Mark Harper (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Forest of Dean, Conservative)

I have two points. The first we touched on briefly in the last debate and it focuses on the people who are going to be transferred to CMEC. Many of the problems that have been experienced by parents and families in the maintenance process have not been caused by Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations. In some ways, the staff of the agency are as much victims of the process. It came up during the evidence-taking session with the Minister and the chief executive of the agency that the morale in the agency was quite high and the staff were looking forward to this process taking place. It was worth getting that on the record.

I have one specific question for the Minister, in light of our debate on clause 8. He was keen not to fetter or limit the scope and flexibility of the commission, which is why clause 13(3)(a) amends the TUPE regulations to change the trade union recognition procedures that are standard in TUPE recognition, and removes the limitation that is normally there. That seems to fetter the role of the commission slightly and make it more difficult for it to take a different position in relation to trade union recognition. It would be helpful if the Minister could explain the logic behind that as TUPE regulations do not normally require that to be the case.

Paul Rowen (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Rochdale, Liberal Democrat)

I agree that the clause is important. I was grateful to the Minister for agreeing this morning that the results of staff survey would be placed in the Library. I understand why subsections (2) and (3) are included. They modify the TUPE regulations so that existing trade unions who represent CSA employees can continue to do so. I am sure that most Members agree that that is a particularly important process in that it gives certainty to those employees that they will continue to get the same recognition.

I want to ask the Minister about subsection (5) and the circumstances in which he envisages an order-making power to exclude some people from transferring under the TUPE terms being used. I note that it is a negative resolution, so there is little opportunity for debate unless it is prayed against. Who does the Minister think would be covered by this subsection? Clearly, if it is widely exercised, it would cause concern to current employees of the CSA. Perhaps the Minister can tell us which employees could be affected by this subsection and why it is subject to a negative resolution.

James Plaskitt (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Work and Pensions; Warwick & Leamington, Labour)

As hon. Members know, we intend to transfer the child support functions, which are currently the responsibility of the Secretary of State, to the commission in 2008, at which point the CSA will cease to exist and the commission will be made responsible for delivering child maintenance services.

Clause 13 will ensure that, when those functions are transferred, all the people employed by the CSA will also transfer to the commission. In other words, it will ensure that, from day one, the commission will have the people that it needs to fulfil its responsibilities. There are exceptions, as the hon. Member for Rochdale said, and there are good reasons for them. We therefore expect to use clause 13(5) to exclude from the transfer those who are working at the CSA as consultants or working there under contract for a private sector organisation at the time of transfer.

The people employed by the CSA are its biggest asset. They will be critical to the development of the modern service that needs to be put in place. Our staff will provide the commission with a strong base on which to build. At this point, I should like to pay tribute to the agency’s staff. Over the past few months, my fellow Ministers in the Department and I have held question and answer discussion sessions at various CSA offices throughout the country, because we wanted the opportunity to discuss with staff this substantial change. Those meetings were widely welcomed by the staff involved, who, quite understandably, had a series of questions and some concerns about the big change that is happening in their organisation.

What came out of those meetings——and continues to come out of them as we hold them——was the huge commitment of the CSA staff, not only to their current task, to which their commitment is beyond any question, but to making CMEC work. After all, they want to be part of a successful child maintenance operation and they are prepared to give their all to help us to achieve that. Many of them have worked for the agency for a long time and have been in the difficult spot of working with a flawed design, which has been a tough task.

I can report that the staff are pleased with the introduction of the operational improvement plan. They have seen the tangible benefit of that additional investment. They see it as essential preparation of the ground, which we are going through with their help, for a smooth transition to CMEC. We need to do our best to look after the staff, who have worked extraordinarily hard and with great commitment to do their best with the CSA. They want to help us to deliver the marked improvement that CMEC will represent.

Andrew Selous (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; South West Bedfordshire, Conservative)

I want to put on record the official Opposition’s gratitude to the staff of the CSA. We all recognise that they share our frustration that child maintenance has not been conducted as successfully as they would have liked. I have met CSA staff who have travelled to my constituency office to deal with individual cases. They have been unfailingly courteous and have shared my frustration at not being able to resolve some of the cases on which we have worked together. I therefore echo the Minister’s remarks.

James Plaskitt (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department for Work and Pensions; Warwick & Leamington, Labour)

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments, as I am sure will staff throughout the agency.

Clause 13 will provide much-needed assurance to staff involved in the transfer. It will ensure that the protection offered by TUPE applies to the transfer, which will provide a clear guarantee to staff that the transfer will not affect their employment or their terms and conditions. The Committee will see that we have made separate provision to protect pensions in subsection (4).

I was asked why we are amending the trade union paragraphs. TUPE regulation 6 provides for a group of employees transferring under TUPE to retain access to their existing trade unions. However, because of the way in which the regulation is worded, it could be interpreted not to apply to the transfer of people to the commission. Clause 13(3) therefore includes a specific  provision to ensure that the commission must recognise independent trade unions currently recognised by the Secretary of State.

The clause ensures that we are entirely in line with the Cabinet Office statement of practice on such transfers, which sets out clear guidelines on the treatment of staff and which should be followed whenever there is organisational change within the public sector. That is unequivocal about the fact that staff involved in transfers of functions should be treated fairly and consistently and their rights should be respected. Specifically, it states that departments must

“ensure that legislation effecting transfers of functions between public sector bodies makes provision for staff to transfer and on a basis that follows the principles of TUPE.”

That is exactly what this clause does. A number of provisions in the Bill should help to allay any concerns that our staff might have. The Bill provides that people will retain their terms and conditions on transfer, that they will continue to have access to the principal civil service pensions scheme and, as I have been saying, that their existing trade unions will be recognised by the commission.

I know that there are concerns about whether terms and conditions can be changed immediately after transfer. Let me reassure CSA staff now that the new employer cannot lawfully impose different terms and conditions without the agreement of the individual employee or trade union, and even then can do so only if the new terms and conditions are more favourable to the employee.

As an additional measure, we will enable staff who move to the commission to have access to Department for Work and Pensions vacancies for at least three years. We are also in discussion with the Cabinet Office to secure approval for people working in the commission to apply for inter-departmental vacancies advertised on the civil service recruitment gateway website.

Clause 13 is critical both for the success of the commission and for the reassurance of the people currently employed by CSA.