Clause 3
Local Transport Bill [Lords]
12:30 pm
Norman Baker (Shadow Secretary of State for Transport, Transport; Lewes, Liberal Democrat)
I welcome that contribution from the hon. Gentleman. The Minister was telling us how fond she is of consultation. Here is an opportunity for her to live up to that immediately on the amendment we are discussing. It is interesting that the hon. Member for Wimbledon and I have come up with two amendments, entirely without collusion, which point in exactly the same direction, identifying the same omission from the Bill. [Interruption.] We do not always get on very well, but the fact that we have both alighted on what is a glaring omission tends to suggest that perhaps there is a case that ought to be taken forward. The hon. Member for Eccles has also hinted at the need to consult passenger groups, for which I am grateful.
The Minister will say, perhaps, that we would make exhaustive lists of consultees. That is the normal defence that the Government bring forward when we try to include particular people whom we think ought to be consulted, but in reality she is hoist by her own petard because she has already made an exhaustive list in the clause. If she had stopped at paragraphs (a), (b) and (c)—Scottish and Welsh Ministers—one might understand it, but she has actually gone further by adding traffic commissioners and transport operators and, under pressure from the Lords, paragraph (e) relating to local government. That still omits passengers. Had the Minister not specified bus operators and local government one might have thought that there was a case for not including bus passengers, but as she has included those groups it seems difficult to justify the omission of passengers at this stage. It would be better to mention no one rather than to have a skewed list.
Can we rely on the statutory consultees always to represent the views of passengers? No, we cannot. The interests of bus operators are predominantly about making money and it does not necessarily follow that a good service to the public makes them the most money. Does it follow that local government or integrated transport authorities will want to help passengers? One would hope so, but perhaps with budget constraints that would not necessarily be the case. In fact, those bodies are not at the sharp end. They sit in committee rooms making decisions, as we are today, without travelling on buses and understanding the problems at the sharp end. Can we rely on traffic commissioners or Ministers? No, we cannot.
There is a need for bus passengers themselves to be represented in some shape or form. I am afraid that they are not represented, and that is an omission. I hope that the Minister will be honest enough to accept that point and adopt one of the two amendments or table one of her own formulation on Report.