Schedule 1
Legal Services Bill [Lords]
4:15 pm
John Mann (PPS (Rt Hon Richard Caborn, Minister of State), Department for Culture, Media & Sport; Bassetlaw, Labour)
Well, let me give the hon. Gentleman some facts. Let me tell him about the 33,619 people who pursued a case for miners’ compensation but died while their claim was ongoing. Under the law of averages, some would have, but that number says to me that there is a whole group of solicitors out there who are incompetent at doing their job on behalf of the people whom they purport to represent. Furthermore, in that case, they are over-generously paid for doing so. Those 33,619 died while their claims were ongoing. That is why there is a big issue.
The majority of lawyers are decent people doing a decent job. What is unique about the legal profession is not that it includes a minority of bad solicitors, although that is the case, or that there is a slightly larger minority of incompetent or semi-competent ones, although that is also true, but that if it is challenged, it can and does use the law to threaten. Thousands of my constituents get threatening letters, and that is just in my area. Why is that? It is because of the perception among lawyers that they have access to justice and others have not, and that they know the system and others do not. Others have to pay for someone to represent them, but lawyers can do it themselves because they have access to the courts. That is what is unique and why the system of regulation needs to be robust.
I hear talk about the separation of powers between the state and the judiciary. I would be happy to vote for that, and I have done. I would get rid of the House of Lords. If it cannot be got rid of, I would make it an entirely elected Chamber. We might then have some separation. What is particularly unique is the ability to use the House of Lords—there because of a professional position—to determine legislation. I accept that its rules of advocacy are significantly less weak than those for the House of Commons, but with regard to fundamental democracy there is too much access to not only the legal system, but the parliamentary system. That is why I have been referring so robustly to the voice of the consumer. There are 60 million people in this country, yet we categorise their view into that of the Consumers Association or the National Consumer Council. The people of Britain have a right to some basic regulation.
I would not criticise the Minister. I understand the pressures that she is up against when the legal profession is so adamant at protecting its vested interest at all stages from the judiciary to the lowest level. However, if I have a criticism of the Government, it is that they could be more robust and say, “No, that is not acceptable.” I cite Government amendment No. 33 and wish to highlight something to which no reference has yet been made. Perhaps someone would volunteer me to be a member of the Legal Services Board. I am willing to listen to all arguments. I am a strong supporter of decent lawyers, barristers and judges. Indeed, I do everything that I can to highlight the good and contrast them with the useless or the bad.
However, I shall not get through the necessary criteria because a member needs to have knowledge of
“the provision of legal services”.
I do not know whether I or the majority of my constituents can be so classified. A member must have knowledge of
“legal education and legal training...consumer affairs”.
I suppose that I could profess to having knowledge of consumer affairs. Members must know about
“civil or criminal proceedings and the working of the courts”.
By the way, I am referring to surveyed perception. I have not surveyed my constituents about their view of the judiciary, as I have a good idea of what they might come up with. However, in respect of legal services, they would perceive that lawyers are people to whom they have to go if they get into trouble and they want to be defended. If a family member is arrested, their perception of the legal service is that they must get a lawyer to defend that person. That view is quantified by the surveys that I have conducted.
I could carry on, but members of the Committee can read the Bill. They do not need me to take them through it clause by clause. In essence, the board as proposed by the Government and backed by Opposition parties will be packed to the rafters by members of the legal profession. It strikes me that a better membership would be if the board were made up of more than 50 per cent. of people who were not legal professionals. The argument about who appoints the members and so on might then be more tenable. If the board were made up entirely of people who were independent of the legal profession, such points might have more credibility.