Clause 247
Housing and Regeneration Bill
3:15 pm
Alistair Burt (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; North East Bedfordshire, Conservative)
I am slightly puzzled as to who, apart from a potential purchaser, will want or need to see the certificates. The clause is all about how to deal with someone who will not produce one. If a certificate is not produced when required, surely the buyer will not complete the sale, so I am puzzled as to why the clause is necessary, particularly as we shall go on to talk about enforcement and penalties for people who do not produce certificates as required. In what circumstances will the power be needed?
Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)
As we are making it mandatory to provide information on the sustainability of new homes, we need an arm to enforce that.
Alistair Burt (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; North East Bedfordshire, Conservative)
But my point is that if I were a purchaser and I knew that I needed a certificate, my lawyer would not let me complete the sale unless I had received it. Why would anyone else need to be involved? If the vendor did not produce one, I would not go ahead with the sale, so it is in their interests to produce one. Who else needs to be involved?
Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)
I accept that it is in the vendor’s interests to produce it, but not all information is always provided. Given that it is mandatory to provide a certificate, we need to have an enforcement element. It is similar to the situation with HIPs. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman wants to lead me down that route, but I shall go down it anyway. Home information packs are mandatory on all properties now, but in some cases they are not provided and we need enforcement. It is a natural part of business, and it seems reasonable.
Alistair Burt (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; North East Bedfordshire, Conservative)
The Minister is doing well, but he is struggling on this issue. If, when buying a property, I need to see the HIP or the sustainability certificate before I complete the transaction, but it does not happen, I will not go ahead, so it is at the vendor’s expense if they do not comply.
However, the clause talks about
“an authorised officer of an enforcement authority”.
Who is the authorised officer, what is he authorised to do, and why? I am not trying to harass the Minister or chase him down the HIPs route. That job is usually done spectacularly well by my hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield—and has been for several months. Genuinely, who will turn up on the doorstep of a new house, as an authorised officer in a uniform, like Deryck Guyler in “Please Sir!”, if the Minister remembers it from days gone by, and say, “I am from”—whatever it is—“and I demand to see your sustainability certificate, and if not I have these powers”?
I am intrigued as to how far the measure goes, because as the Minister knows, there are national newspapers that are very concerned about the increasing powers of people who would do just what I have described, and it may be that a word will have to be had with those papers, because they might be very interested. That is not a threat at all, but I am genuinely puzzled about the circumstances in which the Minister sees an authorised officer wanting to do what I have described. Who would ask them to do it?
Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)
I do not want to labour the point, but enforcement is a natural and necessary arm of such a mandatory measure. I shall use the risk-based approach and suggest to the hon. Gentleman that if a buyer complained to the trading standards officer, and said, “I have not got a certificate,” the officer would investigate.
Alistair Burt (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; North East Bedfordshire, Conservative)
I would not buy the property.
Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)
That might be true. I do not remember “Please Sir!”, as I am far too young for that, but I do not foresee armies of people with peaked caps knocking on doors or getting people out of bed at 3 o’clock in the morning to look at their sustainability certificate. I do not anticipate that—certainly not in such a liberal democracy as the one in which we live.
The approach will be risk-based and prompted by the buyer perhaps complaining to trading standards. It will be based on the risk-based weights and measures approach that trading standards takes. There could be spot-checks, but I do not think that the hon. Gentleman will be knocked out of bed at 3 o’clock in the morning by somebody from “Please Sir!”
Alistair Burt (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; North East Bedfordshire, Conservative)
I have listened intently, and the Minister has reassured me about what will not happen; however, he has not yet given me a concrete example of what might happen and why. If a buyer cannot get hold of a certificate, he will not complete the purchase, so it is the vendor’s problem, not the buyer’s. I should not go rushing off to trading standards office in those circumstances. I remain to be convinced that there is a purpose in an authorised officer seeking the certificate in certain circumstances, but if the Minister were to find, on reflection, one or two examples and he wanted to send them to the Committee, I would be interested. However, I have no wish to press the case any more.
Robert Syms (Poole, Conservative)
My hon. Friend has got me interested. One is just trying to think of circumstances in which a certificate would not be given, and one can think only of a repossession, in which a house might be sold, although the certificate still might be available; an estate; or a situation in which somebody had died and the executors were selling on something. It is difficult to think of circumstances, different from those described, in which it is the interests of the seller to provide a certificate.
Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)
The hon. Gentleman talked about two specific situations: a repossession and somebody dying. However, they would probably involve existing stock, and we are discussing new homes, so the situation would be slightly different.
I return to my point about my risk-based approach on trading standards. Somebody who is buying a property may complain to trading standards, as happens on a daily basis on a whole range of matters, such as the service provided in a shop or by a door-to-door salesman. Such complaints can be initiated and will not mean that we are living in a police state where people are knocked out of bed at 3 o’clock in the morning.