Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I beg to move amendmentNo. 165, in clause 21, page 17, line 9, leave out from ‘beginning’ to end of line 11 and insert

‘from the date of claim, and

(b) ending with

(i) determination of eligibility for Employment and Support Allowance, or

(ii) such day as may be prescribed up to a maximum of 91 days from the date of claim,

whichever is the sooner.’.

I shall be brief, because I know that we are trying to make some progress, as we just have. I think that we have covered more clauses in two minutes than in the previous two hours. It was an impressive piece of work.

The amendment is intended to probe the Government’s thinking on the nature and timing of the assessment phase for the employment and support allowance. It sets out that that phase should end either on the date on which eligibility for benefit is determined or after 13 weeks. Ministers have made clear that the assessment phase should last 13 weeks. If entitlement for benefit is determined before the 13-week phase is over, the entitlement should start on that date so a person does not have to wait two or three weeks before receiving the full benefit. That is a relatively simple but important point, not least to those outside the House following our proceedings. I would be grateful if the Under-Secretary would clarify the assessment phase and make it clear that it will end after 13 weeks or on the date on which a determination of benefit is made if, as we all hope, it happens more quickly.

Anne McGuire (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Disabled People), Department for Work and Pensions; Stirling, Labour)

The amendment, if I understand it correctly, would have two main impacts. It would set the commencement of the assessment phase at the point at which an individual makes a claim and the end of that phase and the movement to the main phase at the point at which the assessment process is complete, or 91 days after the claim was made if the assessment is not finished. I believe that that is the correct understanding.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

That is correct.

Anne McGuire (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Disabled People), Department for Work and Pensions; Stirling, Labour)

Right. With the greatest of respect, to determine the commencement of the assessment phase as the date of the claim would not be sensible. Many customers seek to backdate their claims due to a delay in contacting Jobcentre Plus that is no fault of their own. Others seek to advance their claim dates on the basis that their employer notified them of termination of contract some days down the line. We propose, through regulations, to set the assessment phase of the ESA as a 13-week period from the first day of entitlement. We have based that length on the evidence from the pathways pilots, which showed that 13 weeks is a realistic target for assessing the majority of customers. We will aim to get the assessment for every individual complete within the 13 weeks, but there might be instances where that is not possible, perhaps because of a delay in the collection of evidence or because a customer is unable to attend a medical examination. Earlier we considered examples such as when a medical examination has to be rescheduled because of illness or the one given, if I remember rightly, by the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) of all 246 Atos doctors being on strike on a given day. I know that was only an indicator, and that he used a somewhat flippant example.

We want to ensure that customers do not lose out if the assessment phase has to be extended for reasons such as I have described. Our proposals will also ensure that benefit is not paid to those who are not entitled to it, which would be a risk if everyone were automatically moved on to main phase even if their assessment was not complete. I hope that explanation will be accepted.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

The burden of the point on which I sought clarification was fairly simple. If the assessment of entitlement to the benefit—in other words, the decision that someone is entitled to ESA—is made less than 13 weeks from the date at which entitlement starts, does the assessment phase end at that point?

Anne McGuire (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Disabled People), Department for Work and Pensions; Stirling, Labour)

My hon. Friend the Minister for Employment and Welfare Reform clarified this in earlier debates. The first phase is 13 weeks and then the customer moves on to the next phase, depending on what happens as a result of the processes during that phase. The entitlement will not start until the end of the 13 weeks. I hope that clarifies the point for the hon. Gentleman for the second time. I have nearly reached the point of asking him to withdraw the amendment.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I thought I would intervene, rather than come back with another speech for the Committee’s benefit. If the assessment phase lasts13 weeks and someone’s decisions are taken before that  period ends, is it correct that they do not start to receive the full rate of benefit until the end of the assessment phase?

Anne McGuire (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Disabled People), Department for Work and Pensions; Stirling, Labour)

That is correct. There might be an opposite position. For example, for reasons similar to those I have described, someone might not get out of the assessment phase until 15 weeks have passed, and if they qualify for the support allowance, it is backdated to 13 weeks. So, 13 weeks is the threshold in respect of either having entitlement or backdating. Principally on the point of fairness, we could not have a situation where people could, for various reasons, be out of the assessment phase and move into the new benefit at the end of 10 weeks while others might not get there until 15 weeks. We anticipate that 13 weeks will be our cut-off point. In that context, I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the amendment.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I beg to move amendmentNo. 162, in clause 21, page 17, line 13, after ‘prescribed’, insert

‘, and such amounts as may be prescribed’.

I suspect that it will just be me and the Under-Secretary discussing this for a little while, but I shall try to keep the exchanges relatively brief. The amendment seeks to probe the Government’s intentions on the payments that will be made to people during the assessment phase of the ESA.

There is particular concern about payments made to younger claimants during the assessment phase. For example, there are younger age rates of jobseeker’s allowance and there have been discussions about lower rates being payable for younger claimants during the assessment phase. Will the Under-Secretary confirm that the younger age rates will be payable during the assessment phase?

There is a further concern about the availability of the disability premium. Part of the burden of this legislation is to remove the disability premium. If it is no longer payable during the assessment phase, will the Under-Secretary explain how someone aged 16 or 17 will be identified as qualifying for the higher rate of personal allowance? I shall talk a little longer to allow the Minister to think about that.

It is clear that the additional components will increase someone’s income above the basic allowance and will be made earlier. Despite that, during the first 13 weeks some people may experience a drop in income. The Green Paper on welfare reform states that more than half of new claimants for incapacity-related benefits are out of work immediately before their claim and for some groups the level of payments may be above the basic allowance. Can the Minister confirm that there will be circumstances when some people, such as those receiving statutory sick pay and those with a disability premium in previous benefits, will experience a drop in income for the 13 weeks of the assessment phase because they were on previous benefits and went on to the assessment phase, which is payable at jobseeker’s allowance rate? They may qualify  for employment support allowance, at which point their benefit would rise to the higher level. Have the Government given any thought to how in such circumstances they will avoid fluctuations in income that might otherwise apply to vulnerable people?

Anne McGuire (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Disabled People), Department for Work and Pensions; Stirling, Labour)

I think I understand what the hon. Gentleman is getting at. His point allows me to confirm that we will pay a younger-age rate during the assessment phase, but we have responded to consultations arising from the Green Paper that allowed us to indicate that we would not differentiate on grounds of age during the main phase.

We are looking at a whole new system that will be more responsive more quickly to people than the current system. The 13-week threshold will mean that if people meet the criteria, they will move on to a higher level of benefit than they would currently in terms of the time scale. Obviously, we have not set the rates—I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was trying to lever out an answer on that—but we have responded to the consultations on the youth rate arising from the Green Paper. I hope that he accepts my clarification and that he will withdraw his amendment.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I am grateful for that clarification, but the Minister has not addressed my second point. People—not necessarily young people, but perhaps adults who will be eligible for the full rate of JSA—may previously have been on other benefits before they made an application for employment support allowance. Those other benefits would be higher than the rate that the Government propose to pay during the assessment phase. Those people may be on a higher rate to start with—one could list the range of circumstances in which that would be possible—but go on to a lower rate during the assessment phase, and when they qualify after the 13-week period of employment support allowance go on to a higher rate. There would be a U-shaped curve or fluctuation in the level of benefit received. Have the Government given any thought to how they might deal with people in such circumstances to ensure that the fluctuation in income that might take place does not cause unnecessary damage to vulnerable individuals?

Anne McGuire (Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Disabled People), Department for Work and Pensions; Stirling, Labour)

Our aim is to get people back into work as soon as possible. Throughout the Bill’s progress, we have had good discussions about when there can be occupational health interventions for people who have long-term sicknesses, and about all the things that will keep people at work.

We are not going to make assumptions about where somebody who moves off statutory sick pay to the first phase of ESA will end up after the process of assessment. As we have not set the rate, I am not prepared even to start a discussion on the figures. However, moving from one benefit to another is a decision that must be considered by the individual. I go back to my earlier point: we are looking at a tightly programmed assessment phase, so an individual will still be better off than under the current system over a 52-week period.

I hope that I have answered the hon. Gentleman’s questions. I am not sure that I have dealt with the exact amounts, and all the rest of it, to his satisfaction. However, if somebody moves off SSP on to the first phase of ESA, we have made it clear that that will be at the jobseeker’s allowance rate. That is the decision that people have to make.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

The Under-Secretary has clarified the point. I am not sure whether I am entirely satisfied with her answer, but the issue can be debated further. The other place may well wish to take it up; I shall not be the Liberal Democrat spokesman on that occasion. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.