Clause 84
Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [Lords]
9:15 am
Simon Hughes (Shadow Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs & Shadow Attorney General, Constitutional Affairs; North Southwark and Bermondsey, Liberal Democrat)
This is obviously a simple clause that says:
“This Part binds the Crown... But the procedure in Schedule 12 may not be used...to recover debts due from the Crown...to take control of or sell goods of the Crown (including goods owned by the crown jointly or in common with another person), or...to enter premises occupied by the Crown.”
Will the Minister explain how wide is the definition of the Crown? The Palace of Westminster, for example, used to be protected from all sorts of legal interventions because of its special status. In some circumstances, the definition of the Crown could be extended to include agencies of the Crown. I can understand that it would be rather indelicate for the bailiffs to go into Buckingham palace; it would not look terribly good if somebody had not paid the electricity bill. However, there should be a procedure, which would need to be extremely tightly drawn, for people to get their money back.
Vera Baird (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Constitutional Affairs; Redcar, Labour)
I do not think that the measure is intended to deal with Buckingham palace. It refers to the Crown in the form of the Government. The Palace of Westminster can never conceivably have been part of the Crown. In fact, I see that the Crown does include the Palace of Westminster. That is extraordinary. It also includes agents of the Crown.
Simon Hughes (Shadow Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs & Shadow Attorney General, Constitutional Affairs; North Southwark and Bermondsey, Liberal Democrat)
My suspicions and fears are realised. We need to reflect on this point. The measure appears to be narrowly drawn. There are lots of Crown agencies; I do not know whether it applies, for example, to the Duchy of Cornwall, which owns estates over the road, including the Oval cricket ground, or to Crown property around Regent’s park, or to lots of other Crown lands. There will be cases of bills not having been paid that have no remedy. If the debtor is a Crown agency, how do people go about getting their money?
Vera Baird (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Constitutional Affairs; Redcar, Labour)
The provision does not mean that such cases have no remedy; it means that they do not have this remedy. They have every other remedy under common law of which I am aware. However, I shall not give the hon. Gentleman a comprehensive list at present.