Grant Shapps (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; Welwyn Hatfield, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 6, in clause 38, page 17, line 25, leave out ‘as it considers appropriate’ and insert

‘before making such a determination’.

The amendment is intended to clarify some vague wording in the clause. Its purpose is to ensure that the HCA must consult bodies representing the interests of registered providers of social housing before making a determination. On page 17, clause 38(2) states:

“Before making a determination, the HCA must consult...

(b) such other persons as it considers appropriate.”

The other day we debated who “other persons” might be. It was unclear at the time, but the Minister kindly gave some clarification later in the day. “Other persons” seemed to include people other than those whom I had suggested would be included, so I would be interested to know which “other people” subsection (2)(b) refers to.

The amendment would leave out the words “as it considers appropriate” and insert

“before making such a determination”,

to remove the vagueness of the wording and tighten up the fact that there should be more specific consultation before determination under clauses 36 and 37. Who are envisaged as “other persons” in that context, and will the Minister consider tightening up the language to ensure that specific consultation must take place?

Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)

I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that the amendment would not really add anything to the effect of the clause. I draw his attention to subsection (4), which states:

“The HCA must, in particular, consult such bodies appearing to it to represent the interests of registered providers of social housing as it considers appropriate.”

The amendment would leave out “as it considers appropriate”, and would thus apparently require the agency to consult all bodies representative of registered providers of social housing, rather than just those the agency considered appropriate, which would, I suggest, remove the agency’s discretion as to whom it may consult.

I know that the hon. Gentleman says that the amendment would avoid vagueness, but it would mean that the agency did not have discretion, which would increase the risk of the agency’s decisions being successfully challenged due to a failure to consult every single representative body, including those unaffected by particular determinations. That could be unwieldy and unnecessarily bureaucratic. I am sure that is not what the hon. Gentleman intended, although I understand the sentiment behind the amendment. To avoid that vagueness and ensure that the agency has a degree of discretion, I hope that he will withdraw the amendment.

Grant Shapps (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; Welwyn Hatfield, Conservative)

I understand what the Minister says, and far be it from me to want legislation that is more cumbersome and bureaucratic than it needs to be, but I did not understand from his response who the “other persons” are. May I press him on that point?

Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)

I am afraid that I shall have to disappoint the hon. Gentleman. It would depend on the particular circumstances, and it would be whoever the agency considered appropriate.

Grant Shapps (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; Welwyn Hatfield, Conservative)

Will the Minister at least clarify who he imagines the “other people” might be?

Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)

We could perhaps take a particular circumstance and then suggest who might be considered appropriate. A wide range of circumstances might be covered, and the agency needs considerable discretion when deciding who to bring forward. I, therefore, throw the question back at the hon. Gentleman: if he can suggest a particular circumstance, we could bat it about further.

Grant Shapps (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; Welwyn Hatfield, Conservative)

I am still curious, because not a single name or organisation has been mentioned. I want to clarify whether the Minister understands the intention of the clause. The other day, it turned out that nobody in the Committee knew which persons were meant to be represented under a particular clause. It took some time, and a lunch break, to calculate the list. I should be grateful if the Minister could tell us what is meant by “such other persons”, and if he could provide us with examples of whom they might be. However, if he cannot but could undertake to find out and tell us later, I would be happy to withdraw the amendment.

Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)

I am happy to do that. However, I repeat that it would be extraordinarily helpful for me, in order to provide some clarification and to reassure the hon. Gentleman, if he could suggest particular circumstances in which we might consider the proposal appropriate.

Grant Shapps (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; Welwyn Hatfield, Conservative)

I did not draft the legislation, and it needs to be explained by those who did—the Government. It is not unreasonable to ask what a particular line in legislation means, and it is for the Minister to provide that clarification to the Committee, rather than the other way around.

Mr. Wright rose—

Joe Benton (Bootle, Labour)

Order. We cannot go on like this for too long. We have reached the point when either the amendment must be pressed or withdrawn. Having said that, I shall allow the Minister to reply one more time.

Iain Wright (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Communities and Local Government; Hartlepool, Labour)

One of the groups that would usually be consulted is the National Housing Federation, but there would be others, too. I hope that reassures the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield.

Grant Shapps (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government; Welwyn Hatfield, Conservative)

I should be grateful if the Minister would send me a letter with further details about the matter, but, taking your advice, Mr. Benton, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.