(Except clauses 3, 5, 6, 15, 21, 49, 90 and 117 and new clauses amending section 74 of the Finance Act 2003)
Finance Bill
10:30 am
Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield, Conservative)
May I welcome members on both sides of the Committee to the first sitting of the Finance Bill 2008. I am confident that it will be a well ordered and constructive Committee, with no wasting of time and maximum positive involvement so that all matters relating to the Bill that are of particular concern to the Opposition parties are debated.
I want to outline one or two domestic Committee arrangements. Members may, with the permission of the Chairman, remove their jackets if they so wish. Will they please all ensure that electronic devices, mobile phones and pagers are turned off or are switched to silent mode during sittings? I must confess that, if they go off and I identify the hon. Member, and that person seeks to be called, I shall be inclined to use a Nelson—and turn a blind eye. I remind hon. Members that adequate notice should be given of amendments. As a general rule, I and my fellow Chairmen do not intend to call starred amendments, including any that might be reached during an afternoon sitting.
Jane Kennedy (Financial Secretary, HM Treasury; Liverpool, Wavertree, Labour)
I beg to move,
That the Committee shall meet—
(a) on Tuesdays at 10.30 a.m. and 4.30 p.m., and
(b) on Thursdays at 9.00 a.m. and 1.00 p.m.,
when the House is sitting.
Sir Nicholas, what a pleasure it is to be here under your chairmanship. I am also pleased that Mr. Cook and Mr. Hood will be sharing the duty of chairing the Committee. I know that your wealth of experience and skill will keep us in order and make sure that our debates are to the point. I look forward to the next few weeks during which the Bill will be scrutinised. I welcome Mr. Sandall to his role. I also extend a welcome to the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge who will be leading for the official Opposition. I am sure that we shall have a number of lively and interesting debates. I welcome also the hon. Member for Taunton and his colleagues who represent the Liberal Democrats, and the hon. Member for Dundee, East.
I welcome my colleagues on the Labour Benches, as I do the Exchequer Secretary and, in particular, the Economic Secretary. It is good to see her back after her short leave from us. We are delighted that she has been able to bring forward little George. We welcome him. I am sure that we will have a good Committee. I know that we shall have cause to be grateful to the organisations that have made representations to us during our deliberations. They always help to shed light on areas that would perhaps otherwise be obscure to members of the Committee, and I look forward to our debates being informed by the information that has been put forward.
Philip Hammond (Shadow Chief Secretary To the Treasury, Treasury; Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)
I join the right hon. Lady in her comments. I am delighted to have the opportunity once again to serve on a Committee under your chairmanship, Sir Nicholas, and that of Mr. Cook and Mr. Hood. Finance Bills do not always attract this degree of public interest, and it is not entirely clear to me that each clause and schedule of the Bill will be scrutinised with the same enthusiasm by the media and the electorate, but some of them certainly will be.
Our job as an Opposition, and that of the other Opposition parties represented on the Committee, is to scrutinise what the Government propose, explore the alternatives and establish whether they have properly looked at all of the alternatives and considered the representations that are made by experts outside the Committee and the House, in order to test the robustness of the Government’s thinking.
We shall no doubt hear during the Committee’s proceedings, in response to Opposition amendments, a lot of nonsense about how we and others are making spending or tax-cutting commitments. It was clear from the debate on the Floor of the House last week that not all Members understand the conventions and rules relating to Finance Bills, so it might be worth placing on the record the fact that, while Opposition Members and Government Back Benchers may table amendments proposing reductions in taxation, it is the prerogative of Ministers of the Crown to table amendments that would increase taxation.
Frankly, that leaves Opposition Members in some difficulty when trying to present balanced alternatives to Government proposals. Members of Opposition parties have no difficulty when presenting their ideas in the round during debate—perhaps I anticipate what the hon. Member for Taunton will say to us in a few moments in relation to amendment No. 1—but in response to the cry, “Why have you not tabled an amendment to do it?” the answer will often be that we simply are not able to get amendments selected that would present a balanced package response to some of the Government’s proposals.
This Finance Bill has attracted an unusual level of public interest—at least in relation to certain provisions—and I hope that we will have a genuine debate on the Government side on some of those provisions. In other words, I hope that the Government Whips have failed in their efforts to create an entirely sanitised Public Bill Committee, and that we will have some contributions from Labour Members. I have been looking at the majorities that some of them enjoy, and they will be extremely focused on the public debate about some elements of the Bill. I hope that we will hear from them and have an opportunity to debate with them as their minds are focused by events going on around us. I have no objection to the sittings motion that the right hon. Lady has proposed and look forward to the progress of the Committee’s business.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the order in which proceedings are taken shall be: Clauses 1 and 2; Schedule 1; Clause 4; Schedule 2; Clause 7; Schedule 3; Clause 8; Schedule 4; Clauses 9 to 12; Schedule 5; Clauses 13 and 14; Schedule 6; Clauses 16 to 20; Clause 24; Schedule 8; Clause 25; Schedule 9; Clause 26; Schedule 10; Clauses 27 to 29; Schedule 11; Clauses 30 and 31; Schedule 12; Clauses 32 and 33; Schedules 13 and 14; Clause 34; Schedule 15; Clause 35; Schedule 16; Clauses 36 to 40; Schedule 17; Clause 41; Schedule 18; Clauses 42 to 48 and 50; Schedule 19; Clauses 51 and 52; Schedule 20; Clauses 53 to 57; Schedule 21; Clauses 58 and 59; Schedule 22; Clause 60; Schedule 23; Clauses 61 to 71; Schedule 24; Clauses 72 to 76; Schedule 25; Clauses 77 to 79; Schedule 26; Clauses 80 and 81; Schedule 27; Clauses 82 to 88; Schedule 28; Clause 89; Schedule 29 Clause 91; Schedule 30; Clauses 92 to 94; Schedule 31; Clauses 95 and 96; Schedule 32; Clauses 97 to 102; Schedule 33; Clauses 103 and 104; Schedule 34; Clauses 105 and 106; Schedule 35; Clauses 107 and 108; Schedule 36; Clauses 109 and 110; Schedule 37; Clause 111; Schedule 38; Clauses 112 and 113; Schedule 39; Clauses 114 to 116; Schedule 40; Clause 118; Schedule 41; Clauses 119 and 120; Schedule 42; Clauses 121 to 124; Schedule 43; Clauses 125 to 132; Schedule 44; Clauses 133 to 139; Schedule 45; Clauses 140 to 151; Schedule 46; Clauses 152 to 158; Clauses 22 and 23; Schedule 7; new Clauses; new Schedules; and Clauses 159 and 160.—[Jane Kennedy.]
Philip Hammond (Shadow Chief Secretary To the Treasury, Treasury; Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)
It is all right, Sir. Nicholas—we have only known each other for 11 years.
Philip Hammond (Shadow Chief Secretary To the Treasury, Treasury; Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)
You do. [Laughter.]
I notice that the order of consideration is chronological, with the exception of clauses 22 and 23, so will the Financial Secretary take a moment to explain why the Government’s view is that clauses 22 and 23 should be considered at the very end of the Committee’s proceedings?
Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield, Conservative)
Before I call the Financial Secretary, I say to the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, who is leading for the Opposition, that my error was in no way intentional.
Jane Kennedy (Financial Secretary, HM Treasury; Liverpool, Wavertree, Labour)
Mr. Winterton—[Hon. Members: “Sir Nicholas.”] Sir Nicholas, we have also known each other a long time.
The slight deviation from chronological order means that clause 22 will be considered at the end of the Committee’s deliberations. That is because it concerns an extremely technical area that we have been working very hard to get right. There may be further amendments to those proposals, not on the detail of them, but to ensure that the detail of the Bill is right. It will take my advisers a little longer to be certain that those proposals are drafted exactly as we want them to appear in law. We did not schedule clause 22 for discussion at the end of the Committee’s deliberations so that there was not an opportunity to discuss it. We did so to ensure that it is absolutely right before we put it into law.
Philip Hammond (Shadow Chief Secretary To the Treasury, Treasury; Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)
I am grateful to the Financial Secretary for that clarification. I note that these proposals were first announced in the pre-Budget report. There has subsequently been somewhat of a U-turn on how they will be implemented. From what she has said, it appears that the Government are still thinking about the wisdom of some of the detailed measures in clauses 22 and 23. She has rightly identified the importance of those measures.
As you know, Sir Nicholas, the Opposition’s concern is that it is not unheard of for a Finance Bill to run into the mud and slow down so that new clauses have to be dealt with very quickly at the end. We are concerned that we must not get into a situation where we are left with a choice between debating clauses 22 and 23 and debating the new clauses that will be tabled during the consideration of the Bill. Will the Financial Secretary assure the Committee that if we are faced with such a choice, the Government Whip will be wheeled into action and the Government will give favourable consideration to an extension of the Committee’s sitting period?
I do not think that the Financial Secretary would regard it as appropriate if measures as important as those contained in clauses 22 and 23, which are likely to have a significant effect on the UK’s future economic performance and its status as an international business location, were considered under extreme pressure of time. We would certainly not regard that as appropriate. Everything that we do is under the pressure of time, but it would not be appropriate to consider such measures under unreasonable or extreme pressures of time.
I know that the Financial Secretary cannot give a specific answer today because we do not know how the progress of the Committee will go. However, I hope that she shares the sentiment that proper time must be made available for the discussion of clauses 22 and 23, and not at the expense of the proper consideration of new clauses, one of which has already been tabled. I can assure you that many more will be tabled during the course of the Committee, Sir Nicholas.
Jane Kennedy (Financial Secretary, HM Treasury; Liverpool, Wavertree, Labour)
I believe that we have agreed between us sufficient time to deal with all the issues that might arise during the Committee. In my experience, how much time is allocated to issues of importance is often in the hands of Opposition Members. We have arranged for those clauses to be discussed at the end for the reasons that I have explained, and not to avoid discussing them. I hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but on such matters, it is for him, his hon. Friends and the usual channels to ensure that we manage the time between us effectively and efficiently.
Mark Hoban (Shadow Minister, Treasury; Fareham, Conservative)
Will the Financial Secretary give the Committee an assurance about the timing of the tabling of amendments to clauses 22 and 23? Those clauses have attracted considerable outside interest, and those representative bodies will want to comment on them and perhaps encourage members on both sides of the Committee to table alternative amendments to achieve different or the same sort of outcomes. Can the Financial Secretary tell us when she expects amendments on clauses 22 and 23 to be tabled, to give proper time for consideration?
Jane Kennedy (Financial Secretary, HM Treasury; Liverpool, Wavertree, Labour)
We will expose the new draft of those provisions as soon as possible. I would not wish the procedures of the Committee to stand in the way of important new clauses that Opposition Members wish to see. I cannot give a specific deadline, but I will do so as soon as it is available. Amendments and new clauses should be tabled as soon as possible. The detail of clause 22 and the related schedules on residence and non-domicile arrangements have been in the public domain for some time, and representations are being made. The hon. Gentleman is right that it is necessary to get the rules right so that people affected by them have certainty about their tax affairs. I am absolutely clear on that, and hope to assure him that we do not intend to use or manoeuvre the Committee to reduce that time; I simply do not have a date.
Stewart Hosie (Spokesperson (Economy; Home Affairs; Treasury; Women); Dundee East, Scottish National Party)
I am confident that the Financial Secretary will publish the amendments as soon as they are available. If the amendments appear very late, and they are impenetrable and complicated, would she and Treasury team provide an explanatory note to indicate what their intention is?
Jane Kennedy (Financial Secretary, HM Treasury; Liverpool, Wavertree, Labour)
I am sure that we can do that; I give that undertaking to the Committee.
Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield, Conservative)
Before I put the question, may I say from the Chair that it is important for proper consideration of such an important Bill that the usual channels ensure that the Opposition parties have an opportunity to raise issues. Otherwise, the purpose of the Committee stage of a Public Bill is, in my view, completely negated. I hope that the Government will take account of that, and provide adequate time for those clauses, schedules and new clauses that the Opposition parties wish to debate. If I see any bad practice in seeking to ensure that parts of the Bill are not discussed, I shall seek to use what little influence a Chairman has.