Clause 19
Local Transport Bill [Lords]
10:45 am
Clive Betts (Sheffield, Attercliffe, Labour)
I support the amendments standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley, and I support his argument that there is in general a need for a change. I challenge Conservative Front-Bench Members to explain to my constituents, and to many other people up and down the country who feel considerably disadvantaged by the current arrangements, why no change is needed.
The reality of the situation in South Yorkshire is that in what some would say were the halcyon days of the South Yorkshire transport system we had a cheap fares policy, lots of widely used bus services and, as a result, little congestion. Yes, there were failings, and no one would actually want to return to those precise arrangements, but our present free-for-all, with bus operators in effect determining most of the services that run—or that do not run, in many cases—is unacceptable.
For every three bus passengers in Sheffield at the time of deregulation, there is now only one, and a lot fewer buses to ride on. That is the scale of the fall in bus usage, which we have to do something to correct.
Of course, franchising is a possibility, and there are quality contract arrangements in the current transport legislation, but I think everyone has accepted that the status quo is not feasible for the simple reason that quality contracts have not been used in the form currently available. The “only practicable way” test is one that no authority will meet; indeed, no authority has met it. South Yorkshire began a process to try to meet it because the authority recognised the need to do something about ending the current free-for-all. Wherever we stand on the issue, it certainly cannot be to support the status quo in terms of a piece of legislation that has not yet been operated and is effectively defunct.
We have a choice: either to say that transport authorities, whatever their form, will never have any powers to challenge the current deregulated environment, or that they will have powers, which are effective and can be used where appropriate in their areas. No one on the Labour Benches is arguing that every transport authority in the country has to move to a quality contract situation; simply that an authority should have the right to do so if it is in the best interests of the population in their area. I find it very difficult to understand how there can be any argument against a transport authority with elected members being able to decide what is best for people in their area.
Surely that is a fundamental issue for people such as the hon. Member for Harwich, whose writings about new localism I was reading in The Daily Telegraph the other day; in effect, he was asking why the electorate should bother to go out and vote at local elections when local councils had so few powers, and saying that what we ought to be doing is looking at enhancing the powers of local authorities, so that they could really relate to the electorate in their areas. It was very interesting. I did not agree with absolutely all of it, but the general thrust—that when people vote, they should actually be able to change things and elect a council that delivers the services they want—seems to run completely at odds with the support of Members on his Front Bench for the removal of franchising powers and not allowing elected members at local level to make those decisions. How can a new localism position be supported when a Member wants on the one hand to argue a case for more powers to local councils, and on the other hand, to vote in Parliament to take those powers away and not give them at all?
I am very much of the view that these are matters where the right should be with the local transport authority to have a quality contract situation in their area if they believe that it is best, and they can demonstrate that it is best, for delivering services to the people of their area. It is not just a question of the three-for-one passenger exchange; fares have gone up from the rather famous 10p that used to be paid in South Yorkshire to around £2 for the same journey. It is the constant changes that people cannot get their heads around. People plan their lives; they get a job and have to get there early in the morning so they work out the bus route, but at 42 days’ notice, the bus route changes. That is a fundamental problem.
A man and wife have many happy years of marriage, but one of them has to go into an old persons’ home—we have all talked to people who have had that experience. They find a home that the partner living at home, who does not drive, can reach easily by bus, but then the bus route changes and there is no comeback. They go to the local councillor and their Member of Parliament, who are powerless in those circumstances. That absolutely cannot be right.
I was talking to constituents on Westfield crescent the other day about Crystal Peak, a significant district shopping centre in my constituency where many women work because the hours suit their family lives. The problem is that although the working hours in the shops suit their family lives, they cannot actually get there on the bus because the bus services do not run early in the morning or late at night. Elected members at local level must be given powers to address such problems if they think that is the appropriate way forward.
How can we reach a situation where quality contracts can be put in place, if that is thought right at local level? In London, we clearly have a situation that works. Transport for London makes the decisions, puts the franchises out, private firms tender for them and bus passenger use has grown enormously, so that is a model we can look at. There have been rows about concessionary fare schemes in local authorities up and down the country, where concessionary fares are built on the back of a free market, deregulated environment. A complicated argument is made about operators not being any better or worse off as a result of a concessionary fare scheme. That argument disappears in the London environment because concessionary fares have become part of the tendering process, and all the firms tendering build the concessionary fare arrangements into their tendering process, so there is no administrative nightmare.
I shall try to reinforce some of the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley has already made. Clearly, the Transport Act 2000 did not get the issue of quality contracts right but now we have an opportunity to get it right, and not to replace one set of insuperable barriers with another. There is the democracy argument that the matter is for local decision makers on the transport authority, so we do not need an approvals board and tribunals. Why do we need the approvals board to second-guess and in some cases override or veto a decision? That is the fundamental problem that some of us face.
I respect and understand the Minister’s intention, as I see it, not to override local democracy. I know that she is committed to local councillors having powers and operating them in the best interests of their electorate. I also understand her desire to protect small operators and councils in particular, and to avoid a judicial review position in which courts decide matters, often on a technicality, rather than decisions being taken at local level by whatever process is appropriate. However, I still have worries about the approvals board and the tribunal coming together as part of an extended process; not merely about where power lies in that process, but about the timing.
I was talking to another constituent—I have been talking to quite a few recently because of the local elections—on Ribblesdale drive. She said, “I’ve got a small car, but I generally don’t really want to use it, I’d much sooner use the bus. The problem is on a Sunday there’s no bus service and I have to walk half a mile.” Sheffield has a few hills in it, so she is all right walking down the hill to the bus stop, but getting back, particularly when carrying shopping, is an impossibility. I told her, “I have good news for you. I’m sitting on a Committee next week and we’re going to look at how we can give powers back to local councils, if they wish to take them up, which would enable them to decide the framework and frequency of services.” She said, “Oh, that’s great, and when’s that going to happen?” I said, “Well, we might get the legislation through some time this year, and then the regulations are going to follow, and then, well perhaps another three years afterwards?” She said, “It’s not very quick, can’t we do it any quicker than that?” There will be a lot of public frustration when people understand how long the process could take.
The Minister has said that she wants to lay down maximum time limits for the various processes to be followed in the approvals board and the tribunal. It would be helpful if she indicated what she sees as the way forward. The Passenger Transport Executive Group has said that it could take 18 months for a transport authority to come to a view, after all the necessary consultations, that a quality contract is the right way forward and that it could then take up to another 14 months to go through the approvals board and the tribunal. Although all that is designed to stop judicial review, there is nothing to prevent an operator going for judicial review at the end of the approvals board and tribunal process, which could take up to another six months.
So, it could take three years from the legislation coming into effect to go through all those stages, which would cause an awful lot of frustration for people who do not have access to a bus service, but who desperately need one for economic, social or personal reasons. It would be helpful if my right hon. Friend the Minister said what she sees as a maximum time limit for the process.
My view, as I said, is that local democracy should prevail. I hope that my right hon. Friend responds on the approvals board and what it will be able to do. Reading the Bill carefully, I cannot see any reference to the powers of the approvals board to change or veto a decision of a transport authority being limited in any way. I cannot see anything that limits in any way the powers of an approvals board to say no, or yes with conditions. I may have read the Bill wrongly, but I cannot see that. I worry, because it effectively says not that the approvals board has a view over the process—whether the right process has been followed, which might offer some protection against future judicial review—but that the board has a right to say whether a policy is right or wrong. That is undemocratic, and I find it difficult to support.
If the purpose of the approvals board is to protect authorities, particularly small authorities, from a judicial review process—I hope that we do not get there and that that time is not taken up—why are the powers of the approvals board not limited to looking at whether proper process has been followed by a transport authority, rather than the board having complete power to reverse or change a decision?
The Minister talked about an approvals board perhaps saying not yes or no, but, “Please can we look at some issues again?” It may then enter into a dialogue with the transport authority on the precise details of the scheme proposed—is it correct in every aspect? The board might say, “Yes, we think you have the right approach, but we need to discuss modifying or changing one or two aspects.” How will that be built into the time periods?
The Minister talked about an iterative process between the approvals board and the transport authority. Will that process be open-ended, or time-limited as well? If it is to be an iterative process, will the operators, who might be objecting to a scheme, be part of it? It is difficult to understand how we will be able to have an open public hearing by an approvals board on a quality contract proposal, with the operators presumably putting counter-evidence, but then exclude the operators if the approvals board comes to a view that it wants further discussions. That could get incredibly difficult and complicated.
I might be misreading the Bill, but we must be clear, or we could end up with a time-consuming and complicated process if the legislation is passed in its current form. If the intention is to ensure that the process is done correctly to avoid judicial review, why do we need an approvals board and a tribunal? Why two bodies instead of one? Why not simply have a tribunal, for example, which could look at whether process had been followed properly? I hope that, through such a mechanism, we might avoid the need for judicial review.
There has been some discussion about the economists working with traffic commissioners to test the viability of schemes, but I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley that viability will be tested by the tendering process. That is what will happen. If an authority has to justify in public—through the approvals board process and then an interim discussion—precisely what the viability of the scheme is deemed to be, will that not put into the public domain an awful lot of confidential information on the economics of the tendering process? It will undermine the authority’s position when it puts the scheme out to tender. I raise that issue because it is interesting to know the Government’s thinking on how the process will operate.
Finally, the approvals board could have another role. As my hon. Friend mentioned, that is perhaps down to the Liberal Democrat suggestion to which I referred earlier. If there is a need for expert external advice, the approvals board perhaps ought be able to give that while the transport authority is considering the adoption of a quality contract. It could feed in at that stage so that it would not add to the time period, but would inform the process without having a veto. For example, the Environment Agency is a statutory consultee on flooding matters. That proposal would not give a veto to a non-appointed body nor would it extend the time period, but it would achieve a better-informed decision that should strengthen the authority’s position if a judicial review challenge were to take place.
My position is clear. Given the general support across the House for devolving more powers and for giving a thrust to localism—supporting it to ensure that our constituents get a better deal and get the bus services that they need—it is right that we change the current process on quality contracts and give authorities the right to have them. We must also examine carefully whether the process laid down under the Bill is right one and whether we should make changes to it to allow local democracy to have much greater force and impact.