bill would, for example, impose duties on the Learning and Skills Council but it has an England only remit—and no reference was made to apprenticeships in Wales. The Enterprise and Learning Committee was of the opinion that the UK Government’s legislative approach was ‘unsatisfactory and does not reflect well on the UK Government or the Welsh Assembly Government.’ The content and tone of the representations from the two committees raised concerns that consultation on the application of the draft Bill in Wales was inadequate and that it required further consideration.”

We are concerned, and have raised the matter with the Minister. He will know that when similar concerns were expressed to the Minister for Schools and Learners, he reinforced our concerns with his answer that

“you could take more time in coming up with firm draft where you have ironed out everything with Wales and the Welsh Assembly Government, or you can publish a Bill and have this sort of scrutiny, while we carry on our discussions with the Welsh Assembly Government, and then once it comes into something that is then introduced to Parliament...we will at that point have to be clear with our friends in the Welsh Assembly Government which bits they want and which bits they do not.”

That was not one of his more articulate moments, as I am sure that he would be only too happy to acknowledge.

We have grave concerns that the Department has treated consultation with the Welsh Assembly Government and the National Assembly for Wales as an afterthought. The consultation on the operation of apprenticeships in Wales and the application of draft legislation in Wales have clearly been inadequate and we recommend the Government rectify that deficiency before the provisions in the Bill—

Jim Knight (Minister of State (Schools and Learners), Department for Children, Schools and Families; South Dorset, Labour)

I did not catch something that the hon. Gentleman said. How did he think that the Welsh Assembly Government had been treated?

John Hayes (Shadow Minister, Innovation, Universities and Skills; South Holland and The Deepings, Conservative)

I was quoting the Minister of State’s response when the matter was raised with him. My own contention is that the matter was not handled properly in terms of consultation and that was clearly a view reflected by those in the Assembly and those associated with Wales in the House. If they have concerns, I regard it as my duty to make those concerns known at this stage of scrutiny.

It would not be the first time that the Government have run into problems in that regard, as the Minister well knows. In previous Bills, the Welsh dimension, in terms of the application of legislation and the nature of consultation, has been a minefield for Government  Ministers. I hope that the Minister will be able to offer assurances that those matters have been dealt with properly, that the concerns expressed by others have been listened to and acted on, and that there is absolute clarity about the way in which the Bill will apply in Wales. Unless we have those assurances, how can we possibly agree to clause 8?

Siôn Simon (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills; Birmingham, Erdington, Labour)

I am Welsh, although I sit for the nation’s finest city and manufacturing hub, Birmingham.

Stephen Williams (Bristol West, Liberal Democrat)

I would like to say for the record that I am also Welsh, but I sit for England’s finest city, Bristol.

Joan Humble (Blackpool North and Fleetwood, Labour)

Order. I do not think that we should be debating the finest city in England.

Siôn Simon (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills; Birmingham, Erdington, Labour)

We will not resolve that matter today.

The words quoted by the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings are indeed disappointing. They do not reflect my understanding of what has happened and do not characterise the relations that I have had, although I admit that I come relatively late to the process, with the Welsh Assembly Government. As he knows, the devolved arrangements for Scotland and Wales are separate from the English arrangements. As part of the devolution settlement, it is for devolved Administrations to decide exactly how they want to be involved in the process. We wrote to the Welsh Assembly Government. They gave instructions to us on the clauses relating to apprenticeships that they wanted to apply, and counsel then instructed. A number of amendments have been drafted in accordance with the wishes of the Welsh Government. Most of them are relatively minor, but their arrangements are slightly different and they have asked for certain amendments to reflect that. Where we have been happy to facilitate that, there has been nothing but joy in the relations I have had with the Welsh Assembly Government.

John Hayes (Shadow Minister, Innovation, Universities and Skills; South Holland and The Deepings, Conservative)

I appreciate that it is difficult for the Minister to be specific. I am sure that he has received inspirational guidance on the clause—as he will have had on all the clauses in the folder that sits before him—but clearly there is an ongoing concern about the way in which legislation affects the Principality. The expressions of disquiet regarding the Bill, reflected by the comments of the Select Committee in respect of the draft Bill, are not the first time that doubts have been raised about the process and how we consider the way in which legislation applies across England and Wales. In articulating those concerns, I hope that I might have done the House, the Committee and even, may I say, the Government a service. I just hope that the Minister will agree perhaps to come back to the Committee when he has had a chance to reflect and study this matter more carefully with absolute assurances that the doubts that I have raised about clause 8 and its application in Wales will be addressed or have been addressed. I hope that that is reasonable.

Siôn Simon (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills; Birmingham, Erdington, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman is immoderate in his reasonableness. I would have it no other way. But I am not sure that there is much that I can come back to him with by way of reassurance beyond where we already are. I honestly would if I could. I understand the sentiment. I agree that the words of the Select Committee are harsh, worrying and disappointing. Our relations with the Welsh Assembly Government have not been anything like that. There have been no difficulties. I do not in any way mean to diminish the importance of the Select Committee’s views on the matter, which have been looked at very seriously and given full account. Perhaps it is significant that those words come not from the Welsh Assembly Government but from the Select Committee. Perhaps he can draw some comfort from that.