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Counter-Terrorism Bill
9:00 am
Elfyn Llwyd (Parliamentary Leader; Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, Plaid Cymru)
Having read the clause, we see that a person would have a defence if it were proved that he had a reasonable excuse for his action. However, proposed new section 58A will criminalise the collection, making or possession of a record of information that is likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism. It goes further, using “eliciting”, which means that a person will commit an offence if they try to obtain information and make no record of it. Liberty, for example, argues that that might already be covered under section 1 of the Criminal Attempts Act 1981, which criminalises acts that are more than merely preparatory to the commission of another offence. I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to that point in due course.
I would like to raise one other point. Going back to reasonable excuse, which is important, proposed new section 58A(2) says that if a person charged can prove a reasonable excuse then section 118 of the Terrorism Act 2000 applies. The use of that defence means that, if the defendant produces evidence sufficient to raise an issue, the duty is on the prosecution to prove beyond doubt that the issue exists. That appears to strengthen the defence by placing the burden on the prosecution. However, there is also a restriction to the defence of reasonable excuse—that it will not provide protection to those who act thoughtlessly or carelessly. Would a person who was duped into eliciting information by others—others with terrorist intent—be unlikely to have reasonable excuse? My fear is that that person could thereby be convicted, even if that person carelessly or thoughtlessly had no idea that information was being used with that malicious intent. Will the Minister respond to that point in due course?