Phil Woolas (Minister of State (Local Government & Community Cohesion), Department for Communities and Local Government; Oldham East & Saddleworth, Labour)

Thank you, Mr. Benton. At the end of this morning’s sitting, I was referring to the timetable for consultation with the public and saying how the Government’s position under the Bill is that it is up to local councils to determine how they will ascertain the broad support from the public that is one of the criteria asked for in the invitation to bid.

Alistair Burt (Shadow Minister (Communities and Local Government), Communities and Local Government; North East Bedfordshire, Conservative)

The Minister has made much of the fact that some authorities may have been thinking about the process for up to two years, and thus have had plenty of time to consult the public and give a sense of broad-based consent and so on. What about the situation that is not uncommon in some authorities that have submitted bids? Their bids have been brought forward at a late stage because of a bid made by another authority.

A borough that is thinking of going unitary may have done a lot of work and spoken to people within its area, but one of the knock-on consequences of the Bedford borough bid, for example, put a question mark over what would happen to the rest of the area. That prompted a response from Mid Beds and South Bedfordshire district councils that they could not reasonably have been expected to plan or pay for by way of preparation until they knew what Bedford borough would do. What about the time for public consultation in districts that have been placed in such a position?

Phil Woolas (Minister of State (Local Government & Community Cohesion), Department for Communities and Local Government; Oldham East & Saddleworth, Labour)

For the benefit of the Committee, it may be worth noting that the bids or the proposals that have been made are all public documents. It is incumbent on us to put all the material on the website and publish it for the House.

The point of the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire was well made. An authority has to show that there is broad public support for its proposal. He asked whether there was enough time for an affected district or authority to respond and show that it has public support. The Government will judge such proposals across the whole of the affected area, not   only within the area that is proposed. It will be incumbent on the proposing authority, as well as the responding authority, to show the size of public support. That is a fair point because it reflects the top-down approach.

There is a balance between having a window of opportunity that is adequate for due consideration and a period that would be destabilising in the extreme for local authorities. I reassure the hon. Gentleman that public support for the proposal—both from the authority that is putting it in and the affected authorities—is a criterion that we shall use.

Patrick Hall (Bedford, Labour)

As for the pre-invitation to bid process or the period to which the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire alluded, Bedford borough asked its citizens panel. However, I do not regard that as constituting a sufficient measure of public interest, although it has demonstratedpublic support for the idea of a Bedford unitary. Surely the most important opportunity to go to town on demonstrating widespread public support from residents, businesses and voluntary organisations would occur after a bid has passed the initial hurdle, if indeed it does. I would expect councils to take such action in April, May and June, whether or not they were preparing beforehand, as the hon. Gentleman said. That is when the work needs to be done and when the real demonstration of public support will have to be obtained.

Phil Woolas (Minister of State (Local Government & Community Cohesion), Department for Communities and Local Government; Oldham East & Saddleworth, Labour)

To emphasise the criteria, I must explain that the period until 25 January past was, of course, the deadline for the submission of proposals. We intend that, by the end of March, those proposals will be subject to judgment against the criteria established. Then the wider interests will be consulted, including affected authorities. That period of consultation will include local elections in those areas.

Alistair Burt (Shadow Minister (Communities and Local Government), Communities and Local Government; North East Bedfordshire, Conservative)

We are at a difficult point, and I return to the difficulty of the time scale. The hon. Member for Bedford made his point well, but surely the period in which a bidding authority had to show some degree of public support was the period up to the submission of the bid. That is one of the criteria. My point is that some bidding authorities had very little time to put their bid together. They will have spent serious money on getting the bid together at a late stage, because it would have been prompted by a proposal by a neighbouring authority. That means that trying to gauge public consent or support will be practically impossible.

Councils have had to go on a wing and a prayer. They have spent money and put in their bids because they think that that is the best defence mechanism against the other proposals on the table. I do not think that the time scale has been adequate to demonstrate any serious public consultation, notwithstanding that the process will consider that from now on. If the Minister finds that there is no public support or backing, authorities will have spent money putting together a bid unnecessarily.

Phil Woolas (Minister of State (Local Government & Community Cohesion), Department for Communities and Local Government; Oldham East & Saddleworth, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman makes his point fairly, but the second period of consultation does not exclude the authorities from putting in their point of view, developing on proposals that might have been made or—

Alistair Burt (Shadow Minister (Communities and Local Government), Communities and Local Government; North East Bedfordshire, Conservative)

But it was a criterion in the first place.

Phil Woolas (Minister of State (Local Government & Community Cohesion), Department for Communities and Local Government; Oldham East & Saddleworth, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman says that it is possible that an authority might have got wind of a neighbouring authority’s bid and then had a short period in which to prepare its proposals. I acknowledge that point, but it would be a strong point only if that authority were then excluded from further consultation. For the record, it might be worth referring the Committee to paragraph 5.10 of the invitation to councils in England to bid. It says:

“At stage 2, the Government will consult widely with partners/stakeholders in the areas affected by the proposals. Partners/stakeholders will thus have an opportunity to make representations about proposals that potentially will affect them. For these purposes, partners/stakeholders include all local authorities, the wider public sector...business community, voluntary and community sector. It is intended that this consultation would be launched at the end of March with a 12-week consultation period.”

Those interested groups include the affected councils. He has pressed his point quite well, and I acknowledge that.

Alistair Burt (Shadow Minister (Communities and Local Government), Communities and Local Government; North East Bedfordshire, Conservative)

On a final point, if that wider consultation in March shows that there was in fact no public support for a proposal, what the council has done, in extremis, is to spend a lot of council tax payers’ money to put together an unnecessary bid. The criterion that the proposals should be

“supported by a broad cross section of partners and stakeholders”

could not have been tested in the time required. Provided that the Minister is prepared to concede that money may well have been wasted in the process because of the urgency of the timetable, I take his point.

Phil Woolas (Minister of State (Local Government & Community Cohesion), Department for Communities and Local Government; Oldham East & Saddleworth, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman is tempting me to say that devolution might mean spending money. I argue that inviting councils to put forward proposals for improving their local services and financial efficiency could be money well spent, but I am determined to remain neutral.

Patrick Hall (Bedford, Labour)

Let me point out that the complaint of the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire is that some councils might not have had time to spend enough money consulting a vast number of people, so they will have spent less.

Phil Woolas (Minister of State (Local Government & Community Cohesion), Department for Communities and Local Government; Oldham East & Saddleworth, Labour)

My hon. Friend’s logic is normally impeccable. I was going to say “always”, but he might put amendments down, and then I would be in a difficulty. I am not sure what the local paper in Bedford and Bedfordshire is called, although I am sure that I will find out at some point in the next 12 weeks. I will resist the temptation to rename the Bill, “The Local Government and Public Involvement in Health in Bedfordshire Bill”, but his point was well made.

Clause 4 is much narrower in scope than people reading a report of the debate might believe. It sets out the procedure that the Secretary of State is to followon receipt of a proposal, and I commend it to the Committee.

Philip Dunne (Ludlow, Conservative)

I apologise to you, Mr. Benton, and to the Committee because this is the first sitting that I have attended—I had other commitments to fulfil.

I wish to ask the Minister a couple of questions for clarification, particularly on clause 4(2)(b), and to press him a little further on the issue of the extent of public consultation. Authorities that cover an area in which a proposal was made before 25 January, and which anticipated for some months in advance of the publication of the White Paper that such a proposal might be forthcoming, have had an opportunity to organise widespread public consultation. That is true in the case of Shropshire, as the Minister knows well, where three out of five districts have done so. The consultations took the form of a public ballot, which was well responded to, with a turnout of more than41 per cent. More than 60,000 people took the trouble to respond to a postal ballot. That response will, I hope, be taken into due consideration by the Minister.

The thrust of my question is that clause 4(2) states that

“the Secretary of State must consult the following about the proposal...

(b) any other person he believes to have an interest.”

Will the Minister confirm that the definition contained in clause 4(2)(b) would mean that the Secretary of State will be obliged to take into due consideration the results of a public ballot?

Phil Woolas (Minister of State (Local Government & Community Cohesion), Department for Communities and Local Government; Oldham East & Saddleworth, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman makes a point about the extent of consultation. Clause 4(2)(b) says that “any other person” the Secretary of State believes to have an interest must be consulted. Government policy is that it is up to councils to determine how they consult on, or show a broad range of support for, a proposal. Clearly, members of the public are included within the definition of clause 4(2)(b). The Secretary of State would then have to balance the various competing claims, and it would be up to the councils affected to demonstrate what public support for proposals there was. As is laid out in the invitation, that criterion is to be given due regard in the consideration.

Philip Dunne (Ludlow, Conservative)

May I take it from that helpful response that the Minister will not only rely on partners and stakeholders that have a particular understanding within local authorities, but other persons, such as members of the public and the electorate that the authorities are there to serve?

Phil Woolas (Minister of State (Local Government & Community Cohesion), Department for Communities and Local Government; Oldham East & Saddleworth, Labour)

That is a fair point. One has to judge on the criteria. Given those, public support will be an important part of the considerations.