Clause 12
Welfare Reform Bill
1:30 pm

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I beg to move amendment No. 194, in page 10, line 41, after ‘regulations’, insert—

‘(aa) prescribing circumstances in which such a person is not subject to a requirement to undertake work-related activity in accordance with regulations;’.

With this amendment I seek to probe the Government’s intentions on directions to carry out work-related activity. It would provide that regulations could be made to prescribe circumstances in which such a person as described in the clause is not subject to a requirement to undertake such activity. The intention is to elicit more detail from the Minister on the Government’s thinking about the circumstances in which members of the work-related activity group, if one could call them that, rather than of the support group, might not be required to undertake such activity. An individual could be affected by a range of circumstances to do with their impairment, disability or health condition. That concern might particularly apply to those with fluctuating conditions. It might well be possible for such people to engage in work-related activity when their condition is less severe, but as it fluctuates there may be periods when that is not possible. Unless exceptions are described so that the conditionality on work-related activity would not apply, someone in such circumstances could be caught out by the conditionality regime. I am keen to hear more from the Minister about how those issues would apply to such cases.

It is also worth saying that the clause and the Bill seek to make obligatory taking part in work-related activity, as well as attending a work-related interview or a work-focused health-related assessment—matters of responsibility subject to reductions in benefit if not complied with. When we come to later amendments, we will have a wider debate on what work-related activity is and is not; that is not the subject of this amendment.

Owing to their disability, impairment or health condition, there may well be people for whom support or adjustments may be needed, to enable them to undertake the work-related activity required of them. If such support or adjustments cannot be provided for whatever reason, it may be inappropriate to require that person to carry out work-related activity. I hope that the Minister will agree and that the Government do not intend to sanction someone’s benefit in such cases. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

I shall speak briefly, Mr. Amess. If I may say so, this probing amendment is well conceived. We need to know something about this issue. The Government are undertaking a fairly major step, although in pathways pilots they have done a little to require work-related activity over and above the relatively easily described and scoped work-related interview. A whole variety of circumstances in which that might not be possible might apply.

I suppose that unless we assume a grave deficiency in the local or national labour market—we shall not go into that wider issue this afternoon—it would normally be self-evident that somebody with limited capacity for work who is not in work although there is work to be had would need to move towards some work-related activity. That is not objectionable in principle.

In our debate on the last clause, the Minister flagged up the fact that we are trying to emphasise that there is an approach of mutuality and partnership so that officialdom works with the claimant to try to get them through. All the surveys of disabled people show that that is what many of them would like to do if they had the support. We need to scope what they can do and what will get them closer to working. At this stage, at any rate, nobody wishes to prescribe that there should be a penalty for not working. I certainly do not, but there is clearly a need to prepare for work.

The explanatory notes, which we sometimes criticise, are quite helpful on this issue. They discuss work tasters, programmes to manage health and work, job search assistance and programmes to assist in stabilising a person’s life. The latter programme may be a little less clear than the others but it is fairly clear, even from those short words, roughly what the Minister is driving at. No doubt he will wish to respond to the amendment.

In conclusion, all I need say in support of the amendment is that we clearly need to know more about what is intended and to have in mind at all times the possible constraints on the ability to carry that out—in particular when those constraints are not in the claimant’s control. Take work tasters, which are analogous to people going on work experience from their school or college. There may be health and safety considerations.

Arguably, those considerations could be more intense if a person has been out of the labour market because of some illness or disability and then wishes to go and try something out, rather than take part in a settled arrangement in which they are in a contract of employment, having succeeded in getting work. Clearly, it is important that the matter of constraints is addressed, and that there is such a reasonable opportunity.

The Minister may wish to say something about the fact that, theoretically, it may be necessary to provide access to work arrangements in order for a work-related activity to take place, let alone the work itself.

The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey has reinforced my inquiry on that matter. The whole import of the clause is that people will not have an easy transition from being limited in capacity to work and out of work to getting into work. We all want to bridge that gap, but we must do so in a reasonable way. Above all, we do not have to attach blame to the individual who, for reasons that may be beyond their control, is unable to make the transition. If there is a constraint, it needs to be met by a waiver or appropriate action. Therefore, we ask the Minister to explain what he has in mind and urge him not to be too literal-minded. We want some indication of how such a delicate gap is to be bridged, particularly at the point where there is an implied threat of sanctions, which is an innovation.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

I shall try to make my response relatively brief, on the basis that, in spirit, this is a probing amendment.

On numerous occasions we have talked about the entitlement to a support group being on the basis of a revised personal capability assessment of 15 points, matching one of 46 descriptors. I shall go on to some of the specifics.

This is another example of a speech excellently drafted by others, which my noble Friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath will have an opportunity to rehearse for the first time when a Lords Committee considers the Bill. That may be the best thing to do with some of our prepared speeches, to enable me to respond to the specific points that have been raised.

On sanctions and how we will roll out work-focused interviews, I am trying to take some of the lessons from work-focused interviews and the relationship between the personal adviser and the customer, and the relationship between personal adviser, customer and sanctions regime. Many hon. Members will be aware that pilot schemes are under way in seven parts of the UK, exploring the relationship between conditionality and the sanctions regime among existing incapacity benefit customers. We will learn of the best experiences from that process before bringing that knowledge forward into the draft regulations and guidance on how we implement work-related activity.

I do not wish to stray on to discussions that we have had on other amendments, so I shall try to keep my  comments narrow. The hon. Member for Daventry referred to the explanatory notes. The draft regulations state, very specifically:

“Claimants cannot be forced to undertake a particular activity.”

That means that we will not take the power to force a customer to undertake a specific action. However, the customer should undertake activity that takes them closer to the labour market over an agreed period, between work-focused interviews. Without going back to the debate over clause 11(2) to (6), in normal circumstances interviews would be expected to take place in a cycle of once in every four weeks. Inside that cycle, a customer would be expected to undertake some work-related activity that takes them closer to the labour market in that period.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

I am grateful that the Minister is helping to advance our knowledge of this matter. Can he confirm that the work-related activity to which he referred, even if it is not specified that “thou shalt do x or y”, would nevertheless have to be agreed as part of the action plan? There would have to be an understanding by Jobcentre Plus or the contractor that an activity was regarded as appropriate. We will come to that when we debate a later clause. However, it is not an unconditional licence to do something just because the claimant would like to do it.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

We will discuss action plans when we consider the next clause, so I shall not go into great detail. I think that there is some confusion about the nature of the plans, which is entirely understandable. When we come to the next clause, some clarification can be provided on the interaction between work-focused interviews, sanctions, work-related activity, work-focused health-related assessment and action plans. I can reassure Opposition Members, as well as my hon. Friends, about the relationships between those elements.

As hon. Members have said, the explanatory notes provide a list of activities that would be considered work-related. It is not an exhaustive list. The following broad headings are given in the paperwork: work tasters; managing health and work; improving employability; job search assistance—not compelling a job search, but providing assistance—and, importantly, stabilising life. Under those headings there are additional, specific examples of work-related activity. As a general understanding, the tone of the draft regulations is that a work-related activity would take the customer closer to the labour market. That would be the saloon bar description.

I can reassure the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey about the specifics of protections. I accept that his is a probing amendment. Perhaps, Mr. Amess, you will allow me to give a general reassurance on this occasion, so that when we move to other clauses, hon. Members will accept that it has been given.

As to protecting customers, clause 11 identifies sanctions or safeguards that also feature on page 6 of the draft regulations. Broadly speaking, such safeguards would apply in relation to what we have described as “good cause”, including work-focused  interviews and so on. Such matters are dealt with in the draft regulations and clause 12. I hope that that reassures Opposition Members. In addition, there will be a right of appeal, as with all financial sanctions.

With that broad reassurance on a number of matters relating to a variety of amendments to the clause, I hope that I have encouraged the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey to withdraw his probing amendment. I also hope that other Opposition Members who have tabled amendments will be reassured by my comments as we discuss future amendments.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I am, broadly speaking, reassured, although I reserve the right to raise similar issues in relation to future clauses. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I beg to move amendmentNo. 203, in clause 12, page 11, line 18, at end insert—

‘(j) for notifying a person not subject to a requirement to undertake work-related activity of opportunities to participate in work-related activity on a voluntary basis.’.

The purpose of the amendment is to elicit a bit more information from the Minister. I would like to probe the Government’s thinking in relation to the provision of information about work-related activity to people who are not required under clause 12 to undertake such activity. This is a similar point to that which was made during previous sittings about the support group, although I suggest that this amendment is free of some of the more contentious items that caused the debate in the previous sitting.

The amendment seeks merely to provide a power to make regulations to ensure that people who are not required to undertake work-related activity, which in this case means members of the support group, are none the less provided with information about what is available. I should like to hear a bit more in the Minister’s response about what proposals the Government have in mind to ensure that that happens. It may apply not only to work-related activity but to work-focused interviews and work-focused health-related assessments, and the assistance that is generally available under the pathways to work scheme, for example. How, if at all, do the Government intend to ensure that people who are not required to take part in such activities are no less informed about the opportunities that may be available to them? I assume that there is an answer to that question. To take on board the point that the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Kali Mountford) made in our previous sitting, it should be done in a non-threatening way that does not seek to create any feelings of obligation, but that—importantly—provides information to people so that they are aware of the opportunities and of the range of entitlements available through pathways to work, which could help them get closer to the labour market if they so wished.

I shall not dwell on what is a straightforward amendment. The point that I am making is clear. I hope that the Minister can reassure me that the Government have clear plans and proposals to ensure the undertaking of such a function.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

It is proper that we raise these issues and that the Minister should respond to them. I think that he will now be aware of the interest—on the Opposition Benches and all Benches—in the opportunities for members of the support group, as much as for those who are on the employment and support allowance and who are under obligations. I realise that, in a sense, anyone who is involved in the support group in any work-related activity that they do is ipso facto a member of the voluntary sector. That sector has not so far featured as much as it might have done in our discussions. It may well provide a useful route into work. Referring to our earlier debate, what we discussed could be seen as an example of work-related activity. That would apply equally to those who are subject to an obligation and those who are not.

We all understand that people do not go automatically in one stage from a situation of restriction and limited capacity all the way through to work, but the transition should be made as easy as possible for everyone, and in particular for the various classes available in the ESA. There is an interesting logical point on which I shall briefly dwell. If people are subject to a legal obligation to engage in activities, can they be said in that sense to be in the voluntary sector at all, even if they are working in the voluntary sector as part of the work taster? That is perhaps for the philosophers and not for the Committee today, however.

We want things to be as inclusive and practical as possible. It would be unwise for me to expand further on the necessary support, but above all we want Ministers to remember the point and respond to it.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

I hope that I can reassure hon. Members about the Government’s intentions, and encourage the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey to withdraw his amendment. I shall start with an admission. I may inadvertently have misled the Committee in relation to what would be work-related activity in draft regulations. As you are aware, Mr. Amess, that was contained in the Green Paper, and I was surprised that you did not invite me to be called to order, as you have on at least one previous occasion. I am surprised that others did not intervene, but I hope that I have clarified the position.

With that admission of error, I shall try to proceed on steadier footing in relation to the amendment. The hon. Gentleman has raised an important issue, which was amplified by the comments and reflections of the hon. Member for Daventry. On a voluntary basis, and where appropriate—we have discussed previously the appropriateness of the state allowing matters—someone in the support group should have access to work-focused interviews and the support available to other customers. That approach is exemplified by pathways, in which many in the exempt category volunteer for the available support. That will therefore be retained.

The hon. Member for Daventry is absolutely right about voluntary work being the appropriate route for some or many ESA customers wanting to get closer to the labour market, and therefore it will be deemed to be  work-related activity. I, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and many others know from constituency experience that a great number of voluntary organisations provide a fantastic level of support to people coming off inactive benefits in order to get them closer to the labour market. The experience in pathways in many cases has been that voluntary organisations have taken inspirational steps to involve those who have been out of the labour market for a very long time. We expect that to continue and will discuss with voluntary sector organisations, charities and many others details such as the capacity in the voluntary sector to support a substantial number of new volunteers.

On the specific requirement to provide information, the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey will be relieved to have it confirmed that the questionnaire accompanying invitations to tender for provider-led pathways to work provision asked providers to detail how they would ensure consistent delivery to mandatory and voluntary customers. Their bids will be assessed on their replies to that and other questions. I hope that that reassures him. It is a key part of the invitation to tender and unless providers are able to provide that analysis, they would not be able to offer the kind of contracts that we are looking for.

I do not think that it would be appropriate to put information provision in the Bill.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I do not know whether Minister intends to cover this point, but he has provided some reassurance on the contracts in the provider-led areas. However, my understanding is that they will cover60 per cent. of the country only, so 40 per cent. will be Jobcentre Plus-led pathways to work areas. How does he intend to ensure that a requirement similar to that stipulated in the contract of provider-led areas is carried out equally well in the Jobcentre Plus-led areas?

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman raises a reasonable point. That requirement operates already in the Jobcentre Plus-led pathways, which cover 40 per cent. of the country. As I said earlier, many of those in the exempt categories under the current and outdated personal capability assessment process nevertheless say, “I wish to volunteer.” I am sure that that can be improved further as part of the continuing improvement in communication, which we talked about earlier, but I am certain that that communication exists and, with the existing pathways process, is one of the avenues by which current exempt customers on IB can volunteer. I am not saying, on behalf of the Government, that we cannot make further improvements and we shall continue to seek ways in which to do so. With that, I encourage and implore the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his amendment.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

Duly implored, I add only, before responding to the Minister’s imploring, that he might find that Members of Parliament, in dealing with constituents on such matters, are interested in being engaged in the process of ensuring improved and direct communication. With that comment, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 238, in clause 12, page 11, line 18, at end add—

‘(j) prescribing the support which is to be provided to a person in order to help him to undertake work-related activity.’.

David Amess (Southend West, Conservative)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 239, in clause 12, page 11, line 20, leave out ‘is’ and insert ‘may be’.

No. 240, in clause 12, page 11, line 22, at end insert

‘or such other appropriate action as the Secretary of State may by regulation prescribe.’.

No. 241, in clause 12, page 11, line 27, at end insert—

‘(d) what other action may be taken to encourage the claimant back into work.’.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

The amendments do not make the same point, but complement each other and help to probe the Government’s views on the regulations that will enact these rather sensitive provisions. AmendmentNo. 238 is perhaps the most straightforward because it suggests simply that the regulations should prescribe

“the support which is to be provided to a person in order to help him to undertake work-related activity”.

I am conscious that this point might be turning into a King Charles’s head. Every time I get up to speak, I say that there will need to be support. If I flag in my task, I suspect my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Surrey (Mr. Hunt) or, indeed, the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey would get up to make my point for me. We need to keep saying again and again: it is not reasonable for people to go without support from one state to another. They need the appropriate support to get there.

The amendment says no more than that, but perhaps the Minister could reflect on one or two things. First, when I revisited the wording of the amendment, an analogy came to my mind which has not been shared with the Committee before. This is not dissimilar from what is required in an educational statement. A statement of special educational needs does not simply diagnose a child’s condition; it lists the support that the public authority will need to provide. I throw that in because it is the kind of thing that is in our minds. If there has been a work-focused interview, it might be sensible for such a provision to be embodied in the minutes and an undertaking given.

Beyond that, I have two points to put to the Minister. The first relates to education. Many of the people who have problems returning to work may be either educationally disadvantaged or educationally demoralised. They may need, in parallel with the pathways programme, to have access to educational programmes to support them and make them employable. I am not clear whether that comes under this rubric and whether that would be regarded as work-related activity. It is educational and the Minister hardly needs me to remind him that there is an important distinction running through a lot of social security law between participating in educational activity and a benefit-qualifying activity. We perhaps should be clearer what the relationship is and who will  “prescribe” the necessary education and/or see that is carried out to an acceptable level.

My second point relates to health specification. Again, all members of the Committee will know that many people within the allowance will have personal health problems, including those of a less glamorous nature such as addiction to drugs or alcohol. They will need to get themselves sorted out before they can be easily and safely employable. While I am aware from having seen the pathways project in Derbyshire that there is a very constructive working relationship with the primary care trust there, I am not certain exactly what the nature of the interface with the customer is and whether health-related interventions would be on the ticket or would be dealt with separately, bearing in mind that there is an issue of propriety about this.

It is one thing to say to an individual, “You have an alcoholism problem and in your own interests it should be sorted out.” It is another to say, “Your alcoholism problem is preventing you from being ready to go to work and to come off benefit and we are going to remediate that.” I am rehearsing some potential ethical problems and the different solutions that might be required. The person’s GP may be able to sort it out. Clearly it needs to be sorted out but we have to be clear whether it is an intervention under the health service or under the ESA and work-focused activity programme. There are delicacies about this that could give rise to difficulties. I should like the Minister to touch on those matters when he responds to amendment No. 238.

Amendments Nos. 239 to 241 are about the nature of the sanctions regime. Generally speaking the Committee has not set up any Aunt Sallies, which sometimes happens. We are too grown up and frankly the subject is too serious. However, in my view, there is not a huge population of people desperate to avoid work at any cost—I notice that the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Kali Mountford) is nodding with some enthusiasm. All the evidence is that most people with a disability or other condition limiting their ability to work would like to go back to work given the opportunity and encouragement to do so. That is the Committee’s philosophy and is not in any way contentious.

The Minister will remind us rightly, however, that we need an element of sanction for the minority that will not play the game. Let us consider the historical evidence from sanctions programmes. I have spoken at little debates on sanctions and questioned, without wanting to sound like a far-left caricature, whether they work or are necessary. In a sense, it is rather like dealing with one’s own children: if it is necessary to take the sanctions, the sanctions have failed. It is the threat of sanctions that underpins the process, not their actuality.

The amendments address the surprising fact that the Government might be one-club golfers—to borrow a phrase used to describe somebody’s economic policy, although we had best not go too far down that road. They have only financial sanctions. They have the ability to reduce benefits and it might be worth at least taking other powers, although I am not saying that they should use those all the time. We are offering Ministers a free gift here: they might consider a wider range of sanctions—more clubs in the golf bag.

The Minister might seek to question me, but I do not have a ready-made list of sanctions. Sometimes, Ministers come along with such lists: shall we take away their driving licence, their passport or whatever? I am not canvassing for that, but recording my surprise that he is going simply for the financial sanction and is not at the moment prepared to look at a range of potential ones that might be appropriate in particular cases, or become appropriate at some stage.

Wayne David (Caerphilly, Labour)

Forgive me, I am slightly confused. The hon. Gentleman seems to be making a case for other sanctions, but he is very reluctant to give any examples of what they might be.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

I think that the hon. Gentleman exposes the dilemma to which I was trying to get the Minister to respond. All I am saying is that if I were a Minister responsible for this matter—entering the realm of fantasy for a moment—I would prefer to have more than one possible recourse. I do not know what the others might be, although as a matter of fact, I recorded a couple—withdrawal of driving licences or passports—which would be quite nasty for people, but I am by no means certain that they would be the right ones to adopt. Certainly, I would not like the Committee to think that I have advocated those. However, I find it surprising that Ministers have apparently closed their minds to alternative sanctions. It is one thing not to have them in a pilot scheme, but another not to at least have the power to consider them if something became possible or was worth trying out. Of course, they would have to be proportionate and reasonable.

Kali Mountford (PPS (Rt Hon Des Browne, Secretary of State), Ministry of Defence; Colne Valley, Labour)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way because I think that he was about to expand the point that I was going to put to him. For people with some disabilities, the sense of isolation can be a very big problem. Would it not be an extraordinary sanction to take away their driving licence when that might be the very means by which they can have contact with the outside world? Such a sanction might be disproportionately more difficult for some than others.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

I am bound to say that I agree with the hon. Lady. In fact, I have not always been falling over myself to welcome some of the more draconian measures that have been taken by, for example, the Home Office in those regards. However, I find it surprising that, at a time when some parts of the Government can be quite authoritarian in imposing sanctions, they are not considering them in this case.

There is also a factor to bear in mind, to which the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey referred this morning, which is that the use of a financial sanction is not simply specific to the person, but affects the family, because there may not be enough money to go round. I am trying to be fair-minded, because I am genuinely rehearsing my own doubts on the matter, but equally, the hon. Member for Colne Valley says that even more malign consequences could arise from a particular decision.  Nobody is trying to suggest that the matter should be penal, but we are trying at least to find the option available to a decision maker to formulate a sanction that might be fit for purpose. One might be compulsory attendance at something, specifically, after a failure. I do not know. However, I would like the Minister to think about that.

In conclusion, there is the question of resources and amendment No. 241. That is back to the world of access to work, if I can put it like that in shorthand. It is about seeing what is required to encourage the claimant back into work. That is there simply to hammer home the point that we have made strongly, and will continue to make—that the objective is to get the claimant back into work. We shall not succeed unless sufficient support is given appropriately, and that must be considered in the regulations and any sanctions that are imposed as part of the regime. Genuinely, I hope that I have not staked out a claim to take the hard right on the matter by saying that we need more sanctions, or the far left by saying that no sanctions are envisaged. I am not sure which sanctions are best, but I do not think that Ministers should disable themselves from a range of sanctions, so that they may be developed, brought in and tailored to the individual’s circumstances, in the interests of encouraging that claimant back to work—no more and no less than that.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

The hon. Gentleman, in a thoughtful set of remarks, has opened up a fruitful avenue for discussion. By probing the question of sanctions a little further, not just the philosophy of them but the research and the question of efficacy, he underpins the sanctions-based approach. I shall be interested to hear more about that from the Minister.

In a previous debate—in this Committee Room, I think, in a Statutory Instrument Committee—I asked the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Plaskitt), what evidence the Government have for the idea that sanctions work, or that they fulfil the role that Ministers believe that they fulfil. In that debate, he said that a substantial body of research evidence showed that sanctions served the purpose that Ministers believe that they serve: they encourage people to engage in processes. In a subsequent exchange of correspondence with the Minister, I asked him to list the library references of research papers that the Department had commissioned, given that there is an increasingly prevalent element of Government policy in the social security field. I am afraid that not one academic reference came back—not one extensive piece of Department for Work and Pensions research to back up that thinking. A couple of statistics were quoted, but not much more than that. A fair response to the Minister would be that the belief in the efficacy of sanctions is a matter of principle, as opposed to a matter of evidence-based policy making, if I can use that phrase.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

The hon. Gentleman will find that I am entirely in sympathy with the argument that he is developing. I have found Ministers, when I have asked parliamentary questions, for example, extraordinarily coy on the matter of efficacy. At the moment, I cannot  help feeling that the ministerial position may be more sensitive in the event than in the statement. It could be summed up in the words of Lear:

“I will do such things—

What they are, yet I know not: but they shall be

The terrors of the earth.”

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I cannot compete with the hon. Gentleman for erudition.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

There was a young man from Inverness—

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

Who got into a frightful mess.

Over the course of the last 50 minutes we have roamed over philosophy and poetry. If I may bring the conversation back down to earth, I understand the point that the hon. Member for Daventry is making. There is a serious point at the heart of that intervention. What body of evidence does the Minister have for the idea that sanctions work? If there is no such body of evidence, what is the underpinning principle of the policy that is being developed in this Bill and others? I agree with the hon. Member for Daventry that if sanctions have to be used in many cases it means that the system has failed.

In that context, will the Minister answer a question that I posed in the earlier sitting? How often does he think that the sanctioning power in this and other clauses will be used? Another question, which echoes the point made by the hon. Member for Daventry, is what research has he undertaken into the impact of making use of these sanctioning powers, particularly on child poverty which was of some interest to the Committee in earlier discussions? What research has he undertaken into the use of sanctions on claimants?

Adam Afriyie (Windsor, Conservative)

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would also point out to the Minister that in the area of mental health, sanctions or the threat of sanctions are incredibly important to the outcome of that condition, even in the case of marginal conditions.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I am sure that the Minister will respond to that.

I should be interested to hear the Minister develop his argument on the issue of sanctions on the parents of dependent children. With those few remarks, I echo and support what the hon. Member for Daventry said. I hope that the Minister can continue to illuminate our discussion in the philosophical and poetical manner in which it has been conducted thus far.

Jeremy Hunt (Shadow Minister (the Disabled), Work & Pensions; South West Surrey, Conservative)

We have had a good discussion on these amendments and I should like to speak briefly to them. The first amendment concerns the support being offered. I should like to go back to something that the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Stirling, said this morning. She made an important point about the rights and responsibilities agenda and the fact that the Bill talks about the  Government playing their part in helping people previously excluded from the labour market to get closer to it.

There are nine paragraphs in subsection (2), eight of which talk about requirements on the claimant orthe customer. Only one is a requirement on the Government and it is simply that the Government notify the claimant what the requirements on himare. Nothing in the subsection talks about the Government’s responsibility to ensure that the appropriate support is in place for the work-related activity to happen.

I want to stress, in the positive spirit of much of our discussions, that the Government’s intentions in this respect are wholly right. I have no doubt that they intend to put in place the support for people, so it seems curious that it is not written in the Bill that one of the requirements of the work-related activity process should be that the appropriate support is given. The Bill simply lists the requirements on the claimants. We do not get that balance which the Under-Secretary rightly pointed out is such an important philosophical underpinning of the Bill.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

Does my hon. Friend also agree that there is another party to this particular transaction of work-related activity, namely the employers or the person who may be involved in delivering or facilitating the activity? There is and must be consideration, particularly where a sanctions regime is likely to be invoked, as to whether any failure by the employer—or third party, in shorthand—might itself have been the cause of the failure of the claimant to meet the required standard or expectation.

Jeremy Hunt (Shadow Minister (the Disabled), Work & Pensions; South West Surrey, Conservative)

My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point and in fact gives a flavour of some of the things that I was hoping to say on the amendments under clause 13. He is absolutely right; the employer’s co-operation is essential. There is only person who can ensure that that happens, and that is the personal adviser who is supporting the claim of the customer in order to help them through the process of work-related activity. It is extremely important, therefore, that there is a responsibility for the Government to provide the necessary support.

All the organisations that I have spoken to that place people in work—such as Action for Blind People and Remploy, both of which I visited recently—talk about the relationship between the personal adviser and the employer being the critical factor in the success of the whole process. In particular, the important element is the support that is given once the person has been placed in employment. It is not something that stops as soon as someone is given a job; it is an ongoing process.

Accepting this amendment—I note that so far the Government have not accepted a single amendment we have proposed—would be in tune with the intentions that the Government have—[Interruption.]

Kali Mountford (PPS (Rt Hon Des Browne, Secretary of State), Ministry of Defence; Colne Valley, Labour)

In the hon. Gentleman’s examination of how the relationship works, did he find any examples where the relationship could be prescribed and did he find out whether that prescription was actually helpful?

Jeremy Hunt (Shadow Minister (the Disabled), Work & Pensions; South West Surrey, Conservative)

I am not sure what points the hon. Lady is trying to make, but I am happy to give way if she wants to elaborate further. This amendment is not saying that the actions should be prescribed; it is saying that the support, which will be a vital part of the success of this programme, should be agreed. The details of that support can have tremendous effects.

In clause 12 all the requirements on the claimant are written down clearly but, apart from the responsibility to notify the claimant of their obligations, there is no requirement on the Government. I do not believe that this reflects the Government’s intentions in the Bill.

It is not the place for primary legislation to prescribe precisely what support is given, but it can none the less prescribe that support should be given, and that is the point that we are trying to make.

Unless the hon. Lady wishes to intervene again, I shall move on to the question of sanctions. In my short time as a Member of Parliament, listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry, this is the first time that I have heard a Member of Parliament stand up and say that they do not know the answer to the problem but that there is a problem. It is to his credit that he spoke in the way that he did because he draws attention to one of the issues surrounding the sanctioning regime. It is an issue that every member of the Committee is aware of, because I imagine that we have spoken to people involved in the pilots and have found that sanctions are very rarely used because, in practice, what personal advisers find most effective is carrots rather than sticks. Sticks are very much a last resort. I respect the Government’s view that they need to be there as a last resort, but the concern that I have—I share my hon. Friend’s concerns in this respect—is that sometimes some form of sanctioning might be appropriate when the claimant is not co-operating to a reasonable degree with the work-related activity process.

Sometimes a financial sanction might not be the right way of encouraging participation. The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey pointed out that child poverty is a key issue here. We know that a third of working-age disabled people have children and we know that one in four of people who are growing up in poverty have a disabled parent. We know that there is a strong link between the two. In that situation, it might not be appropriate to exercise a financial sanction even if someone was being deliberately unco-operative, because not only the claimant would lose out, but possibly their children as well. No one in the Committee would support such an outcome. However, in that situation other sanctions could or should be exercised.

The amendments are designed to give the Government flexibility so that in regulations they could provide for alternatives, although the last thing that we want to do is impose inappropriate alternatives. For example, we have just discussed driving licences. I agree completely that in a lot of situations the withdrawal of a licence would be inappropriate, but there might be other situations in which the withdrawal of benefits would not be appropriate but the driving licence sanction would.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry, I do not know the answer, but it would be good if the Bill had the flexibility to allow the Government to develop  their thinking. Amendment No. 239 tries simply to exchange “is” for “may be” so that the Government are not obliged in such a situation to reduce benefit payments, but may do so if they chose. It is not a particularly strong amendment; it is designed to give the Government more flexibility to produce desirable outcomes.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

Characteristically, we have heard some thoughtful contributions, and hopefully I can continue that in the tone and content of my comments.

The hon. Member for South-West Surrey mentioned in passing that the Government have not seen fit to accept any of the amendments. Any fair adjudication of proceedings thus far would find that in every instance bar two or three, I think, there has been a meeting of minds over the purpose of the powers in the draft regulations that the Government are introducing. I am sure that he would not seek to caricature the Government as belligerent. In fact, I think that we have heard a really thoughtful set of contributions.

The Government and outside organisations will reflect on those comments as we move through later stages of the Bill. I think that that is the spirit in which the hon. Gentleman meant his comment; I do not think that he was suggesting that day in, day out we have thwarted reasonable suggestions. The Oppositionhave probed us quite rightly, and quite rightly we have provided reassurance. That is the spirit in which we have conducted proceedings.

On the specific amendments, Opposition Members, in particular the hon. Members for Daventry and for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, mentioned child poverty and sanctions. They are correct in their analysis. We have spoken before about child poverty, so perhaps it would be inappropriate to dwell on it for too long now, but there are common factors in the prevalence of child poverty in the UK: family size, ethnicity, disability and generational aspiration within the family structure. As we all know, one of the weaknesses of incapacity benefit is the way in which it has become generational, not because of an injury, ailment or illness, but because of aspirations within the family.

I say this gently because we should not get into the cut and thrust of political to-ing and fro-ing unless others feel that we should: it is a matter of public record—every commentator regardless of political persuasion accepts this—that until the mid-1990s, the UK had the fastest-growing child poverty rate of any major industrialised nation. That is a matter of public record. We do not need to ask why—

David Ruffley (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Bury St Edmunds, Conservative)

But you are.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

I am not. That was a statement of fact, although we can have a conversation about why, if Mr. Amess allows us. I am stating it as a matter of public record. The rates of child poverty in the United Kingdom are now falling faster than those in any major economy on the globe. We have not yet gone far  enough; we have a lot more work to do, but the fact is that we had the highest rate, and we now have the fastest falling rate.

David Ruffley (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Bury St Edmunds, Conservative)

I will not go down the party political route to rebut some of the points that the Minister was hinting at. Is he aware of the powerful comments on child poverty made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition?

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

I have no idea whether the Leader of the Opposition made them in the morning or the afternoon, or whether they were the same comments at both times of the day. I have not read the specific comments that he has made on child poverty, but I am happy to receive them.

David Ruffley (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Bury St Edmunds, Conservative)

You might learn something.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman says that I might learn something. Mr. Amess, I know that you will not allow us to go down this line of conversation for much longer, but many of us on the Labour Benches feel this genetically—we are entirely committed, for all sorts of reasons, not just to a reduction, but to the eradication of child poverty. I do not want to dwell on the party political nature of the issue, but it is a matter of public record that we inherited the highest, fastest growing levels of child poverty, when one in three children grew up in poverty. One in five children were in a workless household during that period. I do not want to apportion blame, but that is a statement of where we are, of progress that has been made, and an assessment of the contribution that the Bill can make to the eradication of child poverty.

Mr. Huntrose—

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if, Mr. Amess, it remains in order in your judgment.

Jeremy Hunt (Shadow Minister (the Disabled), Work & Pensions; South West Surrey, Conservative)

I am grateful to the Minister. I am standing up to ask the Minister, in the interests of making progress on the Bill, to restrict his comments to the Bill. If he wants to discuss what happened in the 1980s and 1990s, we have our version of what happened. There were many problems, of which child poverty was one. That Government tried to tackle other problems, including the economic crisis that we inherited from his party in 1979. Before Mr. Amess brings me to order, I simply say to the Minister that it does not help. All of us on the Conservative Benches in this Committee have been talking about child poverty in the context of the Bill, and our concern is that some of the measures within it might not achieve the shared objective that we all have, which is to eliminate child poverty. If the Minister restricted his comments to that, we might have a more productive discussion.

David Amess (Southend West, Conservative)

Order. Oh dear, things were going so well. Can I ask hon. Members on both sides of the Committee to return to the amendments?

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

Thank you, Mr. Amess. Of course, I shall obey your stricture. I thought that the hon. Member for South-West Surrey was auditioning for your job.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I do not intend to take part in the party political bickering that has just taken place on both sides. On the question of child poverty—

David Amess (Southend West, Conservative)

Order. I say to the Committee for the last time: Minister, can we please return to the amendments—not child poverty, or any other party political matters?

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

Thank you, Mr Amess. Of course, I will obey your strictures. I wonder, however, whether you would allow us some leeway because a specific question has been asked about the sanctions power that we are taking in the clause and the likely impact on child poverty. It is entirely up to you to judge whether that would be an appropriate topic of discussion. I did not seek to create party political friction. I was trying to record an objective analysis of what has happened in this country over the past two decades. One of the issues concerning child poverty is that it is down to hon. Members to assess what welfare reform is most likely to eradicate it.

Returning to the tone that we had three or so minutes ago, I was analysing whether child poverty could be eradicated if a parent with a dependent child spent prolonged periods on benefit, even though there was an alternative available, with appropriate support. Our sense—there is a wealth of evidence that this is indisputably the case—is that the opportunity to come off benefit and into work at the right level with the right mix of skills and the chance to progress not just into a job but into a career, is the most effective pathway out of poverty. It is not appropriate for everyone because of different family circumstances, but it is the most successful and effective pathway out of poverty.

I do not doubt the sincerity of the comments of the hon. Member for Daventry. Having that sanction is the last option. With pathways it was used for about 1 per cent. of customers and we would be delighted if it were less than that as it is rolled out. However, it is used as a last option and a further way of enforcing engagement with a process that is aimed at getting people closer to and then involved in the labour market, which is an effective way of reducing and eradicating child poverty within that family unit. The hon. Gentleman raises a reasonable point about the impact on child poverty, but it is our assessment that encouraging participation and engagement in work-focused interviews and work-related activity has a much greater effect in terms of what we are seeking to do than what may happen in a small number of cases, based on the 1 per cent. of instances in pathways where sanctions have unfortunately been necessary.

Jeremy Hunt (Shadow Minister (the Disabled), Work & Pensions; South West Surrey, Conservative)

What sanctions will the Minister be able to use under the Bill for someone who is not co-operating in the process, without good reason, but for whom a financial sanction would not be  appropriate because it might affect children in the household who might descend further into child poverty?

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

I will come to that later in my comments.

The hon. Members for Daventry and for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey asked how we would progress on sanctions under clause 12. We are currently considering the effectiveness and the operation of the sanctions within the pathway pilots. Next summer we can come to some conclusions about the operation of those sanctions. From that we will draw our conclusions and form the specific sanctioning regime around which work-related activity will be focused.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

The Minister quoted the figure of 1 per cent. as being those within the ambit of the sanctions regimes in pathways. I would not like the Committee to go away with the idea that this not an important issue once the pathways are rolled out. Look at the stock of incapacity benefit claimants into which the Minister would eventually like to make inroads: 1 per cent. of that is 27,000 people and their families. There will be an awful lot of hard cases. That is an argument not for taking away the sanctions regime, but for applying it very sensitively and with the best possible range of options that decision makers and personal advisers can use to encourage those people to co-operate.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman is right, based on those crude statistics, but I am sure that he would accept the analysis, which is that one in six of those currently on incapacity benefit have children. Therefore, 1 per cent. of those one in six is an entirely different figure.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

I rise simply to correct the record. The calculation that I did in my head to make the point that a significant number of people were involved discounted the fact that, even if eventually incapacity benefit claimants were migrated on to the ESA, a significant number would be within the support allowance. I would not like the Committee to get the impression that it would necessarily be the whole lot. I am simply saying that quite a lot of people could be affected and we need to be sensitive in their interests.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

That is a reasonable point and adds to the point that I had already made: one in six of current customers have a dependent child. Initially as we move into ESA, there is no reason to think that that figure will change overnight. However, with the support group alongside that, the proportion with dependent children who could attract a sanction would be smaller still. We will seek to learn lessons from the pathways sanctions and the pilots. We will publish the evidence in the summer of next year and then construct the new system, with consultation, to ensure that we strike the right balance.

I shall turn to a point raised by the hon. Member for South-West Surrey. I am sure that he has had the opportunity to read clause 12(4):

“Regulations under subsection (3) may, in particular, make provision for determining...and may include provision prescribing circumstances in which the amount of the reduction is to be nil.”

We might learn that lesson when taking forward sanctions and we have the power in the Bill to prescribe circumstances under which a financial sanction might not be appropriate. That route might be more fruitful than the one suggested by the hon. Member for Daventry for alternative purposes and sanctions.

I shall comment on some of the specific points made by the hon. Gentleman. I do so entirely in the same tone in which he offered them because, like others, he was frank enough in his analysis to say, “Here are some ideas”. On driving licences—others have commented on this too—it could be argued that getting a licence in the first place is a work-related activity. Should we take away what could be considered to be, in some circumstances, work-related activity? However, I appreciate that he raised it as a point of debate, and we will reflect on it.

On passports, the evidence is that folk on benefit and those from poorer families, who have less access to reliable credit, credit cards, and mortgages from established banks are asked for an authoritative form of identification more often than the rest of the population. Analysis has shown how often a middle class white man is asked for proof of identification—a disproportionate number of us here are middle class white men, although not all of us. On average, I think that they are asked for identity three times a year.

Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

They are Scottish.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) talks about the Scots. I think that Derby played an important part in the history of Scotland—it was almost as far as we got. However, she would not wish to get involved in that conversation. I do not know whether she advocates the permanent occupation of Derby by the Scots, and I have no idea what that would mean for accents. It seems to have worked okay in Corby and some other places.

On the passport sanction, the hon. Member for Daventry raises an interesting idea. However, let us consider the profile of customers on IB and ESA. In the absence of an identity card—let us not have that conversation today—a passport is often the only accepted form of identification for people from poorer families and households because of their lack of a reliable credit record or mortgage. That is another route we are not tempted to go down. The power in clause 12(4) is more appropriate and the one on which the Government have settled—the power to prescribe “nil” as the applicable amount.

Jeremy Hunt (Shadow Minister (the Disabled), Work & Pensions; South West Surrey, Conservative)

Will the Minister return to my earlier intervention? Does the Bill give the Government any alternatives to the financial sanction? I accept his helpful reassurance that the Government do not have to apply the financial sanction, but will they have the power to apply any other sanctions? There might be situations in which a sanction should be applied, but a financial sanction would be the wrong one.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

I ask the hon. Gentleman to look at page 6 of the draft regulations. We do not intend to take the power to apply alternative sanctions for the reasons that I have stipulated already. The draft regulations seek to ensure that, when possible, we avoid having to use the sanctions. As I said earlier, we intend, after consultation, to take the type of safeguards we are putting in place in clause 11 across to clause 12. Hon. Members can see for themselves the extent of safeguards that are put in place. They include advising customers of appointments and making contact between each interview. I will not read the full list of nine or 10 safeguards on page 6 of our draft regulations. On top of that, and not listed, is the right of appeal against any financial sanction. That is our approach. There are very strong safeguards.

Adam Afriyie (Windsor, Conservative)

I still do not think that the Minister has answered the direct question from my colleague. What sanctions will there be other than financial ones?

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

To be fair to the hon. Gentleman, he may have missed my comment. I said that the Bill does not take the power for any other sanction. We do not think it appropriate to have a wider or an alternative power to the sanction of gradual reduction in two tranches of the work-related activity component, until such time as conditionality and the customer again participates in work-focused interviews and, over time, work-related activity.

Adam Afriyie (Windsor, Conservative)

It was just the very short question: why does the Secretary of State not seek to have the ability to impose other non-financial sanctions that may be helpful for people returning to work?

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

Is the hon. Gentleman willing to suggest any? I accept the tone of the remarks of the hon. Member for Daventry and the difficulty that he identified, but the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) strikes a different tone, so I invite him to identify an alternative sanction.

Adam Afriyie (Windsor, Conservative)

Let us say that for someone who has a mental health challenge the sanction might be that they must attend certain types of cognitive-based therapy. Perhaps that would be more appropriate than threatening to withdraw money.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman, for entirely good reasons, such as other commitments in the House, may have been unable to be in Committee when we had this debate on earlier clauses. If someone participates in cognitive behaviour therapy and other types of support, they would not attract a sanction in the first place because that would be deemed to be work-related activity. Does he have a workable alternative for a sanction?

Adam Afriyie (Windsor, Conservative)

We are scrutinising legislation here and I am asking the Minister questions to examine why the Government have not chosen to make allowance in the Bill or the regulations to use other forms of sanctions that may be more appropriate.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

I suspect the answer to my question is no. The hon. Gentleman has therefore come to the same conclusion as the Government, so I am glad that he apparently agrees with us.

These discussions are about the formulation of the powers that we take. Two of the most readily used alternative sanctions are the two that the hon. Member for Daventry fairly identified. As I sought to explain to the Committee, we do not think that those would be appropriate in the context. There is a general acceptance that in almost all, if not all, circumstances withdrawing a driving licence would not be appropriate. In terms of the profile, withdrawal of passports from customers on ESA and IB would not be appropriate either. At that point, we settle on a sanction as a last resort on the basis that significant safeguards are outlined on page 6 of our draft regulations.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I am grateful to the Minister for his reassurance and I agree with the points that he has made about some of those other sanctions. He may have been about to come to the point that I raised earlier. It concerned the evidence base for suggesting that the sort of sanctions that the Government are taking powers for in the Bill are efficacious, or is it more a matter of principle?

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

I shall shortly conclude my remarks on the amendments, because I am now answering a question for a second time. The response that I have already given is that we have pilot sanctions in pathways, and we will analyse their effectiveness and publish our conclusions. We will take the lessons of that into the draft regulations on how sanctions will work in relation to work-related activity. We will consult on that and, of course, Parliament will hold the regulations to account through the appropriate channels and mechanisms and consider whether they represent the right thing to do.

Kali Mountford (PPS (Rt Hon Des Browne, Secretary of State), Ministry of Defence; Colne Valley, Labour)

I am becoming quite frustrated by this debate. Will my hon. Friend the Minister re-examine closely the safeguards needed? Is it not a fact that the process is also important? A person might be afraid of attending an interview or have had past experience that makes them feel that something of which they are fearful might happen. The visits and conversations that will take place before any sanctions are imposed might enable someone to take an opportunity that they would otherwise not avail themselves of.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

Again, my hon. Friend speaks from her experience of dealing with her constituents. She continues to campaign and brings that practical experience to the Committee’s attention. Her point is made clearly on page 6 of the draft regulations, through such provisions as an offer of

“a more convenient location or a home visit where appropriate...visiting those customers with whom there has been no verbal contact”

before a work-focused interview and encouraging an advocate to attend and support a customer at each interaction. The tone and spirit of such protections  under clause 11 will be carried across and built on under clause 12 in the regulations on which we will consult.

Sanctions will be a last resort in a small number of cases in which a person does not participate in work-related activity, which, as hon. Members know, carries the broad definition contained in the Green Paper. It will involve stabilising life and getting closer to the labour market. Sanctions will apply if, without good cause—that also has a wide definition—a person does not participate. They will have the right of independent appeal against any sanction and, both in the powers that we are taking in the Bill and in the tone of the draft regulations, it is clear that sanctions are our last resort. The regime will not be sanctions led; it will be about support. As a last resort, the Government must have the opportunity to use sanctions as a way finally to engage those who have not yet participated. From the experience of pathways, we hope that 1 per cent will be the maximum proportion of people involved as we roll out the sanctions. With that reassurance, I encourage hon. Members not to press the amendments.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

I am grateful to the Minister for his comments. I sense that you, Mr. Amess, and the rest of the Committee would like to make progress, and I do not intend to speak at length. The only self-indulgence that I will bring to the party is to say that last year, in my capacity as an ambassador for the National Forest, I had the privilege of planting a number of new oak trees within sight of Stanton Bridge, the exact point outside Derby where the Jacobite army turned around in 1745. I was on the right side of that particular conflict. I know that that is as far as I should go.

We were in a slightly unusual position with the amendments, because as I spoke to them I was conscious that I was probing both the Minister and my own mind. It is a difficult matter. The Minister has endeavoured to reply, but I would have been happy for him to take powers to introduce sanctions other than purely financial ones, albeit with the safeguards that he has properly set out. The Government do not often get from the Opposition free offers of greater powers, but in this case he could have banked that. I am surprised that he has not availed himself of the opportunity.

On the whole I like to emphasis the positive in a Bill, but I might wish to say a word on clause stand part. Given that we have rehearsed already the lead amendment No. 238 and the need for adequate support for claimants, I do not think that it is necessary to press it. The Minister has declined the free offer and, in response, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

I beg to move amendment No. 242, in clause 12, page 11, line 40, at end add—

‘(8) Regulations under this section may make provision to ensure that the ability to carry out “work related activity” is not automatically treated as evidence that the claimant’s capability to work has improved.’.

I shall be brief because we have discussed the essential point here before, but the Committee needs to remind itself of its importance. There is an inherent equivocation in the personal capability assessment. Is it a pass or failure if the claimant shows that they are not capable of work? It follows that many people are equivocal and probably even more are worried that if they do succeed, which is the objective, they will find themselves “humbugged”—to use a Victorian phrase—by losing their benefits.

The Minister said that that is a separate process and would not be triggered by an ability to work. Formally, that is the case. However, just because he has said it once does not mean that it is not appropriate to ask him to say it again or for us to remind him that it really matters to the claimants. The last thing any of us want is for people to go bravely through a rather difficult process and make progress, only to discover that they are worse off than they intended or deserve. I hope that that does not happen.

I emphasise not only the facts of the matter, but the word on the street and people’s concern that success in the assessment itself might lead to sanctions, which might cause them not to do the sensible thing and therefore lead them into a sanction regime—returning to our earlier discussion. They would have chosen the route of failure, which would be in nobody’s interest.

Jeremy Hunt (Shadow Minister (the Disabled), Work & Pensions; South West Surrey, Conservative)

I shall briefly support my hon. Friend’s comments. There is widespread concern among a number of out-of-work disabled people that any involvement in the world of work could trigger a reassessment of their disability status—if I can put it that way. That could in turn threaten their benefits package, which is incredibly important to their independence.

I know that that is not what the Government intend, but mistakes happen. Citizens Advice reported an occurrence in north Wales where a higher-rate disability living allowance claimant lost his wife, after which he started to work for seven and a half hours a week. He was incorrectly advised by his local benefits office that he could not do that work and claim benefits at the same time. Clearly, that was a mistake. Those things happen. One purpose of the amendment is to provide reassurance to people that involving themselves in work-related activity will not lead to a reassessment of their limited capability to work.

In conclusion, I remind the Minister of a recent Capability Scotland survey of unemployed disabled people. It found that the reason half of them did not want to involve themselves in the world of work was their fear of losing their benefits package. The amendment might help to assuage those fears. I look forward to any reassurance that the Minister might be able to give.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

I shall seek to respond quickly; I know that some people, including my the Vice-Chamberlain of Her Majesty's Household, my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Heppell), are becoming impatient because we have not made as much progress as was initially anticipated.

The point made by the hon. Member for Daventry about the importance of language harks back to a previous debate. The Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling, reminded me that previously, when someone undertook a PCA in respect of an IB claim, the communication said, “Dear Mrs. Jones, this is to confirm that you passed the PCA.” What is passing or failing a PCA? If someone passed the PCA, they were entitled to incapacity benefit. It is that sense of language.

I say to the hon. Gentleman that undertaking permitted work will not in itself trigger a change in benefit entitlement. A change of condition will lead to a change in consideration of someone’s entitlement to benefit. That change of condition would not be analysed on the basis of what the person was now doing under permitted work rules but on a new PCA, the process of which we discussed in our earlier clauses, based on the 15 points and 46 descriptors. That will be the sole basis for the judgment whether someone remains entitled to ESA, contrary to the quite reasonable concerns that some people in this country beyond the Committee might have. It is important to emphasise that, which is why I am glad that the hon. Gentleman gave me the opportunity to confirm that to the Committee and therefore others.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

I think that we are almost there. We needed that reassurance. It is important, but I must hammer it home to the Minister that language matters a lot. The more user-friendly and positive it can be, the better. There will be plenty of people to rubbish it, but we should start with the positive.

There might be some concerns—I picked them up informally in discussion the other day—about whether people could lose out on existing benefits: for example, in the linking rules where they undertake work. Perhaps at the moment—I am using oldspeak—if they have higher rate incapacity benefit, they might come back in at a lower rate. Beyond the Minister’s assurance, which of course I accept as he has given it, is the need to check whether perverse incentives still buried in some of the arrangements’ small print, like the one that I mentioned, could mean that people undertaking work-related activity—although he referred to permitted work, which is not quite the same thing—might lose out in certain circumstances. Nobody wants that. The more sensitive we are to it, the more likely we are to avoid it. In that spirit, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

David Amess (Southend West, Conservative)

Before we come to the expected debate on clause 12 stand part, I remind the Committee that we have had a fairly wide debate already. I am perfectly happy for Members to make their contributions if they try to stick to matters that have not already been discussed.

Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

I wish to make a general point about clause 12, which I think is the most important clause in the Bill. I draw the Committee’s attention to the explanatory notes, which define work-related activity as

“undertaking activity that increases the likelihood of getting a job. This may include activities such as work trials or training”.

It is the training aspect of work-related activity that I would like to talk about. The training and skills part of the Bill is absolutely fundamental to its success.

It is also important to note that we are discussing the Bill’s detail at the same time as Sandy Leitch is carrying out a general review of skills, examining the matter with a cross-departmental approach. I do not wantto pre-empt what he will say on skills, but I wish to highlight the issue and to encourage the Minister to support a cross-departmental effort involving the Department for Education and Skills, the Department for Work and Pensions, the Department of Trade and Industry and the Treasury in order to ensure that the skills aspect is never forgotten.

The Jobcentre Plus network was designed initially to be a one-stop shop for everything related to being out of work. Jobcentre Plus would be the first to admit that it does not really consider skills and skills training to be its core function, yet basic skills—I mean hard skills such as literacy and numeracy—are one of the serious issues facing the group of people that we hope to help with the Bill.

I would like to introduce the Committee to Derbyshire Dave. Derbyshire Dave used to be a miner in North-East Derbyshire. My constituency is actually not close to Derby at all; it is much closer to Sheffield. We border South Yorkshire. It is one of the coalfields constituencies, but it has a large number of people who used to be steelworkers. Derbyshire Dave could be an ex-miner or ex-steelworker who has lost his job and has been on incapacity benefit for a while, but is keen to get involved in pathways to work. Derbyshire Dave exists. He is so willing that he walked into Jobcentre Plus to demand to be put on the scheme. That is an important aspect in respect of our earlier debate; the people keen to participate who come and ask to be put on pathways to work are the issue, rather than the dragging of people into Jobcentre Plus.

Derbyshire Dave, very keen to get a job, has taken part in all the condition management programmes and retraining. The problem is that North-East Derbyshire, like many other constituencies, is rural; Derbyshire Dave is often not willing to do the kind of work available. In fact, he is being offered work behind the checkout at Morrisons or Tesco; those are the jobs we have in the constituency.

Derbyshire Dave is ready and willing to work and keen to get involved in the labour market. However, the jobs available are not suitable. What happens to him? He is in the ESA group; he goes straight on to the jobseeker’s allowance and all the support available through the personal advisers in the system is withdrawn because he is now a straightforward jobseeker. If he were to find a job, he would still for up to a year have all the in-work support that would be available to anybody who goes on from pathways into work.

Derbyshire Dave has serious issues and I am worried that in this legislation he falls between two stools. This is a problem that affects rural areas. The city strategy is fantastic and very important in bringing together all the different agencies and employers and everybody else who is willing to get people off incapacity benefit and into work. In rural areas, however, we do not have the transport networks of cities, nor their variety of jobs in geographical locations close by.

To address the issue, we have launched a rural pilot similar to the city strategies. One of the ways of doing that is to pull together all the different agencies to ensure that we can identify the issues and overcome them locally ourselves. Making sure that the local delivery is in place will be one of the most important parts of the Bill and the clause; that is the only way in which any of this can be delivered.

One of the issues that we identified in our rural pilot was that nobody was specifically responsible for mapping the local economy—the local labour market now and of the future. For any Committee member who drives up the M1 to their constituency, I should say that we are between junctions 29 and 30. Weare about to have a huge employment zone. In theshort term, that means construction jobs; in the medium term, it means more construction jobs; inthe long term, it means lots of different kinds of businesses. Nobody in my constituency or the surrounding constituencies is identifying the skills needs now, in the medium term and in the future to make sure that the people on incapacity benefit in my constituency are able to have the benefit of the jobs once they come up. We are debating the Bill against the backdrop of the eight accession countries.

David Ruffley (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Bury St Edmunds, Conservative)

We are listening to the hon. Lady’s contribution with interest but also a bit of alarm. I am very surprised to hear that there is not more strategic thinking to identify conditions that might be prevalent in her area and to work out what form of training package might fit the needs. I am staggered and disappointed to hear about the various public bodies, whose job is to think strategically and answer the hon. Lady’s exact questions. Will she say a bit more about the issue?

Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire, Labour)

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. I deliberately painted a rather bleak picture to highlight the problem. We can make national legislation and produce a good national legislative framework for the system to exist in, but only local delivery matters. Lots of different public, private and voluntary organisations are doing some of that work.

The city strategy brings all of that together in a coherent manner, which may not be true in rural areas, and I am worried about the difference between the rural and the more urban. We have organisations that do a wonderful job in identifying skills needs, and we have a rather large employment-creating project on our doorstep, which is fantastically exciting, but even though we are thinking strategically and considering future skills needs, that is not strategic enough. We are doing all that against the backdrop of the accession eight countries, which presents one of the biggest problems that we face in rural areas. I would welcome the Minister’s comments on all of those points.

Tim Boswell (Shadow Minister, Work & Pensions; Daventry, Conservative)

I am pleased to follow the hon. Lady, who made some interesting and helpful contributions, the first of which was to bring a degree of enthusiasm to a subject that deserves more than cynicism. We need to realise that the Bill is about real people whom we are trying to help. That is not an unworthy aim for  politicians. It is sometimes unnecessary to claim that, but it is still important to feel it.

The hon. Lady stood up for rural areas. She will not be surprised if I respond to her on that. I know something of the coalfield communities, and I think that she made the point, by implication, that not all rural areas are affluent, and that they have difficulties. I was recently reading the report of the Government’s new rural advocate, Dr. Stuart Burgess, which says that there are problems with the ability to access a proper range of services, with transport, and with other issues we have discussed. I agree that, however well things are done at the centre, it sometimes seems as though the rural areas are somewhat in default. Will the Minister spend a moment of the Committee’s time talking about his approach to the projection of the system into rural areas?

The hon. Lady also talked about skills. I could join her in doing that and talk enthusiastically for the rest of the day on that subject, which is central to the debate. We have debated medical and quasi-medical conditions, but the issue is wider than that. All the work that I have seen, which includes the work of the National Institute of Adult Continuing Education, shows that participation in education, in the widest sense of the word—not necessarily narrowly vocational-specific activities, but activities from literacy to leisure and pastimes—is good in itself and good for people’s health. It involves interaction and affects confidence. The Minister will appreciate this, but we need to keep saying it: it is important that his Department and the Department for Education and Skills and others work together on these matters.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds rightly asks, is not all that happening? In a sense, formally it is, but the hon. Lady is right to put up her hand and say, “This really does matter in rural areas, and we have to be involved in it,” particularly where there are patterns of morbidity, distance and exclusion from the labour market, which there will be in some areas. I can find a few of my own that are not too clever.

The hon. Lady’s final point, about volunteering, is the one she made best. That is because of the enthusiasm with which she expressed her remarks. She talked about Derbyshire Dave, who wanted to get on with things and was prepared to do everything, but somehow the services did not come along. The important point is that he was fired up to do something. It occurs to me that the whole clause is about the negative, such as regulations and the conditions under which sanctions can be applied. Most of the debate has been not about the negative, but about helping people. I hope that it will stay that way.

I return to something that we have debated before, and make the only other point that I want to make on this clause. Many enthusiastic people who are already on incapacity benefit would like to work if the opportunity arose. That is where we start. Others—we have discussed them at some length during our debate on this clause—might not want to join the party and might ultimately come at least within the ambit of the idea of sanctions.

It seems important that we should emphasise the positive, not the negative, and one of the most important things is the individual’s motivation. Sadly, some people within the support allowance category will find it difficult to return to the labour market, and by definition no one in that category will find it easy. On the other hand, if they are willing volunteers they should be actively encouraged. Other people within the employment allowance category will be less active and less keen, and if resources are not unlimited—we will not reopen that issue—it may be important for Jobcentre Plus or the private contractors to go out to look for people who actively want to participate. A simple rubric that I will leave with the Committee is that it might be better, rather than having a conscript on the employment allowance, to have a willing volunteer on the support allowance.

Danny Alexander (Shadow Minister and Disability Spokesperson, Work & Pensions; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, Liberal Democrat)

I want to follow the comments made by the hon. Members for North-East Derbyshire and for Daventry, and to underscore for the Minister the importance of delivering such services and supporting people when they undertake work-related activity in rural areas. I represent some 5,000 square miles of the highlands and isles of Scotland, where the distances and—less so, these days—weather conditions, such as severe cold weather, make the strategic co-ordination of such activities incredibly difficult. I understand the point that the hon. Member for North-East Derbyshire made. In some ways, it is even stronger if one is talking about a few people up a mountain track up the Cairngorm mountains or Monadhliaths who, in some circumstances and because of a range of disadvantages, would be unable to take part in activities that are being promoted through a city strategy or any other urban-centred strategy. It is critical to reflect on the needs of people in sparsely populated rural areas, as I am sure the Minister will agree.

I am delighted that the Minister has come to Inverness to visit the “Unlock Your Potential” project, a joint effort between the SHIRLIE project, which is an extremely well-respected and successful voluntary organisation that promotes supported employment, and Jobcentre Plus in the highlands. Jobcentre Plus has shown commendable innovation in coming up with the ideas around the scheme. It is trying to deliver the sort of joined-up thinking in sparsely populated rural areas that the hon. Lady referred to. I hope that the Minister will confirm that that is part of the Government’s wider thinking for rural areas.

Jim Murphy (Minister of State (Work), Department for Work and Pensions; East Renfrewshire, Labour)

I will try to respond briefly to the reasonable points about skills and the wider debate that we have not as yet touched on. I will be quick.

My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire mentioned the importance of training and skills. To drive out poverty in a family, we need not only to get people into work but to sustain them in work and to enhance their skills. There is evidence that the most effective way to enhance skills is while someone is in work rather while they are out of work. The hon. Member for Daventry knows about these issues. I am not trying to belittle anyone who is taking other routes and engaged in other activity, but  analytically work is the most effective place for a customer to be to enhance their skills.

My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire is right to say that Sandy Leitch is working on a review at the Treasury’s behest. I had the opportunity to meet him along with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to discuss his emerging thinking and to seek to influence some aspects of his conclusions. I am happy to report that there is nothing that my hon. Friend has said today that Sandy Leitch would not agree with—I base that on my conversations with him. It is important to mention his work, and of course he will come to his own conclusions in his own time.

We may wish to reflect at another time on the role of skills coaches as well as personal advisers. On rural poverty, I would be happy to visit Inverness the next time that my family and I go to the excellent Conon Bridge hotel, which is in that part of the world. I do not know whether it was appropriate to say that, or to talk about its cheap weekend breaks. Anyway, the next time I am there with my family, I will—with my family’s indulgence, of course—take the opportunity to visit the projects that the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey mentioned.

On rural poverty and the rural dimension, there are all sorts of issues to do with transport. People in rural areas, particularly young folk, identify it as a key issue in respect of their connection to work and the opportunity to get out of poverty or to advance their aspirations. I was reminded of that again on a relatively recent visit to Jamie Oliver’s restaurant Fifteen in Newquay. The trainees there identified the importance of transport in a rural environment. It enables them to get to their workplace and to maintain themselves in work.

The cities strategy is important. It is about a consortium of people who have shared aspirations and a determination to work together. I have already mentioned Wales, which, to its credit, has stolen a march on the rest of the United Kingdom. In the rest of the UK, the strategy will be rolled out in the cities, but in Wales, as I have said, it will be rolled out in the heads of the valleys and in Rhyl. I do not know all the topography and terrain of that part of the world, but I do know that those places are not as yet major cities. We will have an opportunity to learn from the experiences, co-operative working and innovations of the consortiums, particularly in Wales, and use that knowledge in a further roll-out of the cities strategy. With those remarks, I invite the Committee to agree that clause 12 stand part of the Bill.