Schedule 9
Housing and Regeneration Bill
11:00 am
Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)
I beg to move amendment No. 137, in schedule 9, page 162, line 40, at end insert—
‘( ) in subsection (1) for “Secretary of State’s” substitute “appropriate national body’s”,’.
Roger Gale (North Thanet, Conservative)
With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 138 to 146 and 148 to 153.
Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)
Sections 34 and 43 of the Housing Act 1985 provide powers to the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to grant consent to a local authority to dispose of tenanted properties. I am disappointed that the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire is not here to combat these points with me.
The schedule amends those sections to preserve certain requirements and definitions that would otherwise be lost through repeal of section 135 of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993. That section requires that a local authority first be accepted by the Secretary of State on an annual disposals programme before seeking her consent to dispose of 500 or more tenanted homes under section 34 or 43 of the 1985 Act. The amendments to schedule 9 are intended to remove that prerequisite.
The amendments are relatively technical and are intended to ensure the correct application of the law in England and Wales following the devolution settlement, as housing is now a matter devolved to the Welsh Ministers. They simply replace references to the Secretary of State in sections 34 and 43 of the 1985 Act with the term “appropriate national body”, which is defined as the Secretary of State in England and Welsh Ministers in Wales.
Amendments made: No. 138, in schedule 9, page 163, line 1, leave out ‘(4A),’ and insert ‘(4A)—
(i) for “Secretary of State” substitute “appropriate national body”,
(ii) ’.
No. 139, in schedule 9, page 163, line 3, leave out ‘by a local authority in England, the Secretary of State’s’ and insert ‘, the appropriate national body’s’.
No. 140, in schedule 9, page 163, line 6, at end insert—
‘(iii) in paragraph (d) for “he” substitute “the appropriate national body”, and’.
No. 141, in schedule 9, page 163, line 10, leave out ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national body’.
No. 142, in schedule 9, page 163, line 13, at end insert—
‘“appropriate national body”—
(a) in relation to England, means the Secretary of State; and
(b) in relation to Wales, means the Welsh Ministers;’.
No. 143, in schedule 9, page 163, line 38, leave out ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national body’.
No. 144, in schedule 9, page 163, line 49, leave out ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national body’.
No. 145, in schedule 9, page 164, line 18, leave out ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national body’.
No. 146, in schedule 9, page 164, line 22, leave out ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national body’.—[Mr. Wright.]
Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)
I beg to move amendment No. 147, in schedule 9, page 164, line 23, leave out from ‘which’ to the end of line 25 and insert ‘—
(i) in the case of an order made by the Secretary of State, is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament; and
(ii) in the case of an order made by the Welsh Ministers, is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of the National Assembly for Wales;’.
The amendment ensures correct application of the law in England and Wales following the devolution settlement. As I mentioned earlier, housing is a matter devolved to Welsh Ministers, and sections 34 and 43 of the Housing Act 1985 provide powers to the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to grant consent to a local authority to dispose of tenanted properties. As already mentioned, section 135 of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993 requires that a local authority first be accepted by the Secretary of State on an annual disposals programme before seeking her consent to a large-scale disposal under sections 34 or 43.
Schedule 9 repeals section 135, but amends sections 34 and 43 to preserve certain requirements and definitions otherwise lost. One requirement is that the cost to the Exchequer of any large-scale disposal be considered before consent is given, and the amendments provide powers to make orders with respect to such disposals. The orders might amend the number of homes considered to constitute a large-scale disposal, which is currently 500 or more, or the time period during which a large-scale disposal might be deemed to have taken place, which is currently five years ending with the date of the disposal. There are other transitional and supplementary provisions as deemed necessary.
The amendment simply makes it clear that any such order, if made by the Secretary of State, will be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution by either House, while any such order made by Welsh Ministers will be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of the National Assembly for Wales. As with the earlier group of amendments, this is a technical matter to take into account the devolution settlement. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will accept the amendment.
Lembit Öpik (Shadow Minister (Housing), Department for Communities and Local Government; Montgomeryshire, Liberal Democrat)
The Minister is probably not aware that there was a huge amount of debate on the relative jurisdiction of the Welsh Assembly and the Secretary of State for Wales following the most recent Government of Wales Bill. In essence, the argument was that those most in favour of devolution were concerned that the Secretary of State had, at least in theory, the power to disregard the wishes of the Welsh Assembly. Conceptually, given the technical elements of the legislation, that could recentralise decision making in Westminster regardless of the wishes of the Assembly.
I recognise that the Minister may not be able to answer the question now, but in that case I would be grateful if he would write to me. Can he clarify whether there is any situation in which an order made by Welsh Ministers could be annulled or modified by the Secretary of State for Wales? I stress again; he may not have the answer now, but, in the Welsh context, it would help me to have an answer at some point.
Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)
The hon. Gentleman is right; I do not have the answer to hand, but I will write to him and copy other Members of the Committee in.
Amendments made: No. 148, in schedule 9, page 164 line 30, leave out ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national body’.
No. 149, in schedule 9, page 164, line 38, at end insert—
‘( ) in subsection (1) for “Secretary of State” substitute “appropriate national body”,’.
No. 150, in schedule 9, page 164, line 39, leave out ‘(4A),’ and insert ‘(4A)—
(i) for “Secretary of State” substitute “appropriate national body”,
(ii) ’.
No. 151, in schedule 9, page 164, line 42, leave out ‘by a local authority in England, the Secretary of State’s’ and insert ‘, the appropriate national body’s’.
No. 152, in schedule 9, page 164, line 44, at end insert—
‘(iii) in paragraph (d) for “he” substitute “the appropriate national body”, and’.
No. 153, in schedule 9, page 164, line 48, leave out ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national body’.—[Mr. Wright.]
Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)
I beg to move amendment No. 154, in schedule 9, page 165, line 8, at end insert—
‘Housing Act 1988 (c. 50)
In section 133(3) of the Housing Act 1988 (consent required for certain subsequent disposals)—
(a) in paragraph (a) for “and (3) to (4A)” substitute “, (3), (4) and (4A)(a) to (c) and (d)”,
(b) in paragraph (b) for “and (3) to (4A)” substitute “, (3), (4) and (4A)(a) to (c) and (d)”, and
(c) in paragraph (c) for “(4A)” substitute “(4A)(a) to (c) and (d)”.’.
Roger Gale (North Thanet, Conservative)
With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendment No. 155.
Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)
Amendment No. 154 is a consequential amendment necessitated by amendments to the Housing Act 1985 caused by Schedule 9 to the Bill. Section 133 of the Housing Act 1988 deals with onward disposals of homes. It requires that should an organisation, which in practically every case is a registered social landlord, want to dispose of homes that a local authority has transferred to it—as a result of the Secretary of State granting her consent to do so, under section 34 or 43 of the Housing Act 1985—it must obtain the consent of the Secretary of State before doing so.
The requirement was introduced to give local authority tenants whose homes were passing out of local authority ownership some comfort that, should their new landlords want to sell on their homes, the Secretary of State would ensure that they were properly protected. Section 133 requires that before granting consent the Secretary of State should take into account matters considered when granting the original consent under section 34 or 43. The amendment does not change the position; indeed, it preserves it. It is necessary because the current provision refers to section 135 of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993, which schedule 9 repeals.
The amendment requires the Secretary of State to consider the Exchequer costs of a further disposal because that should have no impact on Exchequer costs. If a local authority makes the onward transfer, so the transfer is the first transfer away from local authority ownership, the Secretary of State will be required to give consent under section 32 or 43 of the Housing Act 1985, and will consider the Exchequer costs in that event and at that time. Value for money and any effect on the public purse is already considered as part of the consent process.
The first part of amendment No. 155 is simply a clarification. Schedule 9 ensures that definitions contained in section 135 of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993 are preserved by inserting them into section 136 of that Act. The amendment makes it clear that the reference to the Secretary of State in the transplanted definitions should be read in the same way as references to the Secretary of State elsewhere in that section.
The second part of amendment No. 155 relates to definitions of social landlords and registered charities for the purposes of section 51 in schedule 1 to the Housing Act 1996. The definitions include a body that had been the recipient of a large-scale disposal of property by a local authority under section 135 of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993.
As I have said several times this morning, schedule 9 repeals section 135 but retains the definition of a large-scale disposal through amendments to section 34 or 43 of the 1985 Act. The amendment therefore amends the definitions in the Housing Act 1996 to ensure that they include organisations that have inherited a large-scale disposal of stock either under section 135 or in future under the amended sections 34 or 43.
I hope that I have explained the situation adequately.
Amendment made: No. 155, in schedule 9, page 165, line 44, at end insert—
‘(5) The reference to the Secretary of State in subsection (15) of section 136 of the Act of 1993, as inserted by sub-paragraph (3) above, is to be read in the same way as other references to the Secretary of State in that section of that Act.
Housing Act 1996 (c. 52)
(1) The Housing Act 1996 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 51(2)(b) (schemes for investigation of complaints) for “a qualifying disposal” substitute “—
(i) a large scale disposal, within the meaning of section 34 of the Housing Act 1985, for which consent was required under section 32 or 43 of that Act; or
(ii) a qualifying disposal that was made”.
(3) In paragraph 5(1)(b) of Part 2 of Schedule 1 (constitution, change of rules, amalgamation and dissolution: restriction on power of removal in case of registered charity) for “a qualifying disposal” substitute “—
(i) a large scale disposal, within the meaning of section 34 of the Housing Act 1985, for which consent was required under section 32 or 43 of that Act, or
(ii) a qualifying disposal that was made”.
(4) In paragraph 28(1)(b) of Part 4 of Schedule 1 (inquiry into affairs of registered social landlords: availability of powers in relation to registered charities) for “a qualifying disposal” substitute “—
(i) a large scale disposal, within the meaning of section 34 of the Housing Act 1985, for which consent was required under section 32 or 43 of that Act, or
(ii) a qualifying disposal that was made”.’.—[Mr. Wright.]