David Laws (Shadow Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families, Children, Schools and Families; Yeovil, Liberal Democrat)

Good morning, Mr. Bayley, and welcome back to the Chair. We have already made rapid progress today, but I hope that the Minister, who looks in particularly perky form, does not expect us to get through all the clauses and amendments with the speed that he dealt with Government amendments Nos. 132 and 133.

The clauses that we are about to debate are not ones that we support passionately. Indeed, we have tabled amendments to delete clauses 6, 7, 8 and 9 from the Bill. We gave our reasons for that when we discussed clause 5, and I am sure that the Minister will be relieved to hear me say that I do not need to repeat the arguments now. Some of our forthcoming debates will be about dealing with the problems in the Government’s approach, accepting that we have already discussed whether the overall approach is the right one to take.

Clause 6 defines relevant training or education for people who, under the Bill, will be obliged to engage in training or education while in employment. It specifies that that must consist of “a course or courses” leading to a qualification accredited by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority. Amendment No. 162 and, to some extent, amendments Nos. 12, 13 and 32, tabled by the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton and his colleagues, deal with two concerns about the clause. The first is about the definition and meaning of “relevant” in respect of the qualifications and the extent to which that will restrict the qualifications that young people can obtain. The second concerns the nature of the qualifications to which people will be restricted—whether they must be QCA-approved qualifications—and whether that restriction is sensible and gives the desirable flexibility. We have received representations from outside bodies that are worried about whether it is sensible for the clause to be so restrictive.

Amendment No. 162 was suggested to us by the National Union of Teachers to address its concerns about relevance, which was the first issue that I raised today. In a briefing note that it prepared for the Committee, which other hon. Members may have seen, it states:

“It seems that those in full-time education are able to undertake appropriate learning opportunities which do not necessarily lead to a qualification. Those in full-time occupation, however, must undergo training or education that is ‘relevant’ i.e. leads to a relevant qualification or a course of study that is of use to the employer and not necessarily of interest to the young person.”

I had not originally registered that point. I had assumed that there would be a large degree of flexibility in how those obligations were applied. It will be interesting to know whether the intention of the Bill is to be restricted in the way that the NUT is concerned about, or whether, in fact, it will allow for greater latitude. The NUT in its briefing note cites the example of a young person who might be working as a car mechanic and asks whether they would be able to take a course in something like accountancy, which might be seen to have no relevance to being a car mechanic but might be very useful for their future educational needs.

We just want some clarity from the Minister about whether the word “relevant” implies that the education and training taken up by young people should relate to  the employment, or whether it could be unrelated to the employment but of use to the young person later in life. That is incredibly important. If we are placing this duty on employers to ensure that 16 and 17-year-olds are in education and training, their attitude to those young people might be different if the education and training is directly relevant to the employment or if it is not. We want to be absolutely clear about that.

The second issue, which the NUT and other bodies such as the Association of Colleges raise, is whether it is sensible to restrict the qualifications to those that are recognised by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority. That is touched on, in part, by amendments Nos. 12, 13 and 32, which seek to impart greater flexibility to the Bill and which we therefore also support. On that point, the NUT states that there is a concern that the Bill

“will mean that ‘relevant’ training and education has to always result in a nationally recognised qualification. If this means that locally developed courses are therefore ineligible under the legislation the opportunities for young people and the benefits to local employers may be limited.”

The Association of Colleges says something similar in its briefing to the Committee, which was issued in January. It stated:

“We have some concerns over the position of young people with learning difficulties which prevent them from taking an external qualification.”

Accepting that we do not want those obligations to be placed on young people in the first place—because we think that being in full-time employment is important enough in itself and, in part, useful to education and skills—we want to hear from the Minister about the degree of flexibility in relation to the relevance of qualifications. Is he prepared to extend the same flexibility that appears to exist for young people who are purely in education and training in educational settings to those people who are in work-based settings in relation to whether or not the qualifications that they achieve must be QCA approved?

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