Clause 41
Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill
5:00 pm
Alistair Burt (Shadow Minister (Communities and Local Government), Communities and Local Government; North East Bedfordshire, Conservative)
I am pleased to support the tenor of the amendments and to thank the hon. Gentleman for introducing them. Although we might be covering some old ground, I hope that they will encourage Committee members to reaffirm their commitment to the importance of choice in local government and to express again their concerns that a key manifestation of that choice in the present context would be to allow councils that so wished to propose and maintain an enhanced committee system.
The witnesses whom we heard expressed no doubt that that option would be broadly welcomed. Let me give some examples from their evidence. We had a debate that involved the three representatives of the Local Government Association. Jeremy Beecham was not keen to go back, so that is one vote against an enhanced committee system. When asked about his position on the options, Richard Kemp, the Liberal Democrat representative, said that
“it would be an option that I would support. I do not think that anyone wants to go back to the old committee system”—
the point made by the hon. Member for Hazel Grove—
“I do not think that anyone pines for that system, but an enhanced committee system, based on the experience that we have now, would be possible.”
So, that is one each. However, Simon Milton, representing the Conservatives on the LGA, said:
“I regretted the fact that councils were not given the option to have a committee system under the original Local Government Act. To be consistent, I would welcome that option, although I am not sure whether my council would go back to that system.”——[Official Report, Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Public Bill Committee, 30 January 2007; c. 20.]
That is two votes in favour of choice.
I will return to a familiar theme that the Minister must now hear echoing in his dreams. I do not know whether he caught that wonderful programme “Sleep Clinic” on the television last night that looked at the extraordinary contortions that people go through when their sleep is disturbed, what they hear and what they do not hear. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is hearing in his dreams, “choice, choice,” and at some stage tonight that he will share again that champagne moment that he gave to the Committee earlier when, as members of the Committee will recall, he spread open his arms and said, “I am a devolutionist, let them have the choice.” He said that in relation to a different part of the Bill, but, as the hon. Member for Hazel Grove said, all we are asking is that the Minister finds again in his soul that moment. He made that comment in relation to offering the choice of a committee system. He was not talking about forcing it upon anyone, not demanding that anyone has to have it, but simply giving people at local level their opportunity to choose a committee system for themselves.
Another voice from one of our witnesses was that of Gordon Keymer. The very name strikes a chord in all our hearts. Asked about the committee system and the problem of involvement, he said:
“What is happening too much at the moment in the executive system is that council meetings are dominated by two or three people and the rest are spectators. The figures speak for themselves—note the turnover of people who stay for only one term and leave because they are frustrated. The trouble is that we are trying to produce a whole lot of mechanisms to keep them happy by extending scrutiny and so on. If you look at it quite cold-bloodedly, all those things could be covered by active membership in the committee system. It is a great shame. People are not easily fooled.”
He said that when he goes down to watch his local council committees at work of an evening he thinks,
“Here are people who, from the very beginning, can involve themselves in local government, learn to speak and debate with officers and graduate to the council chamber and the full council meeting.”——[Official Report, Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Public Bill Committee, 30 January 2007; c. 41.]
That is what Gordon Keymer used to see on the committees on his council that he oversaw. That opportunity to learn and grow is not there now.